Still not getting smooth playback

[timg11]

We're almost to the end of the beta, but I am still unable to achieve smooth playback (compared to live video or the cable box DVR). I was hoping this would get fixed as we moved through the beta cycle, but I guess it's time to bring it up here to see what can be done.

HD-PVR H.264 video has random freezes lasting for up to a second every 10 to 30 seconds. I believe the problem is in playback because backing up and playing the same segment again will not have the freeze at the same spot. It will occur again at a different point in time.

OTA MPEG2 playback doesn't have long freezes, but more of a micro-stutter, where things that are supposed to be moving smoothly don't.

I'm using Windows 7. Video is all HD - either 720p or 1080i. I've tried both the VMR9 and EVR renderers, but don't see much difference. I changed the MPEG2 Video Decoder Filter to the "Sage Video decoder". It might be tiny bit better, but it is hard to tell. I tried turning on "SageTV MPEG Video Decoder uses DXVA Hardware acceleration". It does reduce CPU use to about 13% for 1080i, but there is no noticeable change in jitter.
The H.264 decoder is set to Microsoft DTV-DVD Video Decoder (there is no other option)

I monitor CPU and disk use with Task Manager and resource monitor. I never see the CPU exceed 50%, and SageTV seems to be using both cores about equally. The disk usage does not give a value in terms of a percentage of maximum, but typically it is well under 10MB/S. The HD LED flashes every second or two, but there is never any sign the disks are overworked. There seems to be no correlation between freezes and disk activity.

How else can I debug this? Is there any thread that explains exactly what to expect from the different renderers and decoders, and how to choose them (other than trial and error)? Are there other decoders that I should try?

Is anything written in the log file that would help understand the source of freezes and jitter?

Also, the quality of cable and OTA signals not always ideal. Does anybody know of downloadable files of H.264 and MPEG2 test material that could be used as a "reference" for configuring and debugging SageTV systems?

[toricred]

I haven't used a PC client in a long time, but if your signature is correct then the 8600GT is probably not enough for H.264 videos and may be the problem. If you have the money, I would recommend an HD300. It totally eliminates the codec and rendering dance.

[alton987]

I am having few similar issues wit a AMD X4620, ATI 3300, and 4Gb Ram. Do you not see the issue if you pause it then watch the video? I only see the issue if I am live. If I just pause for a sec then hit play it is fine.

[Nadim]

I have stuttering with the HD5450 using the SageTV MPEG filter. Tried most codecs, nothings works well for OTA HD.

[rparker]

I found that reducing to 3 gigs of ram fixed those issues I was having.
On my pc clients..

on machine is a dou core 2.2 on 2 gigs of ram with a nvidia 7600 card and runs HD smooth and clean
Now I am using a 32 bit version of win 7 on XP is was very choppy

[timg11]

I found that reducing to 3 gigs of ram fixed those issues I was having.


How did you reduce the memory? I have two modules of 2Gbytes each. I think the actual available memory is something like 3.5Gbytes with 32 bit Windows.
It is important to use multiples of 2 modules, because of the dual-channel memory controller architecture. Just pulling one would reduce memory bandwidth considerably.

Where can I learn more about the underlying issue that causes video performance problems with large amounts of memory?

[timg11]

HD-PVR H.264 video has random freezes lasting for up to a second every 10 to 30 seconds. I believe the problem is in playback because backing up and playing the same segment again will not have the freeze at the same spot. It will occur again at a different point in time.


Follow up note. I have the random freezes and pauses in both HD-PVR H.264 video as well as MPEG2 OTA programming from the HD HomeRun tuner.
Sound is not affected.

[panteragstk]

Follow up note. I have the random freezes and pauses in both HD-PVR H.264 video as well as MPEG2 OTA programming from the HD HomeRun tuner.
Sound is not affected.

I've had lots of issues finding decoders that play nice with the sage splitter. For ota HD the ati decoder works great. For h.264 CoreAVC works the best for me.

