Building my first PVR, Which card to buy.. PVR 250 & Xcard?

[Fastrack]

Hi all,

For the last month I've been doing some research into which PVR card to buy. I want the BEST TV output quality.

I won't want this box to have a monitor, I want to control everything via the TV.

The current box I will use to do this is a PIII 450 (Yes it's old.. .I may upgrade it.. but that's not in the plans right now). It does have 512Mb's of a ram. and a Geforce1 with 32MB DDR ram.

I was first bought a ATI All-In-Wonder 9000 but have returned it, cause i'm not pleased with the TV Tuner or the Video out!!

Then I read on this board that Matrox G400 has AMAZING TV video out quality, so I figured that plus a PVR 250 would be the best bet. The question is, will my system be able to handle the load? IE can I use the Pause Live TV option etc...??

The other option is a PVR 250 & Xcard, but I want to beable to view the windows desktop for TV listings etc...

Maybe what I want to is not possible.

Thanks for all the help
:jump:

Ben

[pcuoco]

I have just finished setting up my HTPC with a slow processor as well (PIII 650). I'm using a PVR 350 and the Matrox G400.

The TV out is excellent with the G400, and the CPU load during Live TV with software decoding and the registry hack on the Default codecs is about 40 to 50%. It may be pushing it with a PIII 450, but if it plays DVD's fine you should be okay.

When Sage 2.0 comes out it will support OSD on the hardware output of the 350. I'll switch to that to lower my CPU load even more and use the G400 output with software decoding for DVD's only. That may be another option for you.

Hope this helps.

[stanger89]

Well, the 250 produces almost no load on the CPU while recording, but a 450 might be a little lean for playing the recordings back. I'd suggest you look at a PVR 350. With V2 of SageTV Jeff has promised the SageTV UI will be able to be output over the 350's TV out. That would probably give you the best video quality as well as low CPU utilization. You won't be able to view the windows desktop through the 350 but SageTV has it's own listings (most of the reason for SageTV) so you won't need to leave Sage to view listings. Also there's no telling what people will come up with for plugins with Sage V2, maybe someone will integrate a web browser.

Your other option would be to get a 350 for SageTV and use the TV out on your video card into another input on the tv for Windows desktop.

Just curious if you're using a standard TV or an HDTV since this is probably not the best solution for an HDTV.

[Fastrack]

I'm have a 38" normal TV. Not an HDTV.

My main problem is I would prefer not to have 2 video cards with TV out!

But it looks like I can't have my cake and eat it too :)

I currently don't have a video card with Video out

Am I correct in assuming with the PVR 350 or Xcard when you switch channels you see nothing?

Or is the Xcard not good for Live tv at all? Only playing back pre-recorded videos??

Yes this system plays store bought DVDs perfectly. But that may be because of the GeForce card, not sure how it would be with a G400.

[GbrNole]

i'd like to know the merits of the digital video connection port of the xcard. when connected to a capable video card such as an older geforce etc. will this allow for overlays etc?

i'd love to be able to use an xcard in an asus pundit box for component video out. the 9500 and up may be better with the dongle but the xcard is hella cheaper and a bit more flexible in this regard.

[Fastrack]

pcuoco, you say your using a PVR 350... Does this mean it's using the Hardware decoding of the PVR 350?

Or is Sage using Software decoding?? Or is it using the hardware decoding on the PVR 350 and piping it out the G400. If so I didn't think this was possible?

Ben

[stanger89]

Originally posted by Fastrack
I'm have a 38" normal TV. Not an HDTV.

My main problem is I would prefer not to have 2 video cards with TV out!

But it looks like I can't have my cake and eat it too :)

I currently don't have a video card with Video out

Am I correct in assuming with the PVR 350 or Xcard when you switch channels you see nothing?

Not sure what you mean here.

Or is the Xcard not good for Live tv at all? Only playing back pre-recorded videos??

Everything you see with Sage is already recorded. Even with "Live TV" Sage is recording as you go an just playing what was just recorded. However currently the 350 is the only card with a hardware decoder that will for sure display the Sage UI.

Both the 350 and Xcard can only display video and OSDs specifically made for them.

Yes this system plays store bought DVDs perfectly. But that may be because of the GeForce card, not sure how it would be with a G400.

Since you say your system plays DVD's fine I'd suggest getting a 250 and a Geforce FX 5200 with TV out. Over at the AVS forum, the 5200 has been praised for it's TV out quality, and then you wouldn't have to worry about the limited output capabilities of the 350 or Xcard.

