Congratulations and advice needed

[rbmcgee]

Hi all, congratulations on launching SageTV and this forum. I have been following your development over on AVS and have anxiously awaited this day. I live in Indianapolis, so I'm good to go.

Here's my situation:
I have DirecTV service and a 10/100 home network through a router connecting 4 computers. I would like to setup SageTV in the back bedroom that uses the RCA DRD403RA DirecTV receiver. This model does have a serial input. The PC will probably be a PIII 1G machine with lots of hard drive space. I currently do not have any PVR card. I have never owned or used any PC-based PVR or any Tivo-type device, so I'm fairly ignorant regarding functionality. Instead, I use my trusty RCA VCR but want to migrate to PVR. So far, so good.

What I want to do is record my daily sitcoms such as Seinfeld. These shows tend to be view and delete. I want the PVR to be able to find and record these shows automatically wherever and whenever they exist but not record the same episode twice. I assume this is fairly SOP and SageTV can do this as well. Also, my understanding is that SageTV will name these saved programs with the actual show name rather than some coded file name.

I also want to be able to play those saved shows on any computer on the network (including the HTPC). I also want to be able to delete saved programs from any PC on the network. Recording setup can all be done from the main PVR PC.

What software do I need to install on each PC in order to do this? SageTV? Much of the viewing will be done through my HDTV/HTPC setup. Is there anyway to view the saved programs via stretch or 16x9 mode when watching on that TV?

It is also my understanding that SageTV initially does not allow a playlist function (ie, being able to tell SageTV to play a series of shows one after the other without additional involvement) or commercial advance (ie, automatically fast-forward during playback) but that it is possible that these functions may be added at a later time. Any additional info?

I'm not sure I understand the difference between SageTV, SageTV recorder and SageTV service. Which ones would I need?

I am only interested in VCR-quality recordings. Could you recommend the least expensive PVR card and what compression setting I would use and give me an idea of the storage requirement/hr (so that I can plan my hard drive setup).

I apologize for the length and extent of the questions, but I'm hoping that you can be my PVR expert rather than just my SageTV expert.

TIA.

[dkardatzke]

Originally posted by rbmcgee
What I want to do is record my daily sitcoms such as Seinfeld. These shows tend to be view and delete. I want the PVR to be able to find and record these shows automatically wherever and whenever they exist but not record the same episode twice. I assume this is fairly SOP and SageTV can do this as well. Also, my understanding is that SageTV will name these saved programs with the actual show name rather than some coded file name.

Through Favorites Manager you can set up programs to record first runs, re-runs, or both. In either case it will not record episodes you have already seen (at least seen via SageTV or by giving SageTV input that you've already "Watched" a particular episode). These programs will be named with the program name and then unique ID. Within "Sage Recordings" within SageTV you will see these episodes listed for viewing not by file name but by episode name.

Originally posted by rbmcgee
I also want to be able to play those saved shows on any computer on the network (including the HTPC). I also want to be able to delete saved programs from any PC on the network. Recording setup can all be done from the main PVR PC.

What software do I need to install on each PC in order to do this? SageTV? Much of the viewing will be done through my HDTV/HTPC setup. Is there anyway to view the saved programs via stretch or 16x9 mode when watching on that TV?

You would need to install separate versions of SageRecorder on each PC for viewing because SageRecorder allows for viewing programs via stretch or 16x9 mode.

Originally posted by rbmcgee
It is also my understanding that SageTV initially does not allow a playlist function (ie, being able to tell SageTV to play a series of shows one after the other without additional involvement) or commercial advance (ie, automatically fast-forward during playback) but that it is possible that these functions may be added at a later time. Any additional info?

We will look into adding this functionality at a later time.

Originally posted by rbmcgee
I'm not sure I understand the difference between SageTV, SageTV recorder and SageTV service. Which ones would I need?

SageTV is our full featured product with the Integrated Programming Guide, Favorites Recording and Intelligent Recording. The SageTV Service provides you with the programming guide data to provide you with all the functionality just mentioned. SageRecorder is for people who don't want all the functionality of SageTV or are outside of the Service Area.

As discussed above, you would need one copy of SageTV for your main HTPC. You would then need to subscribe to the SageTV service to get your Programming Guide data. You would also need to purchase a copy of SageRecorder for each additional computer you want to play back files from.

Originally posted by rbmcgee
I am only interested in VCR-quality recordings. Could you recommend the least expensive PVR card and what compression setting I would use and give me an idea of the storage requirement/hr (so that I can plan my hard drive setup).

I would recommend the Hauppauge WinTV-PVR-250 card. You can either purchase it at your local Circuit City or CompUSA. You can also purchase it online or we have had some customers tell us they have got it through Ebay for as low at $105.00.

For VCR quality you would use the 1GB/hour setting.

Originally posted by rbmcgee
I apologize for the length and extent of the questions, but I'm hoping that you can be my PVR expert rather than just my SageTV expert.

No problem, we are here to help.

Dan

[rbmcgee]

Thanks for your feedback Dan.

I have a couple follow-up questions.

