DTS/Dolby Digital pass-through from Sage DVD

[mcevers]

Someone else asked this in the forums yesterday, but it stands posting again. Is there some way to enable pass-through of the audio source from DVD playback, without passing it through a codec? If we have a sound card that supports spdif out, and a stereo system that supports DTS/Digital decoding, then we need to be able to configure Sage TV to do nothing to the signal. Either I am completely missing something, or there is no way to do this right now. I can install PowerDVD and it works fine when using that as the player, but no matter how I configure the audio renderer and audio decoder in Sage, the audio stream is decoded before passing through my spdif out. The result is that my stereo only does Dolby Pro-Logic.

[Narflex]

I'm looking for information on how this is done. If ANBODY has any information on this, PLEASE post it here. Thanks. :)

[White94Cobra]

This is a big one for me too. I've ripped a lot of my DVD's to DivX with AC3 audio. I have instant access to all of my movies, but I get no audio when playing them back via SageTV. It works fine in PowerDVD (except I get standard Dolby, instead of AC3). If Sage could pass-through the audio to my receiver, I could use SageTV for all of my HPTC stuff. Add a weather module and I could get rid of myHTPC!

[edmc]

Hmm... Just wanted to refer people to my other post at URL:

http://www.freytechnologies.com/forums/showthread.php?postid=9125#post9125

In short, for whatever reason, 5.1 passthru on the "default audio track" didn't work - even though SageTV reported that it was "English AC3 5.1". I "cycled" thru the various audio tracks and when I got back to the "English AC3 5.1" track, bingo!

Please be sure the Audio Filter you are using actually supports 5.1 (passthru or decoded). Audio Filters that come with the "stock" DVD Player S/W packages (e.g. the WinDVD that came with my DVD-ROM drive) don't have this feature.

One other point. For the C-Media 8738, you really have to hold your nose and run their silly mixer/config app and select 2-ch (yes, "2") and SP/DIF. Do not select "6-ch" - or any of the other speaker configurations.

That's it - hope my recipe works for everyone...

[corykim]

Will this help at all?

http://www.microsoft.com/whdc/hwdev/tech/audio/Non-PCM.mspx

[JJarmoc]

Dolby Digital and DTS both work fine on my system.

However, my machine is based on an nforce2 motherboard. This thing outputs everything as dolby digital or DTS. It even re-encodes windows sounds though obviously they only play in the stereo speakers. What I suspect is happening is that sage is decoding the stream, and my hardware is re-encoding it. At any rate, it works fine.

The PQ from SageTV using the Intervideo filters is impressive as well. It looks every bit as good as WinDVD and/or PowerDVD.

My one complaint with DVD playback so far is that the Hauppage remote doesn't work. Also, the HUD seems to have some functions which don't work/apply, but that's not a big deal.

If only sage supported HD and allowed me to launch a web browser from a button, it'd easily be the only app on my HTPC.

[mcevers]

Originally posted by JJarmoc
Dolby Digital and DTS both work fine on my system.

However, my machine is based on an nforce2 motherboard. This thing outputs everything as dolby digital or DTS. It even re-encodes windows sounds though obviously they only play in the stereo speakers. What I suspect is happening is that sage is decoding the stream, and my hardware is re-encoding it. At any rate, it works fine.

The PQ from SageTV using the Intervideo filters is impressive as well. It looks every bit as good as WinDVD and/or PowerDVD.

My one complaint with DVD playback so far is that the Hauppage remote doesn't work. Also, the HUD seems to have some functions which don't work/apply, but that's not a big deal.

If only sage supported HD and allowed me to launch a web browser from a button, it'd easily be the only app on my HTPC.

Be that as it may, I too have a machine with nvidia nforce audio, and it doesn't work for me at all.

[JJarmoc]

mcevers -

There's some settings in the control panel that specify how the Nforce audio will function. There's an applet in control panel called 'Soundstorm' that's the place to start.

Once you get there, go to the 'speaker setup' tab. I can't remember my exact settings, but I'm fairly sure my only selected options there are 'Dolby Digital Encoding' and Digital Output.

