Support now possible for ATI All-In-Wonder products?

[Lester Jacobs]

Since Windows Media Center 2004 is now officially available and along with that the official release of the ATI All-In-Wonder Encode, will Sage TV now soon be supporting users of the ATI All-In-Wonder cards?

For those who have not been following this, ATI's All-In-Wonder Encode is a software component for their All In Wonder cards which makes them compatible with Microsoft's Media Center. This should, by the same token, make All-In-Wonder cards compatible with SageTV since the All-In-Wonder Encode appears to be simply a software "wrapper" which emulates a hardware encoder.

So, any plans to build in offcial support for ATI All In Wonder cards?

Regards
Lester

[JasonJoel]

We want AIW support. We want AIW support.

Seriously though, that would be really handy as an option. Not to mention it would open the product to a much wider audience!

If it is good e nough for WinXP MCE, it should be good enough for SageTV (as well as the other PVRs on the market..)

Jason


Originally posted by Lester Jacobs
Since Windows Media Center 2004 is now officially available and along with that the official release of the ATI All-In-Wonder Encode, will Sage TV now soon be supporting users of the ATI All-In-Wonder cards?

For those who have not been following this, ATI's All-In-Wonder Encode is a software component for their All In Wonder cards which makes them compatible with Microsoft's Media Center. This should, by the same token, make All-In-Wonder cards compatible with SageTV since the All-In-Wonder Encode appears to be simply a software "wrapper" which emulates a hardware encoder.

So, any plans to build in offcial support for ATI All In Wonder cards?

Regards
Lester

[mlbdude]

Not sure if this is a good thing since software encoding is so CPU intensive it may cause lots of problems for new users, but it would be good for Sage to be able to say it supports the ATI cards.

I am more curious about this new E-HOME WONDER that ATI has. They claim it is a hardware encoding card.

[SHS]

I belive the ATI E-Home Wonder = ATI All-In-Wonder just like the Hauppauge WinTV-PVR 250 = Hauppauge Freestyle.

[JasonJoel]

Yeah, the real usefulness would depend on the actual CPU usage...

BUT, I saw an article that if I read it right (translated from Chinese - I'll try to find it again later tonight) the CPU usage using ATI AIW Encoder was only ~15-20% on a P4-2.4GHz... That wouldn't be bad.

IF that is true that would be cool. :) Time will tell though... Was hard to tell exactly what resolution, etc. they were using in that article.

Jason


Originally posted by mlbdude
Not sure if this is a good thing since software encoding is so CPU intensive it may cause lots of problems for new users, but it would be good for Sage to be able to say it supports the ATI cards.

I am more curious about this new E-HOME WONDER that ATI has. They claim it is a hardware encoding card.

[Narflex]

In ATI's initial press release for AIW Encode they mention that it requires a Hyperthreading CPU to do it. So its still pretty limiited in who could use it.

[Lester Jacobs]

Been doing a bit of reading on the green button forums and it seems that the hyperthreading CPU is not a technical requirement but simply a performance requirement. I was timeshifting with my ATI AIW card (simultaneous encoding and decoding of MPEG-2) using the included MMC software and was using around 50% of CPU on my 2Ghz Pentium 4. Therefore, assuming that the ATI Software Encode is around the same usage then one should be able to use an AIW by itself or in combination with one or two PVR-250s without too much of a problem.

In addition, it looks like ATI will be shortly doing a limited release of the ATI Software Encode to vendors. Therefore perhaps Frey Technologies could email ATI and get on the list to be sent the encoder. Support for the ATI solution would definitely do a lot to sway some Snapstream users.

Regards
Lester

[JasonJoel]

Please, please, please, please?

Jason

[Lester Jacobs]

Here is a link where OEMs and developers can get their hands on the ATI software encoder. Looks like this is more geared to the Frey guys themselves as a PVR developer than to us users. It would be great if they would pursue this. The link provides details on how to obtain the ATI software encoder.

ATI Software Encoder Beta (http://www.rage3d.com/board/showthread.php?s=&threadid=33719718)

Cheers
Lester

[Crazedz]

I think requirement 1 iliminates anybody who doesn't have an MCE box which is most of us.

