Is native bluray support coming soon?

[Livin]

It seems that STV is almost a complete media center - really only missing 2 things that I can see (though I don't have extensive use yet and may come up with more gaps)

1) multi-zone audio (like J River Media Center)

2) Blueray playback without the need for 3rd party apps.

More important for me is #2 since I want to ditch my sony player.

is it come soon... e.g. in the next few months?

[Polypro]

If you mean BR playback without AnyDVD-HD...not gonna happen (IMO). That would require DRM, Certification, etc... BR playback is getting there. If you bitstream, the only improvement that needs to be made is a way for Sage to immediately recognize any new BD that get's placed in the tray...or at least offer a "Scan BD Drive" option. Other than that, I get DXVA playback just fine. If you don't bitstream, there is still some work needed to be done to reliably pull the *English* AC3 or DTS core from each disk...I just ordered a GT430 so that I can bitstream.

P

[PLUCKYHD]

v7 has always supported native playback...no it is up to you to select the correct filters and decoders.

[Rico66]

v7 has always supported native playback...no it is up to you to select the correct filters and decoders.

Not sure what you call native, but to me native means that I get the same experience compared to a stand-alone player or products like TMT, PowerDVD. That is clearly not the case with Sage. Sage only supports BDMV playback in combination with another software (like AnyDVD) that handles the decryption.
I think it is very unlikely that Sage is ever going to support full BD playback, it likely would also double the price (think Sage + AnyDVD pricewise)

[sdsean]

well i gotta say I still see this feature in sage as pretty flaky.

I don't care so much about needing any dvd (although it would be great if sage offered a bundle with it ).. .

but just the other day i rented Iron Man 2. Stuck in the drive, tried to playback, and Sage actually crashed. So then I ripped to to the hard drive, tried to play back the rip. . . and crash. . .

It seems like this happens a lot for me. . . and I know that I have all the proper software / hardware etc. . .

so while I don't mind requiring extra software, I would like it to just "work" every time. . .which so far has not happened without me ripping and transcoding to some other format.

[civerson4]

well i gotta say I still see this feature in sage as pretty flaky.

I don't care so much about needing any dvd (although it would be great if sage offered a bundle with it ).. .

but just the other day i rented Iron Man 2. Stuck in the drive, tried to playback, and Sage actually crashed. So then I ripped to to the hard drive, tried to play back the rip. . . and crash. . .

It seems like this happens a lot for me. . . and I know that I have all the proper software / hardware etc. . .

so while I don't mind requiring extra software, I would like it to just "work" every time. . .which so far has not happened without me ripping and transcoding to some other format.


I had major problems ripping the Iron Man 2 Bluray. Do a google search--but DVDfab has a recent update that fixes it.

[PLUCKYHD]

They never said they allowed unencrypted playback they said "native format support" meaning it supports the native folder format. If you are having issues playing back get the correct software or better yet get an extender and have 0 issues. If you want a standalone player behavior then get a standalone player.

[sdsean]

Well actually the extender crashed for me as well fyi. . . but I have all the correct software. I'm just saying that there are lots fo discs that always seem to cause problems. That being said, more often then not, I get it to work, one way or the other, but there always seems to be some issue. . .

Although i do agree with others that there should be a way in the UI to only list Optical drives and rescan them rather than treating them as simple import folders and waiting for a full import scan to finish. . .that would help alot. . .

[PLUCKYHD]

Well actually the extender crashed for me as well fyi. . . but I have all the correct software. I'm just saying that there are lots fo discs that always seem to cause problems. That being said, more often then not, I get it to work, one way or the other, but there always seems to be some issue. . .

Although i do agree with others that there should be a way in the UI to only list Optical drives and rescan them rather than treating them as simple import folders and waiting for a full import scan to finish. . .that would help alot. . .

Wierd I haven't had any bluray problems in a Long time. That being said even standalone players require constant firmware updates.

I agree on th drive issue and have actually fixed that in smm although not released yet.

[Peter_h]

well i gotta say I still see this feature in sage as pretty flaky.

I don't care so much about needing any dvd (although it would be great if sage offered a bundle with it ).. .

but just the other day i rented Iron Man 2. Stuck in the drive, tried to playback, and Sage actually crashed. So then I ripped to to the hard drive, tried to play back the rip. . . and crash. . .