Note that without Analog output selected everything sent from the PC will be in Dolby Digital format. This seems to work out alright for me as TV shows still sound like stereo or pro-logic, and windows sounds still sound stereo. It seems that although the sound is re-encoded, the actualy contents are unchanged which is, IMO, perfect.

If you'd like, I can post my exact Soundstorm and WinDVD settings when I get home. I suspect the WinDVD audio settings might also be affecting the Intervideo codec's properties, since it's part of that application. It definitely took me a little trial and error to get DTS/DD working through WinDVD, but once those settings were done, Sage (using the Intervideo audio codec) worked fine on my first attempt.

[jptaz]

An important thing to note about the intervideo DVD filters is that it depends on which version
you get. Some versions that come with DVD drives etc do not support multi channel bypass. The version of WinDVD that is used must specifically support Multi Channel. The version of WinDVD4 I got with my audio card which specifically supports multi channel since my M-audio card has multi channel analog output and SPIDIF out.

[rrussell]

Anyone with any solutions for a Via EPIA M9000?

It has a digital out, and you can configure the system sounds to go through the SPDIF line instead of the normal speaker outs.

So SageTV, for example, outputs its sound through the SPDIF line.

When I run PowerDVD, I can tell it to use the SPDIF out and it will send the digital/DTS audio to the receiver correctly.

When I play a DVD using SageTV, though, I don't get the DTS audio. If I change the disc to use Dolby 2.0 (if available) then I will get sound, but naturally DTS would be preferable...

[edmc]

> Anyone with any solutions for a Via EPIA M9000?

As important as which Audio Filter you select is which Audio Renderer you select. Have you tried all your options? Particularly, have you tried the Waveout selection(s)?

[rrussell]

No - I just left that as "default."

I'll try the others tonight. Thanks!

[laurenglenn]

Originally posted by JJarmoc
Dolby Digital and DTS both work fine on my system.

However, my machine is based on an nforce2 motherboard. This thing outputs everything as dolby digital or DTS. It even re-encodes windows sounds though obviously they only play in the stereo speakers. What I suspect is happening is that sage is decoding the stream, and my hardware is re-encoding it. At any rate, it works fine.

If only sage supported HD and allowed me to launch a web browser from a button, it'd easily be the only app on my HTPC.
I just got an Asus A7n8x Deluxe board with the Soundstorm system you mentioned. This is one great motherboard. It does Dolby Digital encoding in real-time, has built-in LAN, USB 2.0, Firewire, SerialATA. It does so much that the only card I have in there besides my AGP card is my PVR-250....

Anyway, the SoundStorm will play all sounds in Dolby Surround if you enable Dolby Surround encoding also and set your speaker configuration to 6 spreakers (5.1)

Lauren

[rrussell]

Lauren - does that mean when you play a DVD, the system decodes the Dolby 5.1 signal from the DVD, then the SoundStorm re-encodes it to pass out to the amp?

Crazy! I love it ;)

[laurenglenn]

Originally posted by rrussell
Lauren - does that mean when you play a DVD, the system decodes the Dolby 5.1 signal from the DVD, then the SoundStorm re-encodes it to pass out to the amp?

Crazy! I love it ;)
It does unless you select SPDIF in your DVD player. The sound is amazing on this board. Just think.... for the price of an Audigy 2 card, you can get an amazing motherboard, have all sounds in real-time Dolby Digital, and actually have a good chipset for an AMD motherboard instead of the VIA chipset which has given me nothing but problems. :)

Lauren

[corykim]

I also have an nVidia motherboard. I believe that if you do not export directly to SPDIF using your DVD player software, SoundStorm will simulate 5.1 based on a stereo signal. For instance, when I play a DVD through Sage (which does not have direct SPDIF output), my audio imaging is incorrect.

[mcevers]

Narflex please respond and everyone else chill unless you can send screen shots of settings or pictures with proof that this is capable of working properly...

Several people responding to this thread seem to be totally missing the point, and others indicate fixes that either seem unbelievable or are otherwise not duplicated on two of my PC's under test.

Using either a Creative Labs SB Live card or a motherboard with integrated Nvidia Nforce audio, both having pure SPDIF digital outputs, I can install either PowerDVD 4.x or 5.x and play any DTS encoded DVD perfectly, in pure DTS, by outputting the raw digital signal from my sound chip directly to a Pioneer Home Theater Receiver that THEN decodes the raw signal to DTS via the PowerDVD's ability to do this signal "pass-through" without running the signal through and encoder.

