USer Interface Report and Suggestions

[roco]

Just ran across this and thought you all might enjoy a look at it. Its a free 40 page report on the current state of user interfaces for PVR's. Hope it spurs many ideas!

Cheers,
roco

http://pvr.teehanlax.com/teehan_lax-PVRv1-2.pdf

[mlbdude]

That is a great resource. Thanks!

[kevpriest]

Edited: I made a throwaway joke here, and then this thread became a really useful and serious discussion of how to make a better PVR interface. Since then I've probably reread this thread 4 or 5 times and I got really annoyed looking at my joke over and over at the top of the thread, so I killed it.

Good luck with implementing this interface. I think it's a fantastic opportunity.

[mikejaner]

Very nice presentation. I especially like their concept for the LiveTV and Playback screens. All of that extra info in the timebar seems very useful. MlbDude, any chance you could impliment something like that in the timebar?

[mbrown3]

Yeah, good article. The only thing is, most things I read about remotes are based on people using their thumbs to operate them. I never use my thumb for any remote, I use my index finger, holding it with my hand over top. I find it MUCH easier to use this way. Am I the only one that uses my index finger for the remote instead of my thumb?
:confused:

[edbmdave]

Article was great. And I agree with enough of it to say I would love to see SageTV do this. My issues with it are small.

Honestly I even liked the color scheme they came up with. Very readable, and soft on the eyes.

I am a thumber on a remote....

[ErsatzTom]

Thumb. :)

Haven't read it yet... just assisting in threadjacking. :D

t

[mlbdude]

So who is going to get me the stock PNG images necessary to build this? :)

[mikejaner]

Umm... I could sketch them out in Microsoft Paint, and give you .BMP files, lol.

[mikejaner]

I did this with a quick 20 minute session in Gimp for Windows. If I knew what I was doing, I could have probably done it in about 3-5 minutes, hehe.

[edbmdave]

One down, Many Left.

I am going to go out and buy a book on PaintShop and PhotoShop. See if I can't contibute to this. Will also start looking for fonts.

Sage has many of the screens (ish) that they are asking for in their ideal state, they just need some tweaking. I am going to show this to my wife tonight, but I think she is going to love the look and feel. It is very natural.

Having been in the Software Business for a long time, it always amazes me that more companies don't do research like this, to see what the Usabablity and Acceptance factor or user interfaces are. Bottom line is if the WAF isn't there, no amount of technical gee wiz is going to make the product sell and see adoption.

PS. For those of you that haven't take a look at Meedio. They did a nice job on the interface. I really liked the Beach Theme (seperate download). Don't know if others will. But it gives you an idea about the power of the user interface.

[edbmdave]

The actual font is called Interstate. It is a heavily royaltied item. A free knock-off version is called Blue Highway, it can be obtained from here:

http://www.larabiefonts.com/fonts/b2.html

Note if you want more of the Blue Highway family, you can buy the whole family for $22 from the author.

[mikejaner]

OK, we get it edbmdave!!! hehe


Anyways, I extracted what I think would make good timebar elements. Hope you like.

[heffe2001]

I just wish someone would come up with a theme that looks exactly like the Dishnet PVR, then my WAF would be 110% (I used to have those in the house, but got rid of them when we moved as we could get cable for a bit less with our internet). If the remote wasn't UHF, I'd probably use it with the Sage system here now :).

[mikejaner]

As I posted above, I did the images in Gimp, which is close to what photoshop is, except open source and free!!. Anyways, I did the images in .png, and set the transparency for the unused areas of the images.

[gteehan]

Rather than buying fonts or emulating our screens you could have just asked for some help directly. Our contact info is both on our site and in the PDF. We're easy to get a hold of. Microsoft, who is the biggest down-loader of the file has also yet to contact us, we can only assume and be flattered by the assumption that some of our ideas will be part of the next Media Center release.

My partner and I have some rather big ideas outside of the GUI that can make this device work for you in ways not yet thought of (obviously these ideas are not yet part of the current PDF).

That said we are developing these ideas and are documenting ( http://pvr.teehanlax.com ) our questions, successes and failures during the process of bringing this product to market. We welcome comments and suggestions to further it's development.

Geoff Teehan

[edbmdave]

Originally posted by gteehan
Rather than buying fonts or emulating our screens you could have just asked for some help directly. Our contact info is both on our site and in the PDF. We're easy to get a hold of. Microsoft, who is the biggest down-loader of the file has also yet to contact us, we can only assume and be flattered by the assumption that some of our ideas will be part of the next Media Center release.

My partner and I have some rather big ideas outside of the GUI that can make this device work for you in ways not yet thought of (obviously these ideas are not yet part of the current PDF).

That said we are developing these ideas and are documenting ( http://pvr.teehanlax.com ) our questions, successes and failures during the process of bringing this product to market. We welcome comments and suggestions to further it's development.

Geoff Teehan



OK. I am not shy, Would you be willing to help us implement a UI (STV in SageSpeak) like you outlined for SageTV? As you can see from the thread this all kind of happened in the space of hours...
:)

Really like the work you did for/in the paper.... Very well done.

;)

MLBDude is the holder of the Studio product that can actually implement and create the actual STV? What do you say? MlbDude/GTeehan?

[mikejaner]

I agree, You guys have designed an excellent potential interface for a PVR. I hope that you are flattered that a few of us are trying to see what it would look like in a working PVR interface.
I apologize if you are insulted by me trying to grab a few images so a demo of what you had in mind could be shown. I would like your guys blessing, but wasn't expecting to ask until we could get it working. Again thanks for the input and a great paper on the subject.

[gteehan]

We'd be happy to help.