[bigjaco]

Switching codecs for me was 100% improvement. While still not perfect, so much better than what I had. I have a similar setup as you thou went x64 win7. I found ArcSoft + 720p from my STP was easier on my 8600GT.

[timg11]

bigjaco, please tell me more about exactly what Arcsoft codec you are using. I have the Arcsoft stuff that came with my HD-PVR. I installed in my prior XP partition, but after never using any of their stuff, I did not install it in Windows 7. (But I still have a copy of the XP partition around if I need to copy some files off of it).

Also, I am under the impression that the Arcsoft codec is for h.264. What do you recommend when the playback problems apply to MPEG2 from OTA broadcasts as well? Now that it's football season, the freezes and gaps are especially annoying.

[bigjaco]

bigjaco, please tell me more about exactly what Arcsoft codec you are using. I have the Arcsoft stuff that came with my HD-PVR. I installed in my prior XP partition, but after never using any of their stuff, I did not install it in Windows 7. (But I still have a copy of the XP partition around if I need to copy some files off of it).

Also, I am under the impression that the Arcsoft codec is for h.264. What do you recommend when the playback problems apply to MPEG2 from OTA broadcasts as well? Now that it's football season, the freezes and gaps are especially annoying.

I installed the same one that came with my HD-PVR. I have a very new HD-PVR and the only driver / software it recognizes is the 1.5.7.0. The ArcSoft codec that came with it seems to play most everything MPEG and OTA just fine accept MKV's with header compression whereas I will switch it back to Microsoft DTV-DVD. The Sage code will work for me also, in most scenarios but will fail on certain AVI encoded files. ArcSoft just works for me. The football lockups alone were enough to send me screaming.

FFDShow would work but would have terrible interlacing. MS would work but would freeze entirely and randomly. Sometimes 10minutes, sometimes 90minutes into a program. After setting my STB (sorry for the STP above) to 720p and switching to ArcSoft I've yet to have a screen lock. I have had an occasional stutter but it appears to resolve itself better and keep going. If I back off the playback of live tv 10seconds I won't get any hiccups.

I'm assuming at this point it's a combination of my video card and codecs. Thou someone brought up that Sage's demux might have some issues as I've had this HTPC for sometime now using BeyondTV and never had any lockups like this previously. ArcSoft was very new to me, but I'm definitely not complaining about the results. WAF is much, much, much higher now and SageTV has now officially replaced BTV and Media Portal for me. Which makes me happy.

If you need something specific about the ArcSoft codec you'll have to help me by telling me how to determine the version as I just register the arcsoft.ax on the DVD.

[timg11]

Which file is the Arcsoft MPEG2 codec? I tried to register ArcMpegCodec.ax, but it gives an error when I use the command "regsvr32 ArcMpegCodec.ax".

The codecs I have available are from the Arcsoft TMT program that came with the HD-PVR. Here is the list of .AX codecs that are present:

Directory of C:\Program Files\ArcSoft\TotalMedia Extreme\Codec

08/19/2008 08:51 AM 98,304 AC3EncoderFilter.ax
10/21/2008 01:33 PM 106,496 ArcCaptureEncoder.ax
08/18/2008 01:54 PM 425,984 ArcDemux.ax
09/11/2007 02:23 PM 69,632 ArcGetDataSample.ax
04/13/2007 09:48 AM 72,448 ArcMCEMux.ax
08/03/2007 09:56 AM 262,144 ArcMP3enc.ax
04/13/2007 09:48 AM 137,984 ArcMpegCodec.ax
04/13/2007 09:49 AM 76,544 ArcMplexFilter.ax
05/29/2007 10:56 AM 56,064 ArcPutDataSample.ax
02/04/2006 03:45 PM 53,248 ArcRead.ax
04/13/2007 09:49 AM 158,464 ArcResizer.ax
06/20/2007 10:42 AM 110,592 ArcSnap.ax
12/20/2007 10:48 AM 696,320 ArcText.ax
09/19/2007 01:08 PM 372,736 ArcVEncoder.ax
04/13/2007 09:49 AM 92,928 ArcVideoEffect.ax
05/29/2007 10:56 AM 129,792 ArcWmvSpl.ax
09/09/2008 04:17 PM 438,344 ASAudio.ax
10/08/2008 10:15 AM 1,171,456 ASVid.ax
04/13/2007 09:49 AM 105,216 CheckerFilter.ax
04/13/2007 09:49 AM 105,216 deinterlace.ax
04/13/2007 10:02 AM 117,504 dump.ax
04/13/2007 09:49 AM 101,120 DVTransition.ax
04/20/2007 02:24 AM 114,688 EITFilter.ax
04/13/2007 09:50 AM 113,408 FileDump.ax
04/19/2007 09:25 AM 39,680 ISDBDecoder2.ax
10/09/2006 02:06 PM 221,184 iTVSource.ax
04/13/2007 09:50 AM 68,352 lpcmdec.ax
04/13/2007 09:50 AM 68,352 LPCMParser.ax
04/13/2007 09:50 AM 133,888 MediaWrite.ax
07/27/2007 04:15 PM 139,387 MP4Muxer.ax
07/11/2008 02:13 PM 163,840 mp4splitter.ax
04/13/2007 09:50 AM 60,160 Mpeg2AudioEncoder.ax
04/26/2007 02:54 PM 548,864 Mpeg2VideoEncoder.ax
04/15/2004 03:52 PM 98,423 MplexFilter.ax
04/25/2007 01:21 PM 102,400 PinCloneFilter.ax
02/13/2008 02:05 PM 172,032 PsiParser.ax
04/13/2007 09:46 AM 64,256 RealAudioDecoder.ax
04/13/2007 09:46 AM 154,368 RealMediaSplitter.ax
04/13/2007 09:46 AM 101,120 RealVideoDecoder.ax
04/13/2007 09:51 AM 88,832 SrcBuffer.ax
05/21/2007 11:35 AM 249,856 TDMBSource.ax
06/15/2007 05:36 PM 139,264 TimeShift2.ax
04/19/2007 09:39 AM 150,272 TSdump.ax
04/19/2007 09:39 AM 92,928 TSRead.ax
12/21/2006 04:17 PM 110,689 VBICodecFilter.ax
07/10/2007 10:39 AM 57,344 VirtualWriter.ax

[SteveD]

I am running nvidia 8400gs, 2 gig of ram, Intel E6300 Windows 7, sagetv 7. I have smooth playback on clients. HD PVR. I don't believe you have a hardware issue. I would play with the codecs, also are you running any realtime virus scanning. Try the Coreavc codec.

[timg11]

The system works very well playing video, except in SageTV. I can play HD videos in Windows Media Player or VLC without any flaws. The DPC latency checker shows an absolute maximum latency of 1200uS. Windows Resource Monitor shows the disk latency of 5mS even when recording 3 shows at the same time. The system can record 3 shows at 1080i resolution with 10% CPU load, and the disks are only showing activity about once per second. Playback is equally erratic whether I play one show with nothing recording, or play the show with 3 shows recording.

I'm puzzled why I should have to "play with codecs" when SageTV ships with supposedly functional codecs, and Windows 7 comes with codecs that seem to work very well in Windows Media Player? I have seen references to complex procedures to try and get Arcsoft codecs to work in SageTV. Now you are suggesting I purchase the Coreavc codec. (checking their website, there seems to be no trial version, and it is not clear if it decodes MPEG2 as well as H.264). I will buy it if that's what it takes, but why are so many other people getting acceptable results from the supplied codecs? Are standard video chipsets like NVIDIA and ATI so flaky, that everyone has to go through extensive technical debugging and or time consuming trial and error testing of multitudes of combinations of settings? I don't mean to unload on you, but I've been trying to solve this for a very long time.