In theory, I should be able to set SageTV up to play DVD's using the PowerDVD "codec" and somehow still be able to use this "pass-through" capability. Currently there is no setting in Sage (nor in Media Player) to do this.

Some people responding to this thread seem to think all I am after is a signal being passed through the SPDIF and still broadcast through a stereo system. The difference between qualities of Dolby Pro-Logic, which is the best I can currently achieve with Sage, vs. DTS, which is what I can achieve when I use PowerDVD, are like comparing night with day.

If anyone has figured out how to do this, and they are certain that:

1. Their home theater receiver SUPPORTS DTS...
2. The DTS light comes on when they play a DTS encoded DVD inside of the Sage DVD player

...then I and many others would like clear instructions on how they got it to work and if necessary, some screen shots.

Since there also seems to be no way to enable this feature in Media Player, then I would assume there is a feature that needs to be added to Sage to make this work properly....

[justme]

The difference between qualities of Dolby Pro-Logic, which is the best I can currently achieve with Sage, vs. DTS

Are you saying you can't get Dolby Digital encoded DVD's to playback using their native 5.1 encoding?
Yes I know the difference between "Dolby Digital" and "DTS". I think most of the confusion comes from the unfornate name of "Dolby Digital". It can easily lead someone who is using a SPDIF and listening to a Dolby Pro Logic soundtrack to beleive that is Dolby Digital. Actually my Amp only Supports "Dolby Digital" and not "DTS". Still I don't find this to be an issue since most DVD's come in "Dolby Digital". Until recently it was hard to find a DVD that even had DTS as an option.

So to expand mcevers question...
Has anyone gotten their AMP's "Dolby Digital" signal light to come on while playing back a 5.1* Dolby Digital DVD?

*Please ensure it is truely a 5.1 encoding as "Dolby Digital" can be used for stereo thru to 5.1 channels.

[mcevers]

If the Dolby Digital light or the DTS indicator doesn't light up on the amp, then all the amp is doing is turning the signal it is receiving over the SPDIF connector into a Pro-Logic signal.

That is NOT the desired behavior. Sage forces a setting for audio decoder. It should have the ability to ignore this setting and leave the audio signal untouched during DVD playback.

It doesn't matter much to me if I have to install a DVD software application that allows the feature to work properly, so long as Sage allows the pass through feature to work once an enabling player is installed. Ideally, of course, if Frey can figure out how to provide this pass-through capability without the need for another software application, that would be the best-case scenario.

It isn't much of a "Home Theater PC" if it doesn't sound like one. If this application is going to be a central point for all the entertainment features, the user shouldn't have to install and use another DVD application to enable true home theater sound as can be found on most of today's DVD's.

[edmc]

mcevers> Narflex please respond and everyone else chill unless you can send screen shots of settings or pictures with proof that this is capable of working properly...

justme> Setting aside DTS for a second.

justme> Are you saying you can't get Dolby Digital encoded DVD's to playback using their native 5.1 encoding?

Ignoring mcevers request that I just chill unless I can prove via screenshots that I'm getting 5.1 passthru, let me 2nd justme's comment.

I can assure you that I am getting 5.1 DD thru to my receiver. Yes, the light comes on. Seems to me no screen shot would prove that incidently :-) Are you asking me to take a picture of my Receiver's DD light? As I'm sure your aware, no amount of proof would be irrefutable by such logic.

But justme makes a great point. I also only have a DD-capable Receiver. DTS is not parsed by my Denon AVR-3200. But DD most certainly is. I cannot tell the difference between the audio sent via SageTV w/ PowerDVD Audio, ZoomPlayer w/ PowerDVD Audio, PowerDVD GUI directly, nor stand-alone AC3-capable DVD player.

Want proof - I give up there...

I will say this. To get 5.1 DD out of the PowerDVD Audio filters in ZoomPlayer, I needed to explicitly request that on the DVD Tab in ZoomPlayer Options. mcevers is quite correct that no such specific control seems available in Sage. What worked for me was to "cycle thru the Audio Tracks" just one time. Ever since then, Sage always plays the 5.1 DD track which my Receiver gets via the motherboard-based C-Media 8738 device's SP/DIF output.