MLBdude, if you are interested in implementing any of our ideas we'd be willing to supply any assets necessary. It would also be great to understand what the limitations of the software is. We felt one of the live TV timebar's strengths was it's ability to understand what has been cached. To give this cached information context, it has the ability to display the show names for the given channel in that 90-120 minute timeslot. It's things like this that we'd love to see implemented but are pretty sure a skinning tool can't provide. Thoughts?

[mbrown3]

I just think it would excellent to get this implemented...hopefully you all can work out the details. And maybe having that remote available too?!? ;)

[mlbdude]

Originally posted by gteehan
We'd be happy to help.

MLBdude, if you are interested in implementing any of our ideas we'd be willing to supply any assets necessary. It would also be great to understand what the limitations of the software is. We felt one of the live TV timebar's strengths was it's ability to understand what has been cached. To give this cached information context, it has the ability to display the show names for the given channel in that 90-120 minute timeslot. It's things like this that we'd love to see implemented but are pretty sure a skinning tool can't provide. Thoughts?

I am pretty sure I can replicate just about everything in that document. I am defiantly interested in doing a skin similar to what I see. I actually started last night doing one that is similar but if I had permission and image resources I think I can replicate it nearly exact. Studio is more than a skinning tool :).

[mikejaner]

Man I wish I had studio so I could help out with this stuff. Anyways let me know MlbDude, if you need a Guinnea Pig for this theme.

[heffe2001]

I betcha there wouldn't be any problem coming up with some testers for this particular theme :). I for one try 'em all, sorta like Pokemon...

[mlbdude]

Here are some screens I have done so far. I don't have any images or the right fonts so all is done with primitive shapes.

Not so sure I like the gold background with black selected text. Though it could be because of the first items I mention.

First question. Recommendations. It says 40 new. Those are the 40 IR recordings I have that have NOT been watched. Is that what it should be? It could also list the last x IR recordings it has recorded since I last clicked on Recommendations. Anyone?

Any suggestions for the actual Recommendations list? It is sorted by most recently recorded. I can't use an image of the show itself so I threw in the channel logo. Should I use no images? Suggestions?

For a recording details menu, I list Watch (the obvious one), then Don't Like (I want that to be a button that both sets it as don't like and deletes it - any other title that is better?), and Other. Other will have another pop-up that would contain more advanced less commonly used items we are used to seeing in Sage. Suggestions?

That is all for now. I may not post for a bunch of days as I am moving so keep the ideas coming. Thanks to gteehan for allowing us to proceed with this and to everyone else chipping in.

[stanger89]

Who needs the exact images, it's the concepts that count:)

But man you really are a Studio monster, looks very cool so far.

[gplasky]

Excellent job. You're definitely on the right track.

I think Recommendations should definitely list what IR is recording for you. Channel logo is a good idea. Sorted by most recently recorded makes sense.

Recording details. Just a thought-what if you want to mark it don't like because you don't want it recording anymore but you still want to watch this one later? Would it be better if there was a "Trash" button that actually marks it as don't like and deletes it? So you have "Watch" Don't Like" "Trash" and "Other".

I think it is coming along real good and to tell you the truth the primitives are looking actually pretty good. I think if you get a better font (Interstate or whatever)the black text on gold will actually look good.

OK-back to work. I think you'll outdo yourself on this one.

Gerry

[mikejaner]

Very nice indeed. I think what you have is a very nice change. Do you have any screenies of Live Tv or Playback?

[Opus4]

OK... I'll be the odd one of the bunch. :D My concern when I see such a display is something like: "OK, hmmm... I've got 40 new shows to look through, but I can only see 4 at a time. Looks like I'm going to be wasting a lot of time scrolling..." I'm the type whose first thought, when I look at most of these PVR screens, is that so _little_ info is shown at one time -- it is like trying to read a very long novel, but I can only see 4 words per page, and the pages take 5 seconds to turn.

With that in mind, what about a different style of display for PVR listings? Perhaps leave 1 box at the top right to show 1 show's info, then list 10 - 20 show titles along the right side, below that 1 info box. My problem isn't with how the graphics are laid out, just with the amount of information provided.

Does anyone else look for more info per page? Surely, I can't be the only one to find malore's compact listings more useful w/their corresponding ability to list more per page. :)

- Andy

[mlbdude]

I think that is a problem Sage is encountering for non technical users. Too much info is confusing people. With this I want to show as little info as possible and as few possible actions on one screen but allow the user to get to more info if they want.

This theme is NOT for the experienced user, this is for that users wife and her mom :).

[mlbdude]

Here is the work in progress EPG real quick before I go to bed.

[Opus4]

Originally posted by mlbdude
I think that is a problem Sage is encountering for non technical users. Too much info is confusing people. With this I want to show as little info as possible and as few possible actions on one screen but allow the user to get to more info if they want.I think it is more along the lines that I am too impatient to scroll through all those shows. ;) More seriously...

I look at it a bit differently: To me, the confusing part is when there are too many options on one screen. I see the case of 15 buttons (exaggerating!) to choose from on a menu, where each button represents a different option, to be different from 4-5 buttons + 10 shows to choose from, where those 10 shows have 10 buttons (1 each), but each of those buttons means the same thing: "select this show & do <something>".

So, in this view, you can reduce the # of choices per screen, but still show more information.

Thus: "too many option choices = confusion"

but: "more information = better ability to make a selection"

Edit: this idea fits the design of the EPG, where it shows the titles + the description above, rather than the full title +description for just a few shows at a time.

- Andy

[edbmdave]

Originally posted by mlbdude
I think that is a problem Sage is encountering for non technical users. Too much info is confusing people. With this I want to show as little info as possible and as few possible actions on one screen but allow the user to get to more info if they want.

This theme is NOT for the experienced user, this is for that users wife and her mom :).

Agreed, The whole concept is eaze of use, and non-confusing... Simple is good.