[SteveD]

Don't know how to help you other than to say that Sagetv works, and works well. Takes a while to solve problems sometimes.

[jptheripper]

during setup, did you run through the video card tests?

Also, if you are displeased with sage's codecs, it is very easy to switch to Microsoft's. If at that time, playback is still unsatisfactory, my limited opinion would be that the problem is not related to sage.

While you seem adverse to trying many combinations, you seem to have already done a multitude of testing.

I for one would never use the coreavc codec. There are plenty of free alternatives. And if the video plays fine in other players, the codec is already sufficient. Just switch your video renderer to microsoft and it will use the same one media player uses.

[panteragstk]

I'm puzzled why I should have to "play with codecs" when SageTV ships with supposedly functional codecs, and Windows 7 comes with codecs that seem to work very well in Windows Media Player? I have seen references to complex procedures to try and get Arcsoft codecs to work in SageTV. Now you are suggesting I purchase the Coreavc codec. (checking their website, there seems to be no trial version, and it is not clear if it decodes MPEG2 as well as H.264). I will buy it if that's what it takes, but why are so many other people getting acceptable results from the supplied codecs? Are standard video chipsets like NVIDIA and ATI so flaky, that everyone has to go through extensive technical debugging and or time consuming trial and error testing of multitudes of combinations of settings? I don't mean to unload on you, but I've been trying to solve this for a very long time.

You are not the only one. I've been dealing with decoder issues for a while. Now you know why people use extenders instead of clients. Just because it will play in mpc, wmp, vlc or any other player doesn't mean that it will work in sagetv. Sage wants to use its own splitter and sometimes it doesn't like certain decoders with certain file types. You also need to remember that the plugins installed play a big part in figuring out all of these playback issues. I've found that bear bones sagetv with no plugins installed plays back almost all files perfectly. Try that and see if it helps narrow down what is causing your issues.

[SteveD]

See attached, my current video configurations for my 3 pc clients. I have excellent playback, no stutter. I am not saying that this configuration will work for you. This is windows 7, but one of these clients was a year old running xp,with same codecs until I upgraded it to windows 7 in October. One client running windows 7 since december. Newest PC client built in October with window 7. I am running 4gig of ram on one pc client. See signature for client specs.

I used the coreavc codec because it was cheaped and designed for use with nvidia graphics cards. It a 9.95 codec. I have Nvidia Purevideo gold codec 29.95, Elecard codec, and Powerdvd 9. I have bought all of these over the years. Powerdvd 9 is for blueray playback. Tried free ones to.

This is a hobby for me and I like to tinker with it. Are you sure the sagetv codec is the best one for the job. It may be the 4 cylinder just to get you going when you need a v8. Just my opinion.

I do not use the server for playback.

From experience-poor quality OTA air signal used to cause my server to reboot when it doubled as a client, the main reason I separated it from playback duty. Corrupt signal will cause all kinds of problems. Resolved problem by amplifying signal to get it above 90% on my 1250 and 2250s.(1). Removed any channels that could not maintain a signal with amplification at 90%. (2) Server no longer used for playback, just capture. I use directv through svideo and component, never seen an issue with playback. I have seen post that some problems are caused by the cable provider being used and there stb.

[SteveD]

I have stuttering with the HD5450 using the SageTV MPEG filter. Tried most codecs, nothings works well for OTA HD.

I moved away from ATI cards to Nvidia because of OTA playback issues. I had a 4350 and it could playback a blueray dvd but not OTA. Used an old nvidia 7300 gs and was able to play OTA just fine. See signature for video current specs.

[panteragstk]

See attached, my current video configurations for my 3 pc clients. I have excellent playback, no stutter. I am not saying that this configuration will work for you. This is windows 7, but one of these clients was a year old running xp,with same codecs until I upgraded it to windows 7 in October. One client running windows 7 since december. Newest PC client built in October with window 7. I am running 4gig of ram on one pc client. See signature for client specs.