[mlbdude]

Using a Matrox card (not sure about the 400) you will get similar video quality to an XCard and 350 since you should be able to ouput the video interlaced properly to your normal TV. stanger89 is right if you can play DVD's you should be ok playing back unencrypted MPEG2 files.

If you are not pleased with the 9000's video out you may be in a bind with either ATI or nVidia. All of the newer cards offer similar output quality. If you are super picky about quality then stick with the Matrox or the 350. The XCard would be good but who knows when OSD will be supported for that.

[pcuoco]

Fastrack,

I'm not using the hardware out of the 350 yet. I'm waiting for version 2 so I can still have the OSD.

Currently I'm using the Sage software decoding (Intervideo nonCSS software decoder with registry hack), outputting to the TV from the G400 in clone mode. This allows me to use the menu's and OSD and not have a separate computer monitor hooked up.

The Matrox cards are the only video cards with other than hardware decoders that output a true interlaced image (I believe, I'm sure someone will correct me if I'm wrong) which gives an excellent image. The 350 hardware decoded image is only slightly better, and I can't tell the difference from straight cable when encoding at 3GB per hour, with either solution.

[Opus4]

Fasttrack,

I recently went through the process of setting up a P2-400 for use w/SageTV. You can see what I ended up with in this thread: http://forums.freytechnologies.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=1909

I was going to suggest that you get at least 1 tuner and get started, but then I noticed you said you do not currently have any TV out capability. Obviously, the input side of the equation will not use much cpu time -- the hardware encoding on the 250/350/USB2/etc takes care of that. However, your output capability will determine just how high a level of encoding quality you can use. For example: I prefer encoding at 3GB/hour, but my slow machine didn't handle decoding that in software very well. The GeForce FX 5200 was mentioned above... if that has some hardware assist, it might work just fine for you. You said you can play back DVDs w/o a problem... I don't know what encoding rate a DVD is equivalent to, but DVDs played fine on my system w/o the Xcard, but that 3GB/hour recording did not, as I said.

Oh wait -- you could easily get started w/one tuner by seeing how well your current video card plays recordings via software encoding -- it would simply be on your monitor instead of the TV. That should at least tell you whether your cpu will handle it or if you would be much better off w/a hardware decoder.

Don't forget that there is at least one big downside to the 350 -- you can't use it to play DVDs. Also, the Xcard has more output connection options - svideo, composite, component, etc.

Regarding having the OSD on the Xcard, the thread talking about
displaying the OSD on the 350 (http://forums.freytechnologies.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=1638) also mentions the possibility of OSD support being added to the Xcard, though I have seen no comment that promises that it will be available in version 2.

If you absolutely do not want a computer monitor near the TV, then I think you _have_ to use a video card, not the 350 or Xcard. As was also mentioned above, if your TV has the inputs available, you could run your video card & 350/Xcard both to the TV. There is no way to get around having 2 output cards if you do choose the 350 or Xcard.

You asked about live TV on the Xcard: actually, everything in Sage is recorded, even 'live' TV. You are always playing back from a recording... it boils down to this: yes, you can watch live TV on the Xcard through Sage.

- Andy

[Fastrack]

Thanks for all the replies,

I think you might have a good idea. Just order the PVR 250 and see how that performs on my monitor.

Now is their any reason to get the PVR 350 over the Xcard? The 350 is $60 more at Amazon then the 250, compared to $89 for the Xcard. And the Xcard supports more formats.

I think your right I may have to go the dual output route

And I did read your thread, that's where I got the idea for the xcard :D

Thanks
:goodjob:

Update: Just checked amazon and they don't seem to have the PVR 350 in stock, and the PVR 250 is $10 more then it was yesterday unless I'm seeing things...

[Opus4]

Originally posted by Fastrack
Now is their any reason to get the PVR 350 over the Xcard? The 350 is $60 more at Amazon then the 250, compared to $89 for the Xcard. And the Xcard supports more formats.


Well... the 350 also has a tuner, so that is always a plus. :)

Hmmm -- you tried and returned one card already. Did they charge any sort of restocking fee? If not, go get the 5200 that someone else suggested -- it is less than $100 & there is another thread that mentions it has hardware assisted decoding. Maybe it will do the job for you, even at higher bit-rate encoding settings. You'll be able to get the desktop output to the TV & possibly solve video playback as well.

- Andy

P.S. ... and you can get the 250 bundled w/SageTV for less than buying the 250 at Amazon & SageTV at... well... the "Sage Store".