While the STV is optimized around PVR, don't forget to add a "Media Library" and perhaps "Information" option on the main (Home) page to a cascade or submenu so we can showcase and access all of SageTV's potential (Below suggestion. Perhaps GTEEHAN can comment...)


Media Library (Home Menu Item)
- Shows (Archived Content)
- Music (Music Content)
-- Play CD (someday?)
-- Music Library (MP3, WMA, Playlists, etc..)
- Video (Imported (really hate that word) Video Content
-- Play DVD
-- Video Library (Archived Shows, MPEG2, MPEG4, AVI, DIVX, XVID, Video Playlists,etc)
- Pictures
-- Play Slideshow (CD/DVDs)
-- Picture Library (JPG, PNG, GIF, Slideshows, etc..)
- Arcade
-- Arcade Library (Mame?)
Information (Home menu item)
- Weather
- RSS News (Someday)
- Comics (Someday)
- Movie Showtimes (Someday)
- Web Browser (Someday)



MlbDude: I love the Gold/Black theme. I think you have done a great job so far. For the font, try the Blue Highway (Link in this thread above) I installed it and it really does make things much easier to read, and you can get more in the same space legiably.

Opus4: I don't know if you read through the report Roco linked in the initial posting of this thread but it will give you an idea of what we want to go for...

I will see what GTEEHAN might be able to provide while you are moving..

[edbmdave]

MlbDude: WOW.. You are fast.. Hope GTEEHAN will help us with actual images they used to speed this up.

[Opus4]

Originally posted by edbmdave
Opus4: I don't know if you read through the report Roco linked in the initial posting of this thread but it will give you an idea of what we want to go for...Yup sure did. :) (OK, I didn't read _every_ word...) And, I believe the screen on page 34, similar to what mlbdude created to show those 4 out of 40 recomendations, is completely at odds with the way the data is presented on page 30 and especially page 36. The problem with page 36, of course, is that it doesn't leave room to display the detailed info for the currently highlighted show. You want to make it easy for average users? Show the details of that highlighted show so they don't have to remember what to do to in order to have it displayed, yet continue to give them that larger list of shows to choose from.

- Andy

[kny3twalker]

man thats beautiful mlbdude
I hope you make some advanced features available
I do not use IR and hope there is more to that beautiful skin

[stanger89]

Originally posted by mlbdude
Here is the work in progress EPG real quick before I go to bed. :eek2:

[roco]

It has been incredible watching this dialog grow. I have been a user centered software advocate and experience architect on every dev. project I have worked on, and am very happy to see the hard work of a few extremely talented usability professionals, get such high acclaim from such a hardcore group of users and developers. My hat is off to the folks at teehan & lax tonight, for creating such a well thought out and well received pvr user experience. May your interface suggestions be found on millions of media centers around the globe soon.

Cheers,
roco

[PGPfan]

Holy Sh!t,

That looks GREAT!!

Mlbdude is there any chance of getting the feature that laurenglenn has done (images of IR shows) and use that for the "Recommendations" on the home page? Maybe he'd like to 'get on board' with part of the dev work.

Personally, I think that if gteehan can get you the images and fonts, etc. that you need, then Sage will be PERFECT.

Any thoughts on the implementation of the 'sharing of Reminders' feature? That would be too nice to have.

I also think that perhaps it could open a revenue stream for Frey. For example, CBS could spend some advertising money to have websites carry a 'banner' for the Olympics. Clicking on one could d/L the 'reminder' so you were (more or less) doing web scheduling.
Just a thought, but even if the 'banner' thing never were to materialize, sharing of Reminders would be cool to see.

Since my mind is flowing now, I'd love to see Frey partner with 'teehan+lax' and come out with the 'keyboard remote', heck if BTV can have the Firefly, well ....., I bet it would even do well as a stand alone remote.

Comments anyone?

-PGPfan

[mlbdude]

Page 36 is not going to happen :). Not exactly anyway. I agree it has too much information and is too confusing. The style will be the same though but probably broken into the two pane view with details on top and the list on the bottom. Not exactly sure though.

For now I am focusing on PVR use. Once I am done with that I will somehow figure out how to get the non-PVR stuff in without destroying the simplicity of the skin.

[Opus4]

Originally posted by mlbdude
Page 36 is not going to happen :).Aww... come on. ;) Beyond that joking comment... the nice part of the screen is the fact that the options for sorting/filtering are always shown, so the user doesn't have to wonder how to get to those options. I wonder if you could put a line of such options buttons across the top of the screen? (Or, just 1 button to acces such options.?) This is sort-of in response to such happenings as in the AnandTech review, where they complained about the Recording Schedule display style, but didn't know how to change it nor even that you _could_ change it. That seems to happen fairly often on these forums too - a lot of good options/choices are hidden from immediate view.

Of course, there is that balance between simplicity & availability of options. I think you (mlbdude) commented somewhere that having info on the screen to make it obvous that there were choices available would be a good thing. Hidden choices are dangerous for those who don't read manuals... or don't have a manual. ;)

Not exactly anyway. I agree it has too much information and is too confusing. The style will be the same though but probably broken into the two pane view with details on top and the list on the bottom.I guess I was 'voting' to keep the single-line show titles (so more fit on one screen) with the added detail pane at the top. And, obviously, I'm of the opinion that style would work better on the home page too for those recommendations. Once you try a listing style like that, it is hard go to back. :)

BTW -- I forgot to mention about that pop-up box when you select a show: perhaps consider "more options" instead of "other".

- Andy

[PGPfan]

Mlbdude,

I can understand having to somewhat change around page 36, but I'd definatly like to see the date format the way that it is in the teehan+lax UI. To me, xx days ago really is easier to understand when you are clicking your way through the UI.

Any thoughts on the sharing of recommendations?