"To participate, you must:

1. Be a licensed MCE user, either through MSDN or ownership of an OEM MCE PC."

2. Fill out and submit the ATI CATALYST TEAM BETA application.

3. Fill out and return a specific Beta License Agreement (sort of a NDA too)

4. Have appropriate hardware and specific and articulated goals for what you want to accomplish with ATI+MCE.

It seems their only interested in getting into MCE box's with this so ss and sage appearently aren't even on their radar. More than likely they won't even release this to the general public but only in oem mce box's with the encoder and software tuner.

Ya know i really like this line

ATI is being very liberal on the goals requirements as they realize that those folks on these boards, while often more "hobbyist" or "enthusiast" than potential "partner" or "OEM", have some fantastic ideas and the know-how to make some truly fantastic things work. Still, if you want to join the ENCODE BETA, you ought to have a genuine marketable goal for your experiments beyond having a really cool homebuilt MCE box.


That's liberal? Very liberal even?

[Lester Jacobs]

Originally posted by Crazedz
...Still, if you want to join the ENCODE BETA, you ought to have a genuine marketable goal for your experiments beyond having a really cool homebuilt MCE box...

This is where Sage/Frey comes in. They have a genuine marketable goal. Granted that the wording of the document is MCE specific however I think this is lack of knowledge on the part of the poster. He probably doesn't know about SageTV. So, if ATI were approached by Frey I'm sure they'd quickly realize that Frey had a genuine product and would be willing to let Frey in on the beta.

Regards
Lester

[Crazedz]

Well that would depend on wheather or not they intend to release the encoder software to the general public or only put it out on MCE machines.

If they only want to release it for OEM MCE machines then it would be pointless to have Frey's help develop it as the sage public wouldn't be able to legally obtain the software. However it is possible they could release it to the general public for a price and make even more money than they would by just putting it on OEM MCE box's.

But i think that the ATI software tuner cards even with this encoder wrapper would still be buggy, Unstable and from what i have seen so far require fast machines to work half way decently. 50% usage on a 2 gig machine for 1 tuner isn't what id call all that usefull for most.

Personally i would rather Frey's not get involved with this then to end up with people useing ati software cards with this wrapper comming on all the time posting about problems with sage crashing all the time on them etc.....

It would just be more hassle than it's worth for outdated unstable cards that should have been thrown in the trash already anyway or recycled to begin with. They were fine for their day but as we are seeing their day is passing and it's past time they did.

Sorry for voiceing such a strong opinion on that but that's just my opinion and shouldn't be taken as a representation of Frey's, ATI, Hauppauge or any of the other members of the Frey's forums other than my own. <----- Legal Disclaimer <--- Notice of legal disclaimer <---- Notice of notice of legal...........

I'll step down from the soapbox now.

[batorok]

I have to agree, sage has made itself on a very low cpu usage multiple tuner product. even if you could encode at 20-30% cpu usagewith an ATI, doing much else on the machine may degrade quality, and you couldn't add multple ati cards at that rate, one of the main advantages of sagetv.

I myself am more interested in getting nvidia's hardware encoder for MCE in the hands of Freytechnologies--more competition in the high quality hardware encoder market is good for users.

[Narflex]

Nvidia hardware encoder? Where'd you see information on that?

[SHS]

Jeff the nVidia MCE TV PCI Tuner has has adopt the DVxplore from LSI Logic and it also a using RF Silicon Tuner Solution which could be MicroTune MT2050 series or the new Philips RF Silicon Tuner.

[Liunam]

Is is possible to use an ATI All-In-Wonder Rage 128 as the video card/2nd tuner to a WinTV PVR?

[batorok]

Originally posted by Narflex
Nvidia hardware encoder? Where'd you see information on that?