Try playing around with the Control Panel of your driver. For me, I needed to both select 2-ch and SP/DIF. Yes, I said 2-ch, not the 5.1 option also on the C-Media Control Panel.

But please don't ask me for proof - unless you want to come over to Pleasanton for a demo :-). I know how frustration can make a skeptic out of anybody - I've been there many times...

[corykim]

My nVidia mobo outputs true Dolby Digital 5.1 whenever I play any audio source, even stereo MP3's. This does not, however, mean that I'm getting the actual audio mix engineered by the studio. What I'm getting is a live 5.1 mix, derived from stereo. My receiver is capable of the same effect -- when I play a stereo CD, it can create a 5.1 mix based on that.

Do not be fooled. If you listen critically, you will notice that the audio imaging is incorrect. It is especially noticeable if you do have TRUE 5.1 passthru for comparison. For example, I just played the Matrix DVD on both WinDVD and Sage. I used the lobby shooting spree scene as the sample. Using WinDVD and pass-thru enabled, the surround speakers play discrete sound effects, such as individual tiles cracking, individual shells tinkling to the floor, and individual bullets whizzing past.

When played through Sage, using the Intervideo Audio Decoder (not the Hauppauge one), the surround channels play a mix of the overall output. You can hear the music, and even dialog of on-screen characters (which should never be heard on the surround speakers). This is not Sage's fault -- this is the effect of the sound hardware remixing stereo and/or Dolby Pro Login into 5.1.

[justme]

Valid point about the possibility of Dynamic upmixing, instead of pass thru. Maybe a test segment is the only way to absolutely verify what is actually occuring. Some of us, like me, no longer have very good hearing. Does anyone here have the Software*/knowledge to make a test segment that would consist of of five truely distinct audio tracks? It could be something as simple as each audio track saying "center" , "rear left" etc repeatedly. By making each speakers audio so distinct someone could easily tell if their MB was dynamically upmixing.

Or maybe someone knows of a link to an existing test segment that is freely available. Granted to test it would require burning a disk, but to resolve this issue that seems like a small cost.

*I believe Sonic Foundry can do a 5.1(AC-3) mix. I say this because of an article about 5.1 mixing at this site. (http://www.5dot1.com/articles/ac-3_5_1_audio_onto_a_cd-r.html)

[laurenglenn]

In response to AC-3 in Windows Media Player, it is possible using an AC-3 codec you can download from www.doom9.org

Maybe Frey could use this to get AC-3 to output to the SPDIF. Their codec does work with AC-3. I've played AC3 files and even DiVx files with an AC-3 track in it.

I have yet to try this with Sage to see if it does send the AC-3/DTS signal direct to the SPDIF because I use PowerDVD directly to watch most DVDs.

Lauren

[JJarmoc]

When I get home tonight I'll run some of Avia's DD5.1 test patterns through sage DVD to verify whether I'm getting true DD or an upconverted stereo signal. To my ears, it sounds like DD so far, but this test should be pretty definitive. The receiver is definitely receiving a DD signal, but the thinking here is right in that it may not be the native DD off the DVD.

[JJarmoc]

Okay, here are my results. I ran the Avia 'channel identifcation' pattern through SageTV, playing the AC3, 5.1 track. This is title 6, chapter 2. It consists of a voice and tones going around each speakers in the setup.

The receiever picks up a DD signal, and I clearly hear the voice saying 'left front' 'center' 'right front' etc. as it and the tone move from channel to channel. When a tone is on a specific channel, it is not audible on the other channels at all. I verified this by disabling my center channel speaker, and confirming I do not hear the 'center' test.

I am convinced that what I am experiencing is discrete DD 5.1

In order to make my results reproducable I'll post some specifics about my setup.

SageTv Info
Audio decoder - Intervideo (from WinDVD platinum, with DD & DTS support.)
Audio renderer - Default - I'm not sure what is actually being used here. I have the following listed as other choices; Nvidia Nforce Audio, Default Directsound, Default Waveout, and Directsound; Nvidia Nforce Audio. Is there a way to confirm which is in use?