-PGPfan

[jonlax]

Hey, I'm Jon Lax one of the authors of the report.

We are really excited on getting the implementation of our Avila interface (that's what we call it) up and running on Sage. The suggestions are great. We want to try and stay as true to the Avila spec that we have. We have a bunch of other screens and documentation that are not in the report that comprise Avila.

There has been a lot of time put into making Avila a best in class UI for PVRs. We have work to do but mlbdude is extremely fast. As we build this we may not post too much until we have it perfect.

We also have a next generation of Avila that we refer to as Pismo that answers some of the requests including a more robust Recommendations page.

I would ask people to remember that we are a company with staff and clients so sometimes we need to focus on our client work.

We want to see this come together and hopefully improve the Sage experience. We appreciate the feedback and even though you may not see some of it in Avila it may very well end up in Pismo or future UIs we develop.

Thanks,

Jon

[mbrown3]

Thanks for being willing to work with Sage folks to get a workable UI out with your ideas...we can provide some real-life testing ground for proving the UI which could in turn work its way into some more business for you folks...a win-win. Keep up the great work!

[edbmdave]

As far as the development on the STV goes this thread will be quiet for a while, both MlbDude and the folks at Teehan+Lax are otherwise occupied next week, so don't look for updates on the STV. However feel free to discuss and comment on the report in the 1st posting of this thread, and provide opinions.

[mightyt]

This is EXCELLENT !!! I love the dialog ... It proves that everyone has an opinion and the the UI is in the eyes of the beholder. I say once Studio is available for everyone, all the creativity will follow and maybe we'll see enough skins to meet everyone’s needs ... the kids, the wife and the geek :D

I am also impressed to see the intellectual community come together ... I am very impressed with Teehan's attitude.

One thought ... Sage has this cool networkability ... We're all used to the Import Feature ... How about an Export Feature? I'd like to select a separate default storage location on my net and be able to copy / move movie MPEG's over for me to burn to DVD later. Today I share out the Sage folder and go to another PC to copy, edit and burn. It would be cool to just export before or after I watch a show.

Another cool feature would be ... how about letting me input movie "reservations" if you will ... So, even though the movie I want to see is not in the EPG now, I can input a title or person and when it shows up in the EPG it will either record it for me or prompt me that it is available.


Oh. for fun I am attaching a screen shot of my modified Sage/MlbDude Main Manu ... I changed the title font, text wording, switched the icons around to my liking and gave Sage Logo a little wave !!:cool:

I'd love to see what others have done to make their own UI look and feel mods ....

[ToxMox]

I think it is important to note as I'm not sure if Teehan and Lax know that all the people participating in this thread are simply Sage users who want to make a great skin for SageTV. None of us are employees of Frey Technologies.

If this was already known please feel free to ignore me :)

[ToxMox]

OK I've seen this report before and I must say. I really really really like that remote control you guys designed. The keyboard idea is fantastic and I really like the pressure sensitive 5-way. Is there anything in the works to actually produce this remote and make it available to the public?

[justme]

Wierd. I read most of the report and the biggest thing I thought was never really going to work "realworld", was the KB on the remote. I've owned many a high end remote[Memorex(had button KB),Sony RM2100(had LCD KB),MX500,HST659,HST688] and while more buttons always seems better in concept. It almost always fails in the real world, IMHO. The large size is part of the reason for some of myremote upgrades over the years.

Having a keyboard at the top of my remote would feel like a waste of space to me. Rarely does it take more than 3 letters to get a match in Sage or Tivo. Besides looking at the KB layout, it looks like the keys are a little too close. One wrong keypress and you've just lost much of the time you save with a KB, over a virtual(onscreen) KB. I personally feel this is an area(of control) that won't really be properly addressed, until we get reliable voice control. Oh well, different people like different things, that's what makes life so interesting. :)

One great thing I'll say about the remote is the idea of the 5 way preasure wheel. It's an excellent idea and shoud be standard on every remote that has a navpad.:) Oh and the pager feature should be added to every remote too. There are so many lost and lonely remotes in this world and a pager could get them back into loving hands. ;)

/justme

[ErsatzTom]

I agree that for most casual use, the on screen keyboard is fine. When I know that I am going to be doing more "typing" in sage, I whip our my laptop and either run a client on it to make the changes or vnc into my htpc. I have a wireless keyboard for my htpc but I never, ever use it.

t

[ToxMox]

Yeah thats a good point. I rarely need to even use the virtual keyboard. I suppose it would come in very handy if one were using a web browser on their htpc.

[abasu2003]

How hard would it be to implement a T(word feature instead of a keyboard (like what cell phones use), or just have three letters attached to a number like regular phones?

[mikejaner]

I think the folks in the Girder forum have written a config for that. Anybody have a link?

[mbrown3]

I agree that it seems like overkill. That's the only thing about the remote that I don't like!

[jonlax]

I would encourage people to read this post on the remote.

http://pvr.teehanlax.com/archives/2004/07/our_remote_cont.php

It details some of our thinking on the remote.

We have tried to talk to Universal Remote Control about it but have been unsuccessful with getting anywhere. It would take some serious cash to get some made.

The thumb board actually is patented and would have to be licensed from RIM.

[mbrown3]

Yep, I read that and I realize that there may be undisclosed features, plus ability to customize folder names, etc., which is fine...I just think that those are typically the kind of things that are done once and then left for long periods of time without tweaking...which is why the virtual one may be a bit better in the long run, in terms of saving space and weight.

[jonlax]

Absolutely... we ideally see those actions done through a web based system or software interface.

Trust us, the thumb board looks cool on the remote but it would be the first thing to go.

Jon

[mbrown3]

Great, and THANKS for being willing to work on this (both in general, and with Sage folks). Of course, I use a HomeTheaterMaster MX500 for remoting, which I would probably "learn" from your remote...the main thing that I'm excited about is the pressure sensitive directional pad. If that works well enough, I may need to think of another solution for controlling all my gear through one remote. Thanks again for the great work.