"NVIDIA’s comprehensive Media Center product suite includes GeForce™ FX graphics, NVIDIA nForce™ media and communications processors, and the NVIDIA MCE TV, a hardware MPEG-2 encode PCI tuner card. Each component is designed to provide the most compatible, stable, and reliable platform for experiencing digital entertainment applications."

from here:
http://www.nvidia.com/object/IO_8931.html

I'm impressed with the details SHS is able to provide, thought they don't mean much to me. here's another link, which explains it's a card sized for small form factor pcs, something sagetv users might like.
http://drs.yahoo.com/S=2766679/K=NVIDIA+MCE+TV/v=2/SID=e/l=WS1/R=1/H=0/*-http://biz.yahoo.com/prnews/030930/sftu057_1.html

I'd like Sagetv to look into the nvidia product simply because nvidia is pretty good about driver updates and support. At the retail level Hauppauge needs some competition in the hardware encoding arena, but I don't see nvidia releasing this product to retail when they have their personal cinema line of products.

[drbenson]

Hmm- I happen to have an AIW, and after installing Sage and a WinTV-PVR-usb2, Sage recognized the AIW and offered to install it as a second tuner. Sage accepts instructions to record two shows on two separate channels. I seem to be able to watch live TV on the AIW through Sage.

I haven't actually had a two-tuner record come up yet. I naively thought all was OK.

What can I expect when the first dual-tuner record comes up this evening? Will my HTPC blow up? Will the WinTV recording occur, but not the AIW? Will AIW crash Sage and prevent either recording? Or am I the first (in my ignorance) to try this?

[JasonJoel]

I think you're the first.. Let us know what happens! I have an AIW too, but not in my SageTV server machine, so never thought to try it.

Jason

Originally posted by drbenson
Hmm- I happen to have an AIW, and after installing Sage and a WinTV-PVR-usb2, Sage recognized the AIW and offered to install it as a second tuner. Sage accepts instructions to record two shows on two separate channels. I seem to be able to watch live TV on the AIW through Sage.

I haven't actually had a two-tuner record come up yet. I naively thought all was OK.

What can I expect when the first dual-tuner record comes up this evening? Will my HTPC blow up? Will the WinTV recording occur, but not the AIW? Will AIW crash Sage and prevent either recording? Or am I the first (in my ignorance) to try this?

[drbenson]

It *will* be kinda interesting- the Encode software mentioned above is included in the drivers I'm using. The ATI website hype says their software encoder uses the same amount of CPU load as a hardware encoder on a 2.4ghz Pentium, and the load is LESS (as % of CPU used) with a faster chip, while the hardware CPU load remains constant.

This evening's test will be on an Athlon XP 2000+. I will let all and sundry know what happens.

[JasonJoel]

Nevermind.. Just tried it.

It would let me configure the AIW as an encoder, but as soon as it tried to use it to view Live TV or record it gave an error.

So, doesn't look like it works.. Didn't think it did, but thought I would try it anyway.

I still think it is REALLY stupid that Sage TV doesn't support this. Yes it uses more CPU than hardware encoder, but the picture quality is VERY good, there is a large install base, and darn it - it should be up to the user if they want to use a software encoder (even if just a limited number like AIW cards), not Frey.

Jason

Originally posted by drbenson
It *will* be kinda interesting- the Encode software mentioned above is included in the drivers I'm using. The ATI website hype says their software encoder uses the same amount of CPU load as a hardware encoder on a 2.4ghz Pentium, and the load is LESS (as % of CPU used) with a faster chip, while the hardware CPU load remains constant.

This evening's test will be on an Athlon XP 2000+. I will let all and sundry know what happens.

[drbenson]

Since mine did let me view live TV, I figure I'll give it a shot this evening. YMMV, and all that. At least I'll post the error message(s) for the Sage people to peruse.

I agree that Sage should support the AIW, if feasible. There are lots of 'em out there, and the barrier of entry would be so much lower if people who had them could buy the Sage software without hundreds more in hardware costs.

I would really be interested if someone from Sage could enlighten us on their thinking about this- is it because of a geek prejudice against software encoding of any kind, or are there insurmountable technical issues?

[Lester Jacobs]

Originally posted by drbenson
Since mine did let me view live TV, I figure I'll give it a shot this evening. YMMV, and all that. At least I'll post the error message(s) for the Sage people to peruse.

I agree that Sage should support the AIW, if feasible. There are lots of 'em out there, and the barrier of entry would be so much lower if people who had them could buy the Sage software without hundreds more in hardware costs.

I would really be interested if someone from Sage could enlighten us on their thinking about this- is it because of a geek prejudice against software encoding of any kind, or are there insurmountable technical issues?