I used the coreavc codec because it was cheaped and designed for use with nvidia graphics cards. It a 9.95 codec. I have Nvidia Purevideo gold codec 29.95, Elecard codec, and Powerdvd 9. I have bought all of these over the years. Powerdvd 9 is for blueray playback. Tried free ones to.

This is a hobby for me and I like to tinker with it. Are you sure the sagetv codec is the best one for the job. It may be the 4 cylinder just to get you going when you need a v8. Just my opinion.

I do not use the server for playback.

From experience-poor quality OTA air signal used to cause my server to reboot when it doubled as a client, the main reason I separated it from playback duty. Corrupt signal will cause all kinds of problems. Resolved problem by amplifying signal to get it above 90% on my 1250 and 2250s.(1). Removed any channels that could not maintain a signal with amplification at 90%. (2) Server no longer used for playback, just capture. I use directv through svideo and component, never seen an issue with playback. I have seen post that some problems are caused by the cable provider being used and there stb.

What plugins are you using?

[SteveD]

What plugins are you using?

Plugins: Slimplayer, Playon, Commercial Playback, MyTV for V7(Showanalyzer suite runs on server). Webserver on server.

I do not use Playon anymore.

List a plugin you need me to try and I will install on one of my clients to break it. If it doesn't break the client we will have learned something. If it does we can troubleshoot it see if the problem can be solved.

[panteragstk]

Plugins: Slimplayer, Playon, Commercial Playback, MyTV for V7(Showanalyzer suite runs on server). Webserver on server.

I do not use Playon anymore.

List a plugin you need me to try and I will install on one of my clients to break it. If it doesn't break the client we will have learned something. If it does we can troubleshoot it see if the problem can be solved.

Thanks. The ones that cause problems for me (sometimes) are the phoenix core services and ortus api. I've been working with sage support and the ortus guys and have gotten a lot further, but haven't had time lately to debug. I appreciate the help. I'd like to know if my system config is the issue, or the plugin combination is the issue.

[SteveD]

Thanks. The ones that cause problems for me (sometimes) are the phoenix core services and ortus api. I've been working with sage support and the ortus guys and have gotten a lot further, but haven't had time lately to debug. I appreciate the help. I'd like to know if my system config is the issue, or the plugin combination is the issue.

OK, I installed both of your plugins, now, Please supply me with the configuration settings you require, to imitate your setup.

[panteragstk]

OK, I installed both of your plugins, now, Please supply me with the configuration settings you require, to imitate your setup.

I use the ortus api with the ortus trailers plugin. The phoenix core services is used with the fanart for malore menus plugin. Basically when I play any HD mpeg2 files, h.264, or vc-1 they play just fine when they play, but sage will randomly crash, or the file gets stuck in pause at the beginning and won't play.

I also use smm, but that hasn't caused any playback issues. If I have bare sagetv with smm and no fanart plugins (phoenix, ortus) installed I don't have these issues. Thanks for the help.

[SteveD]

I use the ortus api with the ortus trailers plugin. The phoenix core services is used with the fanart for malore menus plugin. Basically when I play any HD mpeg2 files, h.264, or vc-1 they play just fine when they play, but sage will randomly crash, or the file gets stuck in pause at the beginning and won't play.

I also use smm, but that hasn't caused any playback issues. If I have bare sagetv with smm and no fanart plugins (phoenix, ortus) installed I don't have these issues. Thanks for the help.

I loaded the plugin you listed on one of my clients and so far i haven't experienced any issues. I downloaded a couple of trailers and played them, then went back to a regular program without any problems. I will continue using to see if I experience any problems.

What is smm?

[panteragstk]

I loaded the plugin you listed on one of my clients and so far i haven't experienced any issues. I downloaded a couple of trailers and played them, then went back to a regular program without any problems. I will continue using to see if I experience any problems.

What is smm?

Sage my movies. Hmm. no issues. Seems like it may be something related to just my system. Great.