[gteehan]

Just a quick note while on vacation regarding the keyboard on the remote.

One of our original goals of the screens was to keep the TV preview window viewable on most screens. Having an on-screen keyboard takes up quite a bit of real estate and would cause us to elimate the preview window - perhaps it is a good tradeoff. Dish Networks uses the number-pad to allow alpha-numeric input. I personally find them difficult to use and often resort to the large cumbersome GUI.

Jon and I have both agreed that designing a remote, be it form factor, layout or number of buttons is nearly impossible without using it in context of the system. It's all guesses right now and not a huge priority as we are focussing heavily on the interface. At first I was very passionate about the keyboard on the remote but I am now all for a better designed on screen input device as well as number pad input for those who love it. With the advances of Pizmo (our next release for those who are following) the need for searching may be decreased as we begin to provide access to programming in new ways.

Geoff

[PGPfan]

Geoff,

Thanks for the post. It was beginning to look like this thread was 'fading off into the sunset'.

I personally like the keyboard on the remote, but utimately it's probably a "can't please all the people, all the time" kind of thing.

Does anyone know if this .stv is still in the works?


-PGPfan

[stanger89]

Originally posted by PGPfan
Geoff,

Thanks for the post. It was beginning to look like this thread was 'fading off into the sunset'.

Does anyone know if this .stv is still in the works?


-PGPfan

mlbdude is in the process of moving so he hasn't been able to post/work on stuff lately. I have no doubt we'll see something as soon as things calm down for him.

[PGPfan]

stanger89,

As always, thanks for the 'limitless' info. You are incredibly helpful on this forum and AVS, which begs the question: How do you find the time to actually use Sage and your htpc?;)

-PGPfan

[Radar]

Originally posted by mlbdude
First question. Recommendations. It says 40 new. Those are the 40 IR recordings I have that have NOT been watched. Is that what it should be? It could also list the last x IR recordings it has recorded since I last clicked on Recommendations. Anyone? What I would prefer is if it showed true recommendations, not things that it was planning to record. In otherwords, the IR without actually recording. That way I could choose what it should record. More of a manual process that most people probably wouldn't like, but I only have so much space and time! This probably isn't doable with just Studio, it would be a core program change, correct?

Otherwise the rest of what you've done looks great!

[mls]

Originally posted by Radar
What I would prefer is if it showed true recommendations, not things that it was planning to record. In otherwords, the IR without actually recording.

Turn IR off in SageTV, then shut it down completely and edit this line in the properties file:

scheduler_export_file=schedule.txt

That will produce a text file listing everything SageTV would record, including what it would if IR was on.

Think someone had tried making something to scan that file, but don't know if they ever got anything to output it thru a STV option.

It may not be the best or easiest solution, but it would give you some idea as to what shows SageTV "thinks" you might like recorded.

[mlbdude]

Originally posted by Radar
What I would prefer is if it showed true recommendations, not things that it was planning to record. In otherwords, the IR without actually recording. That way I could choose what it should record. More of a manual process that most people probably wouldn't like, but I only have so much space and time! This probably isn't doable with just Studio, it would be a core program change, correct?

Otherwise the rest of what you've done looks great!

The way they designed their UI recommendations are supposed to be instant access. Different than the way Tivo lets you know of what is coming up. I would like both actually, but for the ultimate simple UI I have to agree with their method.

What I need to work with them on is are those 40 recommendations all of my unwatched IR recordings, or only the new ones since I last looked at my recommendations.

An an update, I hope to begin working this soon. The guys that developed the UI seem as excited as I am to do it. Just a few details to work out first :).

[PGPfan]

WooHoo!!!

Mlbdude, Thanks for the update! I hope all has been going smoothly with the move. I know I've sworn never to move again after my last one 1.5 years ago. Seems belongings multiply exponentially as I've gotten older.

One feature request for this UI. Can you embed Malore's commercial skip into it for release? That would be great.

And finally, have you done any thinking as to the viability of the teehan-lax concept of 'sharing' show recording recommendations?
I think having this type of functionality will only help to distinguish Sage apart from the others as more of a 'community' of users.

Thoughts?

-PGPfan

[mlbdude]

This UI change will be an entirely new way of using SageTV so any of the concepts they have may be in it. It will probably be awhile before anyone can play with it or we release a feature list though. So if you don't hear anything it is not because it is dead. We just want to keep user expectations at a minimum. :)

I am watching the commercial skip thread, but until it is closer to 100% accurate (if it can ever get there with the evil networks working against it) I probably won't include it.

[Radar]

Originally posted by mlbdude
The way they designed their UI recommendations are supposed to be instant access. Different than the way Tivo lets you know of what is coming up. I would like both actually, but for the ultimate simple UI I have to agree with their method. Yeah, sorry about that, I guess I was giving my own request rather than following the guidelines of the document. mls gave some help with that. Cool stuff either way.

[PGPfan]

It will probably be awhile before anyone can play with it or we release a feature list though. So if you don't hear anything it is not because it is dead. We just want to keep user expectations at a minimum.

I just hope when you say 'awhile', you mean faster than the releasing of "Sage Studio". ;)


-PGPfan

[broderp]

A few questions: (Don't scare off the untechnical here.;) )

1. The original UI is a 16x9 format, this is why it looks and works so well. Are "we" doing a 16x9 ui or a 4:3 or BOTH??

2. I suppose this may be in the works, but if you look closely at the buttons, some of them have DETAIL, shading and or highlighting that make them look like a 3D object--SORT-OF (Think a strip os SILICONE reflecting light) This also makes the UI standout.