This sounds promising! Please keep us updated. I think I am one of the few pro-ATI voices on this board. Maybe if we can show some initial success in your rig then things might change....


Cheers
Lester

[dkardatzke]

Our decision was based around providing the best solution out of the gate. From there we will expand support for other cards and software based encoding cards. However this support will not occur until after version 2.0 is released.

Adding support for cards like ATI will cause a need for more technical support so we need to make sure we are ready for that expansion before we go down that path. We fully understand the size of the market but we don't want to get ahead of the current plan right now with version 2.

[drbenson]

Thanks for the response. No doubt you *would* have more support questions from n00b users if you supported the AIW. I hope after the push for 2.0 is complete the larger market would justify adding some tech support.

If a fairly tech savvy beta tester with a Sage / Hauppage / AIW testbed would help move things along, please let me know.

By the way, for those who are interested, I'm still playing with the new AIW drivers and may have more info / completed test recording over the weekend. Time is limited....

[rkn555]

software encoders and usb devices may work for encoding.
but nowhere near what hardware devices can accomplish in quality.
if your pc hiccups while loading photoshop or checking your email or even when just starting musicmatch jukebox... then when you have sagetv running in the background recording something(while using an AIW or usb interface)
you know what happens to the recording ? it hiccups too.

[JasonJoel]

Ok, I'll shut up after this. I'm starting to sound like a broken record.

Everyone talks about 'stutters' with software encoders... And that CAN be true, but I've tested this extensively on MY dedicated PVR server (these are only MY results on MY machine, yours may vary).

I record things using my ATI AIW video card in software ALL THE TIME on the same machine as my Sage TV server.

I RARELY ever have even one stutter in an hour long show. RARELY.

I've even tested recording with my ATI AIW at the same time I record with TWO PVR250's. So 3 simultaneous recordings, 2 hardware one software. Works beautifully.

So for those of us with dedicated PVR servers, software encoding CAN be a very cheap, useful, and good quality way to add another encoder.

I just want the OPTION to do this in the software. If you don't want to use it, fine. But for those of us that do, and can reliably it would be a SUPER feature.

I understand this will not be in for v2.0, but I would really like to see it considered for a future version.

Jason


Originally posted by rkn555
software encoders and usb devices may work for encoding.
but nowhere near what hardware devices can accomplish in quality.
if your pc hiccups while loading photoshop or checking your email or even when just starting musicmatch jukebox... then when you have sagetv running in the background recording something(while using an AIW or usb interface)
you know what happens to the recording ? it hiccups too.

[Lester Jacobs]

Originally posted by JasonJoel
...I've even tested recording with my ATI AIW at the same time I record with TWO PVR250's. So 3 simultaneous recordings, 2 hardware one software. Works beautifully...
Jason

I did this exact same test a few days ago (record on AIW at the same time as Sage was recording) and also had no problem. As Jason says it can be done and its proven in actual practical tests on both his system and mine. Therefore it is likely that it will work for many others as well.

Even when I've got the AIW encoding process to hiccup or stutter, it never loses sync. The hiccuping is no worse than the video glitches that sometimes affect the PVR 250s.

Actually, what surprises me is that the AIW never loses sync and it's a software encoder whilst Sage using my old Creative DVCR card (now relegated to my test machine) which is a hardware encoder goes in and out of sync all the time. So here's one example of a hardware encoder actually performing worse than a software encoder.

Regards
Lester

[reesd]

For what its worth, I have an AIW 128 Pro (forgot I even had it to be honest) and I am about to pull the trigger on a SnapStream purchase because SS and AIW are working great for me after a week of testing.

Based on discussions, PVRX50 is obviously a better solution, but I don't want to spend the cash unless it means HDTV support. I looked at the Sage and AccessDTV, but playback stutters are keeping me away for now.

So that is at least one sale lost due to AIW support (though I could easily buy Sage later to be honest).

My suggestion? Support AIW/software at the same level you "support" the AccessDTV. Post some random drivers in a newsgroup. That will allow dedicated users to try it out, but isolate you from all the AIW users who don't have the basic skills you want in your user community yet. Of course they do have $, but its your company and your cost/revenue call....

d