Nforce Control Panel Settings
6 speakers
Analog & Digital output enabled
Dolby Surround encoding enabled
Dolby Digital encoding enabled
Create Center Channel enabled (this is awesome for stereo sources)

Audio Driver Version; 5.10.2917.0
DirectX Version; 5.3.0000000.900

The other issue that may be affecting things is that I has this configured through Windvd & Zoom Player before Sage supported DVD playback. It may be one of the codec settings in WinDVD, or the filtergraph I created for Zoom Player that's causing it to work for me.

Good luck to you all. If anyone else has a similar system and wants more information about my ZP or WinDVD config, let me know.

[gplasky]

Let me post some information that might be a little more conclusive.

SageTv Info
Audio decoder - NVDVD (configured for SPDIF out by NVDVD player)
Audio renderer - Directsound; Nvidia Nforce Audio (We know this is going through the nForce chipset)

Nforce Control Panel Settings
6 speakers
Digital output enabled only-no analog
Dolby Surround encoding DISABLED (grayed-out because of no analog)
Dolby Digital encoding DISABLED (NOTICE THIS)
Create Center Channel enabled (this is awesome for stereo sources)
Create LFE effects (Even more awesome-great booming effects from sub)

This is all hooked up to my Sony DD 5.1/DTS receiver thru a coxial cable.

What do these settings prove?

Any sound now from my desktop shows up on the receiver as Stereo 2.0 PCM. (The nForce chipset is doing absolutely NO DIGITAL DECODING)

I fire up NVDVD player with Terminator 2-Special Edition. I start to play.
Artisian logo with sound and laser shots.-Blue Light DD 3/2
Cyberdyne/Menu screen-NO Blue Light DD 2/0
THX scene-Blue Light DD 3/2

I fire up Sage TV. I start to play.
Artisian logo with sound and laser shots.-Blue Light DD 3/2
Cyberdyne/Menu screen-NO Blue Light DD 2/0
THX scene-Blue Light DD 3/2

This shows me I am getting discrete DD 5.1 channel sound with SPDIF passthru from SageTV.

Now if I go back in my Soundstorm control panel and enable Digital decoding-what do I get? (I'm still doing SPDIF passthru.)

Any sound from my desktop-Blue Light DD 3/2
Artisian logo with sound and laser shots.-Blue Light DD 3/2
Cyberdyne/Menu screen-Blue Light DD 3/2
THX scene-Blue Light DD 3/2

If you enable Digital Decoding on the nForce sound chip it will process everything as DD 3/2 including DD 3/2.

To tell you the truth it sounds about the same.
But if you DISABLE the nForce from doing the Digital Decoding IT SOUNDS BETTER. The sound is clearer and more distinct.
But either way you get the correct sounds coming out of the correct speakers. Laser shots traveling around. The sound of liquid metal drops coming out of the rear speakers while the laser shots are coming out of the front and side to side.

I don't have the WinDVD Intervideo decoders so I couldn't test for DTS but I am positive it will come out the same. (I mean come on-I already have Intervideo Non-CSS, NVDVD, Sonic and Elecard)

My conclusion:
SageTV handles passthru from the SPDIF correctly. Playing a DVD in Sage TV with a correctly configured decoder that provides Digital Dolby 5.1 and is set for SPDIF passthru will give you full, discrete Digital Dolby 5.1 surround sound.

If you have any questions just let me know. Hope this helps settle this discussion thread.

Gerry

[mcevers]

OK. I finally got this to work, but had to give up on PowerDVD to make it work.

I downloaded a trial copy of NVDVD and when using the NVDVD codec and Nvidia DirectSound as renderer in SageTV, the audio signal is indeed properly passed to the receiver, allowing the receiver to recognize the DTS signal and decode it.

PowerDVD, for whatever reason, will not do it when I use that codec in SageTV.

I stand corrected. Evidently there is a hook of some sort that PowerDVD can use in its own audio codec that is not working when third party applications use the codec. The Kardatzke's are redeemed, but now I'm going to have to do a lot more testing of DVD software before choosing one.

Thanks everyone for the last few posts, and if I stepped on anyone's toes, I'm sorry. That wasn't my intention.