It seems like this happens a lot for me. . . and I know that I have all the proper software / hardware etc. . .

so while I don't mind requiring extra software, I would like it to just "work" every time. . .which so far has not happened without me ripping and transcoding to some other format.

I have iron man 2 and I have no problems with it. I ripped it via AnydvdHD, autorip through mymovies (thanks plucky), and was able to play with no issue on HD300.

[stanger89]

Everyone frustrated reading this should remember to thank the BDA, AACS, and BD+ for the wonderful Blu-ray Disc product they've created for us. All of the issues here are IMO 100% the fault of the BDA and content producers and their insistance on crippling DRM on BD.

Their choices have made it impossible for small outfits like Sage to add proper support for Blu-ray, thus forcing them to rely on a hodgepodge of random Directshow filters for "support" rather than just licensing a Blu-ray playback package (like could be done for DVD).

[sdsean]

Yeah I ripped it via anydvd as well, i don't think the rip was the problem. . .

And yeah I know its not Sage's fault by any means. . .

[Rico66]

The original question here was whether blu ray playback would ever be possible without additional/3rd party support. Keep in mind that ripping software is also needed. So the answer is a no.

Regarding the dshow filters, I don't see what this has to do with AACS, BD+ etc. Blu rays are more complex than DVDs, you have 3 different video formats (h264, vc-1, mpeg2) combined with a number of audio formats (like DTS-MA, TrueHD, DTS, AC3, DD+), whereas DVDs are mpeg2 video plus mainly DTS or AC3 audio.
Some BD combinations play just fine and some don't depending on the selected decoder/splitter combination. But I still think it's just a matter of time until support for most/all of the possible combinations will be there.

[bits]

Well actually the extender crashed for me as well fyi. . . but I have all the correct software. I'm just saying that there are lots fo discs that always seem to cause problems. That being said, more often then not, I get it to work, one way or the other, but there always seems to be some issue. . .

Although i do agree with others that there should be a way in the UI to only list Optical drives and rescan them rather than treating them as simple import folders and waiting for a full import scan to finish. . .that would help alot. . .

I have ripped a significant number of BDs using DVDFab, main movie only, and have not had a single playback issue with any of them on either my HD200 or my HD300. No conversion with the exception of a few BDs where I used Clown_BD to convert the audio for use with the HD200. I think I have roughly 45-50 BDs and as I said I have not had a single play back issue. I use extender mode exlusively.

I am not saying that DVDFab is any better than AnyDVD but I do think that it is odd that some folks have issues and others do not. My experience so far is that the HD200 and HD300 handle BD rips quite nicely.

[nick_l]

Everyone frustrated reading this should remember to thank the BDA, AACS, and BD+ for the wonderful Blu-ray Disc product they've created for us. All of the issues here are IMO 100% the fault of the BDA and content producers and their insistance on crippling DRM on BD.

Their choices have made it impossible for small outfits like Sage to add proper support for Blu-ray, thus forcing them to rely on a hodgepodge of random Directshow filters for "support" rather than just licensing a Blu-ray playback package (like could be done for DVD).

^^^^^^

THIS is why I will never own a BD product (and although not exactly the same situation, will never use CC). If the "Blu" format ever becomes the standard for movie/data delivery, then I guess I will be stuck in the stone age.

I know and accept that most people don't know or care about the decisions behind these things, but as with most of the things Sony creates to attempt to apply an artificial stranglehold on content delivery manipulation, I think their performance here borders on criminal (probably not strictly speaking, but I have no doubt that there were many closed door meetings were shady deals were taking place).

At any rate, I personally will make a personal sacrifice rather than give the impression that BD is an acceptable method of content delivery.

[sdsean]

Well I was very surprised to see the HD200 do a hard crash. . . mostly I use the PC Server Client of course where windows issues get in the way. . .

As far as the format itself. . .I agree to an extent. . .its ridculous the number of updates and what not that you have to go through. . I only suffer through for action movies mostly, where I deem having the hi-res content as something useful. I mean, why does The Hangover need to be in full 1080p. . . I could care less. . .

[stanger89]

Blu rays are more complex than DVDs, you have 3 different video formats (h264, vc-1, mpeg2) combined with a number of audio formats (like DTS-MA, TrueHD, DTS, AC3, DD+), whereas DVDs are mpeg2 video plus mainly DTS or AC3 audio.

All true but, that's not really the problem.