Let's say I have a series of shows (specified by show name) that I want it to record and a conflict comes up (simultaneous programming). How does SageTV handle (or let me handle) conflict management?

You mentioned that in order to view in 16x9 mode, I would need to install Sagerecorder on that specific PC. What if I don't care about 16x9 mode (ie, some TVs are just regular NTSC). Do I still need Sagerecorder installed on that PC? In other words, is Sagerecorder always needed to watch saved SageTV programs on a remote computer?

To what extent can my entire scenario be controlled via remote rather than mouse/keyboard? My preference is the Pronto/Irman setup. I know you have a girder plugin, but do you have a GML all set to go as well?

Also, I would like to record some VCR tapes to the hard drive with all network access to the saved shows as well. Would SageTV/Sagerecorder/Win-PVR 250 solution be of any value to this?

Thanks again, Dan

[jmeeks]

SageTv has a sophisticated conflict management algorithm.

SageTV will try to resolve the conflict itself first. It will look for the epidsode in conflict playing at a different time and schedule it accordingly. If unable to resolve the conflict on it's own, a conflict message/icon will appear asking for a decision with several options presented. They consist of several options, from a one time only decision of which show to record, to a future decision branch for always choosing one show over another, and if you don't provide a decision, it will then choose the show which was scheduled first or was selected as a favorite first.

Your Networking plans are well supported, exactly as Dan has stated. I have a similar setup using SagetV to record on a main computer (server) and the other computers on the network can access and play those files over the network with SageRecorder. You will have to have some MPEG2 codecs installed on the other computers to support the playback as well.

John Meeks

[dkardatzke]

Originally posted by rbmcgee
What if I don't care about 16x9 mode (ie, some TVs are just regular NTSC). Do I still need Sagerecorder installed on that PC? In other words, is Sagerecorder always needed to watch saved SageTV programs on a remote computer?
No, SageTV records in MPEG-2 format, so you can play the files back with any player that supports MPEG-2.

Originally posted by rbmcgee
To what extent can my entire scenario be controlled via remote rather than mouse/keyboard? My preference is the Pronto/Irman setup. I know you have a girder plugin, but do you have a GML all set to go as well?
I use SageTV with a MX-500 and an IRMan from Evation.com. SageTV has a remote control learning capability built right in to work with the IRMan. I just linked the appropriate commands from my MX-500 directly through SageTV.

Originally posted by rbmcgee
Also, I would like to record some VCR tapes to the hard drive with all network access to the saved shows as well. Would SageTV/Sagerecorder/Win-PVR 250 solution be of any value to this?
Anyone else have an answer to this? I know you wouldn't use SageTV/SageRecorder but what are his options?

Dan

[Narflex]

Actually, SageRecorder is fine for doing VCR tape archiving. There's no batching facilities in it, but you have to manually insert/remove the tapes anyways.

[jmeeks]

To do the VCR tape archiving, would you just connect your VCR to the S-Video/composite video inputs on the MPEG2 encoding card? Then change the input from tuner to composite or S-Video?

That's what I would consider another great benefit of getting a MPEG2 encoding card!

John Meeks

[Narflex]

That'd be right John. :)

[rbmcgee]

Wow, thanks for all the help everybody.

A few more stupid questions if you don't mind:

- Can I pause while recording (either from VCR or from Directv) and thereby editing out commercials? I assume that I can FF and rewind while watching saved programs.

- Since I would be working from a dish (directv), I wouldn't be using the tuner on the card. Let me make sure I can hook up as follows: Directv receiver --> vcr --> tuner card, via either coax, composite or s-video. I assume this would eliminate the need to switch inputs.

- Also, should I be concerned about sync issues when feeding the video to the tuner card (s-video/component) and the audio to the sound card?

Boy, you sure can tell I've never done this before:D

[Narflex]

Can I pause while recording (either from VCR or from Directv) and thereby editing out commercials? I assume that I can FF and rewind while watching saved programs.
You can skip around in time various ways during playback. To remove commercials, you'll need to record the whole show and then edit out the commercials. Hauppauge has an editor that comes with their card you can use.

Since I would be working from a dish (directv), I wouldn't be using the tuner on the card. Let me make sure I can hook up as follows: Directv receiver --> vcr --> tuner card, via either coax, composite or s-video. I assume this would eliminate the need to switch inputs
I'd recommend using composite or s-video(best); they usually give much better quality than the tuner input. Your VCR probably doesn't have s-video; so you can just use composite for the video. Sound also goes into the tuner card (it does audio & video); and you'll connect that up using a L/R RCA stereo audio -> mini-jack (like your sound card's connectors).

If you do have sync problems, no worries; you can correct it in SageRecorder or SageTV. :)

[rbmcgee]

Just so I understand ...
You can skip around in time various ways during playback. To remove commercials, you'll need to record the whole show and then edit out the commercials
... it is not possible to pause during recording, correct?

One more (tehe:D), I'm using NTFS file system. Does SageTV limit the file sizes, ie, break-up a long recording into a series of smaller files or does 1 program = 1 file regardless of length/size?