3. As "simplified" as this UI is, I don't think we should lose the control we now have (speaking about the OEM UI, not the add on skins). A simple menu addition to add these functions should be done.

4. Again, the UI is appealing because of the DETAILS that help the less technical of us. For example, the HOUSE ICON ,and the scroll bars add familiarity and improve the astetics of the UI. They should be included, especially since we now seem to have the help and blessing of the designer.

5. Will menus be TRANSPARENT like they currently are?? I hope we still have that choice.

6. I've only seem one post reguarding this.....WHO WILL BE DOING THE REMOTE CONTROL??:D This thing is AWESOME. I would prefer a PLAY, PAUSE,STOP, FF,RR buttons, but can learn to use the wheel. Also, LEAVE the KEYBOARD ON!!!! I do lots of searches by title, and the onscreen is great, but to directly type in would be outstanding!


Just my 2 cents worth.

Raymond

PS, plese put me down as a TESTER for this skin when released! And please make it SIMPLE to install. PLEASE try to incorporate as much needed in a single download to avoid having to install and hack in several other software pieces just to get it to work. INSTRUCTIONS for install would be great.

[PGPfan]

broderp,

I don't know if it helps or not, but my guess would be that it will be 4:3 AR. If you look at the quick 'mock up' that Mlbdude did, it is in 4:3. Although 16:9 seems nice, I don't think it's really practical right now since Sage is only (officially) capable of STV (Standard Definition Tv) which is only 4:3.

I do think that this UI will still work great in STV, especially if the DETAILS are kept.

I agree on the remote. I'd participate in some type of 'pre-order' arraingement if the teehan-lax guys were to need some confirmed buyers in order to have a batch of remotes made up.


-PGPfan

[broderp]

I suppose it could be done either way, if they were to take into account the aspect ratio difference, and make all the menus "squished" so when put on a HDTV, the set will perportion it correctly on a wide screen.


Either way, it looks promising. I only wish I had studio or could help further along the process in any way.

[jonlax]

We rescaled it for 4:3. We redid the graphics. We designed everything so that we could scale the UI to different ratios and resolutions. We had to tweak some of the guide screens because we lost some real estate.

[ToxMox]

Originally posted by mlbdude
I am watching the commercial skip thread, but until it is closer to 100% accurate (if it can ever get there with the evil networks working against it) I probably won't include it.

It is unfortunate that you probably won't include it. I use comskip and for the most part it works very well. You could put it in and have the ability to disable it for those who don't want it or default it to disabled and the ones who want it can enable it.

[Radar]

How would other modules like weather fit into a UI guide like this? They aren't mentioned in the guide, but I'm sure there are many who would like to see it included.

[jonlax]

Avila (the interface in the report) was designed to be a PVR system and wasn't designed with things like weather modules to be added to it. It was just trying to be a great PVR interface and we constrained it to a very specific feature set.

We are working on a next generation of Avila called Pismo which is designed as a Digital Media Server which would have things like weather modules.

The home screen could have a weather option in the menu but I would not encourage altering Avila in that way. That home menu could get busy if you kept adding options to it.

If the options exceed the real estate we would need to create some scrolling mechanism which we don't have.

Jon

[ToxMox]

Not sure if you are aware but Pismo was a series of Powerbook G3s 4-6 years ago.

[jonlax]

Ya, we remembered it after we named them. We name our releases after surfing breaks. They are only names for us to refer to them. They will inherit a product name if/ever we license them.

Jon

[broderp]

WAIT A MINUTE:eek: :eek:

Back the boat up......


:jump:


Are we (sage studio experts) developing this skin for the guys who wrote the article or are we (sage studio guys) doing this for the forum?

I LOVE the NATURAL flow and "intuitivness" of their idea, I've always stated that I felt sage was "worded oddly" or really required a manual because of this.

I like the way I as a newby can figure it out without so much as a manual. (apparently) I also like the color sceme.

I sure hope we dont STRIP SAGE down to just a PVR for the sake of this experiment, as jonlax seems to be stating as fact.

Also, think of this, (I'm second guessing my initial excitement now) how INTUITIVE and EASY will it really be WITHOUT the REMOTE CONTROL? We obviously wont have the remote that literally SPEAKS at us (ok figuratively speaks) telling us what to press or do.

We all will have the same remotes we have now, and unless we're on a pronto or other high end remote we can change, will have re-label/memorize that the old TV button now is programmed as a THEME button and so forth. Its really gonna have to be a entire package to be done right to see if the thoughts and great ideas truly do work out.

Anyways, just the target users 2cents worth, but please dont strip away JUKEBOX, DVD and PLEASE ADD the WEATHER MODULE!

:goodjob:

[PGPfan]

I personally wouldn't get too worried over the mismatched remote issue. All remotes in one way or another are 'mismatched' to Sage right now so it wouldn't take too much tweaking to get it all right.

As for the weather, etc., I'd like to see it built in (I guess) but Sage has always been about becoming THE preeminent PVR in the world, bar none. The have always been focused on backend first, flashy looks later. If they only accomplish a .stv file with just the teehan-lax PVR UI, then in my opinion they have succeeded in doing just that. It would appear VERY different than any other PVR, yet leaps and bounds better to the casual user. Would certainly differentiate Sage from the rest in a market that is becoming more crowded every day.

As for the other Sage 'features', I don't personally care for the way the music is handled, I prefer using myHTPC (now Meedio) for this. The weather, while nice finally in Sage, is also nicely done with Meedio, or Xlobby, or MainLobby, etc. It just doesn't seem to me to be a huge benefit to Sage.

But, maybe that's just me......


-PGPfan

[broderp]

I just don't think we should remove functionality of sage or improve it to be able to use this skin.