[gplasky]

Good Point mcevers. I should have carried my testing all the way through. After reading your post it dawned on me, With the SPDIF connection, PASSTHRU is PASSTHRU. That is, I don't need a codec that supports DTS. Playing my Gladiator DVD in DTS does indeed show up as DTS on my receiver. Only if I was doing analog out would I need to be concerned if my codec supported DD or DTS because at that point the codec is doing the decoding. When I am doing passthru all the processing is done on my receiver. I tested my Sonic decoder and this works properly too. So it appears there is a problem with the PowerDVD codec properly passing the signal thru. Unless someone can show otherwise. :p


Gerry

[corykim]

I'm happy to report that with the NVDVD codecs, I am getting perfect DTS passthrough. Thanks for the info. One oddity that I noticed, though, is that the video is a little brighter when played through Sage than when played through NVDVD itself. Any ideas?

[gplasky]

Would it be the Hauppauge drivers affecting this? And would the options to change this be available through the advanced video (or whatever it's called) through detail settings? Just a thought.


Gerry

[corykim]

I tried manipulating the settings you're talking about, and while they affect my recordings, they have no effect on DVD output. Thanks for trying, though. :-)

[rrussell]

Quick update - I tried the NVDVD codecs and got a pretty hairy BSOD whenever anything video (either Sage or the DVD app itself) tried to play.

Oh well. El-remove-o of the NVDVD package-o.

(This was on a Via M9000, which admittedly has not got an nVidia bone in its body. I'm thinking that might've had something to do with it...)

(edited to add...)

Before I removed it, though, I tried the Cyberlink video decoder with the NVidia audio decoder, and the "Default Wave Out" audio renderer. NO digital pass-thru.

[gplasky]

Hmmm-don't you need to use a directshow filter to support spdif passthru? I didn't think wave out supported the spdif passthrough. I would think you would need to choose your default directshow device to get spdif passthru.



Gerry.

[rrussell]

"show" for audio?

Eh, ok, it's worth a shot. DYM for the decoder or the renderer? (Or both?)

Thanks!
R

[gplasky]

Just the audio renderer.

Gerry

EDIT: Sorry it is Directsound.

[mlbdude]

Anyone figure out how to use AC3Filter with Sage?

http://ac3filter.sourceforge.net/

[Narflex]

in the properties file, for the videoframe/additional_audio_filters= property, add to it:

AC3FilterName,FilterInputPin,FilterOutputPin

You'll need to get those names from GraphEdit for the AC3 filter. Then you should be able to select it in Sage and it should work.

[robn]

There was a question on how to programatically pass the AC3 stream .. I found two things.

First is the following - referring to progromatic passthrough:

Ways to Get AC3 Passthrough

There are two ways to get AC3 passthrough. The first way is for developers to use Creative's AC3API.DLL. The other way is to use a non-PCM wave output feature in Microsoft's Windows sound API to output compressed Dolby Digital or DTS signal that is read of DVD or files encoded with surround sound.

Found on: http://alive.singnet.com.sg/tech/passthrough.htm

There is also a nice AC3 filter that was written and located on Sourceforge. The project has been idle since the end of 2003, but there code can do the passthrough. Since it is open source it might give some ideas.

Found: http://www.softnews.ro/public/cat/11/1/2/11-1-2-60.shtml

Hope this helps (or is still needed :) ).

Robert


:goodjob:

[robn]

This is answer is proably obvious, but I am missing it .. sorry. When you say cycle through the audio tracks, do you mean to go to the dvd menu and choose the various options (DTS, Dolby 5.1, etc..?). Or is there a method in sage to do the cycling?

I would love to try it as I am still having little luck getting the little light on the receiver to switch from stereo to Dolby Digital.

thanks!

Robert

[stanger89]

Well just to make everybody envious, DD/DTS work just fine passed through my Revo to my receiver with the Sonic Cineplayer Decoders. If you're using Sonic decoders just make sure you have SPDIF output selected in the Audio Options.

OTOH, I know the WinDVD filters are kind of funny check out my post here:
http://forums.sage.tv/forums/showthread.php?postid=11975#post11975
It links to the AVS forum (which may or may not be up right now). Don't know what to tell you PDVD folks, but it's probably a similar issue to WinDVD.