"Regarding the dshow filters, I don't see what this has to do with AACS, BD+ etc. "

The problem is, for DVD, the big 1st parties (nVidia, Cyberlink, Intervideo, Sonic, etc) with the budgets to do the licensing and development could build Dshow filter packages that would play DVD, and they could then license those packages to 3rd parties (TheaterTek, SageTV) or directly to end users (DVD Decoder packs).

With Blu-ray, they have made that sub-licensing impossible. So Cyberlink, Arcsoft, Roxio, Corel, etc can't make "Blu-ray Decoder packs", SageTV can't build their app around complete decoder solutions that handle everything automatically.

Some BD combinations play just fine and some don't depending on the selected decoder/splitter combination. But I still think it's just a matter of time until support for most/all of the possible combinations will be there.

Which is the problem, since sub licensing is not allowed, if you've not got the very larger development budget/resources to build your own Blu-ray solution ground up, you're stuck bodging together a hodgepodge of DShow filters, or forcing that task on your end users.

We shouldn't have to do that, we should be able to go out and buy a Cyberlinke Blu-ray Decoder Pack, install it on our systems and have working BD playback in any Dshow app that supports those filters. But as I said, the licensing for the content protection (AACS, BD+ largely) has made that impossible. Of course it's probably best coming direct from a software developer, here's what Andrew, creator of TheaterTek says about the issue:


With DVD, the market to allow sub-licensing was possible. We did this with Ravisent which became Sonic, then with nVidia when they created a DVD component set. These large organizations plunked down the $1m entry fee for CSS and audio licensing.

With the copy protection so easily removed with DVD, the powers at be created an entirely different licensing and restriction policy for the new formats. This has effectively made sub-licensing significantly more difficult, requiring the very substantial financial and development resources to play in this new market. The componentization of the codecs has been removed (DirectShow for example is 'unsafe' for BluRay playback) and a secure data path throughout the rendering pipeline is required. This effectively means that assembling codecs together as we did in DirectShow using tools such as GraphEdit is not possible for BluRay.

Maybe this situation will change over time, but for now, the entry fee is just too high, even with the very generous offers of our OEM's.

As for future versions of TT, there will continue to be updates. There is a 2.7 release that has been held up to make a few changes, but it will be out in the near future. The releases have not been as frequent as they have in the past for several reasons, most notably because the product is very stable. The 'what do you want thread' has essentially also been just a discussion point for BluRay support implying that beyond this capability, the general concensus is that the current release through its integration with other products such as MyMovies, CQC or Cinemar meets the needs of current and ongoing customers. That is not to say that all ideas come from this forum, but ultimately we respond to customer needs and/or demand when we can.

I hope this clears up any ambiguity on this topic, and until a realistic opportunity arises to support BluRay, TT will remain a DVD and other media-focused player. Again, I welcome any and all suggestions for improvements or features for the product. It has been built from the ground up over several years by responding to the needs and desires of customers such as yourselves.

Andrew
http://www.theatertek.com/forums/showthread.php?t=9128&page=6


I know and accept that most people don't know or care about the decisions behind these things, but as with most of the things Sony creates to attempt to apply an artificial stranglehold on content delivery manipulation, I think their performance here borders on criminal (probably not strictly speaking, but I have no doubt that there were many closed door meetings were shady deals were taking place).

Let's not kid ourselves though, it's not a Sony issues, it's an industry issue. HD DVD would have been just as bad. Frankly I think I blame Fox more than about anyone else. They seem to be the ones leading the charge for very strict DRM.

At any rate, I personally will make a personal sacrifice rather than give the impression that BD is an acceptable method of content delivery.

It's an interesting quandry, on the one hand, I agree. But on the other, BD is the highest quality format available, and I don't want to send the message that we (collectively) don't care about quality. Further, even with it's restrictions (and their workarounds) it's still better than streaming or digital downloads, which are even more compatible than BD.

I myself compromised by not buying until ripping was possible. The problem with boycotting BD is there's almost no chance the industry will get the right message. They'll see it as an indictment of the price vs quality vs convenience, and we'd likely end up with more restricted digital downloads of lower quality and lower compatibility, not high quality, less restrictive, more compatible format.

Like it or not, BD is really the best method of content delivery going now. At least if quality is anywhere on your list of criteria.

[korben_dallas]

Thanx for the sub-licensing information Stanger. I had no idea. I wish SageTV had shared this. I wouldn't have ranted in a few threads about the poor BD playback situation if I had known.