[stanger89]

Originally posted by Fastrack
Now is their any reason to get the PVR 350 over the Xcard? The 350 is $60 more at Amazon then the 250, compared to $89 for the Xcard. And the Xcard supports more formats.
...

You will need a 250 or 350 (or similar) to use SageTV, both are TV tuner cards with hardware encoders. The 350 is basically a 250 with a hardware decoder and TV out on it. Now the Xcard is only a hardware decoder, so even if you get that you'll still need to get a 250.

The reasons you might want a 350 over an Xcard+250 are:
Its a single card as opposed to two.
The Sage will be able to output its UI over the 350 with V2, no guarantees when that might happen with the Xcard.
$60 more for the 350, $90 more for the Xcard.

Reasons you might want the Xcard+250 over a 350:
More formats supported/DVDs are easier to play (you can with the 350 it's just tricky).

[Fastrack]

Hey there's a computer shop up here in Canada that can order both the Xcard & PVR 250 for me!!!.. Wooohoo... I've decided just to get the PVR card for now, and if needed buy the Xcard.

Anyway...

Is there ANY way I can tell if I'm getting the OLD black remote in the box or the NEW silver one?

Can they tell before they order it from their supplier by a product # or something?

Is model # 980 the new silver remote or was the old model also a 980??

:coffee:

Thanks

Ben

[Xleon]

Reasons you might want the Xcard+250 over a 350:
More formats supported/DVDs are easier to play (you can with the 350 it's just tricky).


and


* The output quality is much better

* You can use JovePlayer on the XCard !

* It can scale to various output formats up tp 1920 x 1024 (I'll have to double check on the exact figures)

* Can play DivX / Xvid natively

* Can output RGB / Composite / SVHS / Component

* Handles NTSC / PAL / SECAM and everything in between

[Fastrack]

Thanks for all the replies!...

Does Jove Player support the PVR 250 remote? :confused:

I will order the Xcard if my system can't handle the load when using the G400.

Thanks for all the help!

Ben

[Opus4]

Originally posted by Fastrack

Does Jove Player support the PVR 250 remote? :confused:

I will order the Xcard if my system can't handle the load when using the G400.


I installed JovePlayer for a short time & remember using a remote, but I believe it was the remote that came with the Xcard. I didn't care for JovePlayer, since it seemed to cause a conflict with Sage where every time I ran Jove (and, yes, exited it too), I had to reboot my machine in order to get Sage to be able to use the 250 again. JovePlayer seemed to grab the card & not let it go. So... could this have been solved if I worked at it long enough? Possibly, but I didn't find it useful enough to spend the time. I saw Jove touted as a great way to play DVDs, but the Xcard's Xmedia Player works for me (luckily?) for that purpose, w/o conflicting with SageTV's recording ability. And, as long as only Sage _or_ Xmedia Player are active at one time (Sage: awake; Xmedia: running), there was no output conflict.

Just be aware that the Xcard still can't display the SageTV OSD, if that is critically important to you. I asked that question in response to a definitive "yes" that the 350 will support the OSD in version 2, but have received no answer yet at the time I am writing this note... (It isn't critical for me, but would be nice.)

- Andy

[Fastrack]

Opus4,

That makes sense. I have decided to give it a shot just using the PVR 250 & G400.

If it doesn't work out, I'm going to purchase the XCard. And have 2 outputs connected! What a pain :)

Has anyone tried making a Parallel port controlled SVideo Switch? IE maybe a program which can change the input from a button on the remote or something?

I've controlled relays etc.. from the parallel port. The only problem I see is SVideo is quite a few wires... Maybe something I'll look into :goodjob:

Thanks all

Ben

[mlbdude]

Let me know how the video ouput quality is with the G400. I am constantly told how much better it is but have never been able to try myself. I may look into getting a newer Matrox if it is worth it.

[mikejaner]

I've tried the G400, and it's about the same as my Geforce 4 card with quality.

mikejaner

[mlbdude]

The quality I am speaking of is being able to use their DVD Max feature and output a fully interlaced movie in the proper sync format and not so much the desktop quality. Matrox is the only video card so far that is able to do this.

I have a GF4200 too was not too happy with the ouput quality. My Radeon does a pretty good job but I still can't get a perfect sync match so I can see scanlines on occasion when watching with deinterlacing turned off.

[mikejaner]

I tried the DVDMax and didn't see that much of a quality diff with the Geforce 4. the desktop mode, actually looks horrible IMHO. One thing about tht DVDMAX, I couldn't get the overlay when I was in that mode, so I saw no use in it. Can anybody tell me if that is fixable?
mikejaner