Jonlax seems to think (maybe rightfully so) the skin will be done to THEIR preference, and not OURS (as a community that is)

Just give us the interface, and colors etc... call it what you want, if Jonlax says that Avilia was just a PVR, then I guess we should be working on Pismo.

[jonlax]

I think I was misunderstood. All I was saying was that what we designed didn't consider elements like weather. To try to make Avila incorporate things it wasn't designed to do isn't ideal. This means it may lack some features but we believe it would add value to Sage and its users.

It isn't really about OUR preference or YOUR preference I was merely stating that trying to make Avila do things we never considered in the design could have a negative impact on the overall user experience.

We are trying to monitor quality control on what we designed. We are very proud of what we designed and are honoured that you guys like it enough to want it.

I hope this clears up this issue. Perhaps if we start a list of features that need to be included in future UIs we can better design for the needs of Sage users.

Jon

[edbmdave]

Originally posted by broderp
I just don't think we should remove functionality of sage or improve it to be able to use this skin.

There are really two things here. First, As 90% of the users of Sage are looking for a Great PVR, having a UI that focus just on that is not a loss at all, but taking that Great PVR component and making it near perfect. Second there is What Sage can be. I think Jonlax has indicated that that is in parallel to another piece of work they have under development. So the initial scope was to focus on the PVR portion. Note this initial UI will probably not satify the ubergeeks out there. But I know it will satisify my wife, my mom, my grandmother, my sister-in-law, my father-in-law, etc. They have no computer exerience and really don't want it. For that matter most people only want to be an occasional user of a computer, not an expert.


Jonlax seems to think (maybe rightfully so) the skin will be done to THEIR preference, and not OURS (as a community that is)


As this UI is their intellectual property, they definately have say in this. But they are interested in our feedback, and how we might improve on it. Keep that in mind. You will probably be more interested in the follow on work that encompasses more of what Sage will be able to provide as a Home Entertainment System and not just a PVR.


Just give us the interface, and colors etc... call it what you want, if Jonlax says that Avilia was just a PVR, then I guess we should be working on Pismo.

They are giving it to us, but under their guidance as it is their name, their creditabily, their UI, and their intellectual property, one really can't ask for more.

Baby steps first. Make one thing, and make it right, then improve on it. If what you are to 90% of your focused audience is a PVR, then you better make the best PVR you can, before you start branching out. So many have failed by ignoring this time and time again. The history of the internet is written in the failures of those who ignored this.

[broderp]

edbmdave,jonlax

I mean no disrespect with my comments in this thread. I just have been very frustrated as a SAGE user for months now, as we were promised a little program called STUDIO that would allow us to CUSTOMIZE our copies of SAGE. I know how I would lay out the program, and evryone else knows how they would lay it out, unfortunately, those with the ability (and no disrespect to them and the great things they have done) aren't making any skins for me.

I'm kinda the "MIDDLE" user, much more than the 90% who just need a decent PVR, but also much less than the 10% who are UBER GEEKS and need every bit of functionality, and know how to TWEEK to get it. Call me a "WEEKEND GEEK"!:D

My moto is KEEP IT SIMPLE, KEEP IT CHEAP. This does not refer to features or UI though, just COST of SOFTWARE and EASE OF INSTALL and SETUP.

RULE 1: KEEP IT SIMPLE: I want one program that will satisfy all my PVR/HTPC needs. SAGE IS without a doubt my program of choice. It can be a FRONT END, DVD PLAYER, MEDIA PLAYER, and with STUDIO, can be a platform to lauch other programs, can plug in modules (Like the weather module). I PAID for those abilities, or based my purchace on facts and information provided to me by Frey about the STUDIO release to give me the power of re-tooling it for my needs.

So to me, to STRIP SAGE of the DVD PLAYER, and everything it comes with standard, violates rule 1 AND RULE 2.

RULE 2: KEEP IT CHEAP. I invested xxxDOLLARS in SAGE with XX amount of functionality. To strip away these features (which are good enough for the 90% of us, or the "weekend geek" would mean more expence to buy and setup more software (see rule 1) to do the features we strip from SAGE.

This is my delema.:confused:

I respect the idea you have in print, but respectfully say that any one who sat and thought of this would have/could have/ may have came out with something very close if not down right similar to your layout. I know mine was very similar indeed, but yours surpassed my ideas with the remote implementation, and color scheme, 16x9 layout.

I also don't see how adding a few extra selections to the home page, and eliminating ones we aren't going be able to implement (Like the recieved messages feature, and send to friend stuff) would "hurt" the exercise and improvements to the idea you guys came up with.

I suppose there is a part of me that just keeps hitting a brick wall :bang: :bang: because I am relying on others for everything, and I really have no control except to wait and hope those who do have control will listen, or do what they have done in the past....thier own thing. WHich of course is thier right.

:blush:

Thanks for letting me vent my anger at SAGE for not releasing STUDIO!:p

[broderp]

BUMP....

How we doing on this?

[PGPfan]

Since this tread was rudely 'spammed', I thought I just bump it a little. Mlbdude, any updates? Do you think this will be doable before the end of the year?

Thanks!

-PGPfan

[gteehan]

For whatever reason there has been some radio silence on this one. We're still more then willing to help out on this. It was my impression the guys at Frey wanted to formalize something. I passed some contact info on but no word yet. We'll see.

geoff

[PGPfan]

Hi Geoff,

Could you elaborate on the 'formalize' part? I originally thought that this might come as a new .stv from mlbdude, but formalize makes it sound as though it would possibly be a new implementation via the Frey guys (Jeff and Dan). I just wish we could have it soon, or at least have an idea if it is even still on the radar.

One thing is for sure, if/when Studio gets released 'I' will work to implement this myself. I just don't understand why the 'troups' can get all excited over something (MVP support, this UI, etc.) and then it dissappears like a 'fart in a hurricane'.

Thanks for your post/bump!