[jmeeks]

Using NTFS, there is no limit and SageTV keeps the recording all in 1 file unless you stop and restart the recording. Even if you do start and restart, and subsequently create 2 or more files, SageTV keeps track of the recorded portions and will playback everything that is recorded.

You can pause during recording (timeshift) but that does not stop the recording process.

John Meeks

[rbmcgee]

John, thanks for the clarification. Is the inability to pause the recording process inherent in the technology or is it a choice/feature/potential upgrade, etc? The problem for me is that 'pausing live TV' is a feature that I will never use and truthfully, I never understood why Tivo sold that feature so hard. I must have not been the target market.

[jmeeks]

It is the way you have to implement timeshifting capability. That is one of the primary features of PVR capability. To be able to pause a show you are watching while you are distracted and have to do something else like answer the phone.

What you are actually watching in SageTV (TiVo I suppose as well) is actually playback of the recorded stream just after it's been written to the harddrive.

The only exception to this is with SageRecorder and using a Provideo card I believe in live preview mode. There you are actually viewing the live raw feed in the live preview window. But, like I said that's only with SageRecorder and the Provideo cards I believe. Narflex can clarify if I'm incorrect.

John Meeks

[Narflex]

The lack of pause during a recording was just because the pause button was made to 'pause live tv' and not pause the recording. It's something we'll add in a future release.

[SHS]

Jeff there way to pause a recording ocen it started with hardware mpeg encoder, Not even a TvVo box can ture lee do this it my unstanding that TvVo dose time index in data files when it read the MPEG date it also read the data file and it know when to skip that part of the mpeg data so that you never see it.
As much I like this features to be implement it not going work with start new MPEG file.

[edmc]

Sounds like both functions (i.e. Pause Live TV and Pause Active Recording) are desireable to folks. For me, I don't think I'd want to have to "edit in real time" however. I know that I often have to "bounce around" to find the re-start of a program following a set of commercials.

To that end, ReplayTV has a very nice compromise on this. During Playback, Skip Forward is for 30 seconds while Skip Backward is for only 10 seconds. That way, you skip forward over each 30 second spot - slipping a small amount longer each time due to your reaction time in determining that what you skip to is still a commercial - and then, ultimately, you've overshot by a few seconds and can Skip Backward by 10 seconds and only have to watch the last few seconds of the last commercial prior to picking up the program re-start.

As I do this overshoot/backup frequently (I almost never actually watch live TV), I know how inaccurate my "edit in real time" would be so I've never really wanted a "Pause Active Recording" feature).

[Narflex]

You can modify the properties file of Sage(TV/Recorder) to change how much time it goes for skip forward and skip back. They are:

videoframe/ff_time
and
videoframe/rew_time

They're in milliseconds, ff time must be positve and rew tme must be negative. i.e. to have 30 second skip forward and 10 second skip back you'd do:

videoframe/ff_time=30000
videoframe/rew_time=-10000

The defaults it 10 seconds forwards and backwards.

Thanks.

[jmeeks]

SHS, can you clarify what you mean:

[Jeff there way to pause a recording ocen it started with hardware mpeg encoder, Not even a TvVo box can ture lee do this it my unstanding that TvVo dose time index in data files when it read the MPEG date it also read the data file and it know when to skip that part of the mpeg data so that you never see it.
As much I like this features to be implement it not going work with start new MPEG file.]

Ed, what Jeff is saying about setting up the FF and RWD times is exactly what I do. I think I have mine set for +28/-10. Seems to work very well.

John Meeks

[SHS]

As pause the AD it self out of the mpeg that what I tought you ref to jmeeks.
Another words wirte 2min's puase at the ad for 3min unpause at 5min wirte 2 more min's ofthe show then it ends time only 4min's long unlike TvVo or any hardware base encode it rec the all 7min now do unstand?.

[edmc]

Better still, the ReplayTV 4000 & 5000 (maybe it's just the latter) claims to have the capability of editing out the commercials automatically. Of course this is one of the two items they were sued over - the other being the ability to send a recording to another player. That latter capability is, of course, quite easy with SageRecorder/SageTV...

Don't know how they detect the commercials. On commercial radio, there's actually an inaudible signal that can be used to easily automate the process. I'd imagine there's something similar in TV. But something tells me they have a more heuristic approach - something about detecting transitions in the audio track (e.g. commercials have a much higher volume typically).

[jmeeks]

Thanks,

Yes, I understand what you were talking about now.

John Meeks

[Xleon]

If you want to edit out commercials from an MPEG, TMPEG Encoder is the best option. (Used to be known as Tsunami Encoder). It's shareware and has some tools built in that allow you to make a second MPEG file using parts from other files. You simply pick the parts of the show you recorded and not the adverts.

As for pausing live TV, I can see the possibilities, as the number of times I've been watching a show live, only to have the doorbell go or the phone go and you can miss 15 minutes or so. With the pause Live TV function, you can go back at your leisure and carry on as if what you had been watching was simply a video.


Congratulations on the Sage software BTW. I've been hunting around for something that supports 'serious' MPEG encoding cards for ages and this is looking very good for an initial release.