-PGPfan

[gteehan]

Our original intention was to simply supply mlbdude with the appropriate assets to implement the Avila UI. In fact, we had already begun the process. mlbdude then suggested it may be a good idea for us (teehan+lax) to discuss this endeavor with Frey. We agreed and passed along our contact info - haven't heard back yet. I'm sure these guys are very busy. If and when this becomes a priority for them I'm hopeful we will hear from them. Until then, we'll have to be patient for this UI to come to Sage.

geoff

[stanger89]

geoff,

Glad to know there's no missunderstandings going on, you had me worried with your previous post.

Either way, if it comes from mlbdude or Frey, it will be good for Sage:)

[Opus4]

Originally posted by PGPfan
I just don't understand why the 'troups' can get all excited over something (MVP support, this UI, etc.) and then it dissappears like a 'fart in a hurricane'.Interesting choice of words... mlbdude's profile mentions living in Florida. I suppose you've followed the news about Florida lately?

Anyway, even if hurricanes have nothing to do with it, he has said fairly recently that he moved & was busy with work. Any of these STVs that don't come from Frey are done by people in their spare time & the amount of spare time people have can vary greatly.

- Andy

[PGPfan]

Hi Opus4,

I actually didn't even consider mlbdude's location (I know he recently moved, is he still in FL?) when I posted this. All I meant was that many folks seem to get all "hot and bothered" over an idea for something like this (especially the MVP support) and now it is 'dead in the water'.

With the HUGE flurry of interest this created in the beginning, I'm simply amazed that it seems to be on the back shelf until who knows when. I visited SHS's site to see of any status on MVP support and it seems that we still need Studio (even though I remember mlbdude opening up needed file access) to make any headway here.

I truely believe that once the 'teehan-lax' UI is in the hands of the masses it will be the 'Opus Magnum' of PVR's. I LOVE Sage, I just look forward to the day when NOBODY will have anything that can compare. I think this UI could be a MAJOR push in that direction.

No offense intended with my original wording.


-PGPfan

[Opus4]

I was simply trying to point out that the amount of free time that people have to dedicate to such projects can easily change, preventing someone from doing what they originally intended. I know that I can certainly vouch for that! :)

Also, if others are waiting for a key person to finish something, a whole project can go idle.

- Andy

[broderp]

Seems like SAGE will be Officailly working on this, which means THIS:

WE WILL SEE IT IN A TIMELY MANOR, JUST LIKE STUDIO.:mad:

I sure hope Mdldude hasn't dropped the ball and left it for sage to do, cause you may as well consider it dead, if so , has anyone else picked up where he left off?


YES, YES, YES, I know it's all done as time permits, but by golly, that just infuriates me as it's just ONE MORE reason MORE people should have access to STUDIO!!!:flaming:

I sit up every night from 8-1Am with nothing to do but watch TV as my kids sleep. Such a wasted use of a resource.:bang:

[ToxMox]

Dude you need to chill out a little bit.

[stanger89]

Yeah you're starting to sound almost like "the one who will not be named" :D

[kny3twalker]

LOL

[iain]

OK, I am willing to pay money to see this happen.
Who actually has the technology ie. Studio to do this? I know mlbdude was keen but has disapeared. My setup is ready to go but the interface is way beyond my intended audience :)

[PGPfan]

Iain-

I agree with you, and I'd be willing to 'pony up' some cash to see this come to the light of day. I wish Mlbdude would drop by just to say "not gonna doit" or "in the works" or 'something'. I'm beginning to think that there are alot of things that people want from Sage, and it looks like our only options will ultimately be to look at other software apps to accomplish these tasks. That, to me, is a HUGE shame as I've been a Sage follower since the very beginning.

-PGPfan

[mightyt]

Originally posted by PGPfan
Iain-

I agree with you, and I'd be willing to 'pony up' some cash to see this come to the light of day. I wish Mlbdude would drop by just to say "not gonna doit" or "in the works" or 'something'. I'm beginning to think that there are alot of things that people want from Sage, and it looks like our only options will ultimately be to look at other software apps to accomplish these tasks. That, to me, is a HUGE shame as I've been a Sage follower since the very beginning.

-PGPfan

This may give you an idea of where MlbDude is heading ...

http://forums.sage.tv/forums/showthread.php?threadid=5755&perpage=40&highlight=mlbdude&pagenumber=14

I understand that this thread is looking for some major UI changes, but a lot of folks are thrilled with Nielm's STV ... it's got the best of Malore, MlbDude, Salsbst and adds in a great customizable menu ...

T.

[broderp]

Looks like this hot potato has been DROPPED.

I'll guarantee as soon as STUDIO gets released, there will be a clone of it, it's too good to just throw away. They spent a lot of time to think that layout out, even my wife can figure it out without a manual.

[audio]

Just wanted to add a comment about Avila. Great UI ideas, love the HTPC designed remote. In keeping with the themes "Hide technical challenges", "Make it Flow", "Keep it Simple" and making intuitive defaults, I'd like to suggest an improvement for the recommendation on page 37: Recording Live Television. Item 1: "Shows when you began recording." To me, the default action invoked by pressing record while watching a program which is not already being recorded would be to record the current program from the earliest point available in the buffer. A press and hold of the Record button of the well designed remote might bring up an advanced options (semi-transparent) dialog of "Record from beginning", "Record from now", or something similar.
My thinking is that the need to record a program being watched will typically occur during channel surfing, and at some point, the viewer realizes - "hey, I like this - I'd better record it", or "my spouse might like this". The use case as presented appears to be - "I've been watching and want to leave, so I'll record the rest of this", which may be a more common situation, but just not for me.
Anyway, thanks to Teehan+Lax for sharing their UI concepts - looking forward to mlbdude's implementation and Studio for the masses.