Utterly confused (Additional Quality Settings)

[FreeBSD4me]

Hi all.

I’m totally lost on the instructions provided for adding quality settings. In the FAQ, it says to “add the following lines” to the Sage Properties File, however does not indicate exactly where to do so. So, I tried adding those settings right after the Sage default ones. Start Sage back up, and go to quality settings, but the new ones are not appearing.

Then I tried again by placing them all at the bottom of the file –still nothing. Then I tried literally replacing the Sage defaults with the new one, but again nothing. All that continues to appear are the default settings. Does anyone know exactly where these are supposed to go, and where they’re supposed to show up?

Many thanks.

[TiltRod]

the location of the addition doesn't matter, however the format does. i.e. proper use of the escape character "\". Also, make sure that the python encoder name matches the quality line name reference.

if you like, add the new properties to the end of your sage.properties file and PM me for verification. I may be able to see what is going wrong.

-D

[TiltRod]

FreeBSD4me,

Okay, found your problem.

(1) Remove the space from the mmc/python2_encoding lines at the peakvideobitrate. "75000 00" should be "7500000".

(2) Also remove the spaces from the seeker/recording_qualities lines "Best-VariableRate=Best - Variable Rate,384,48000,7500000" should be "Best-VariableRate=Best-VariableRate,384,48000,7500000".

I tested this and it works. Apply same procedures to each custom setting.

Hope that this helps. Happy encoding.

-D

[Opus4]

You can use spaces in the names, but if they were copied directly from the forum, the format may get changed a bit. The below lines work for me, but they don't get formatted correctly on 1 line even when I use any forum format tags.

mmc/python2_encoding/Best\ -\ Variable\ Rate=videobitrate\=6000000|width\=720|height\=480|audiobitrate\=384|vbr\=1|peakvideobitrate\=9000000

seeker/recording_qualities/Best\ -\ Variable\ Rate=Best - Variable Rate,384,48000,9000000

Edit: these settings were modified from those in the FAQ.

- Andy

[TiltRod]

Opus4,

I agree with you. I just figured FreeBSD4me would prefer the quickest method and avoid keeping track of escape characters. Ultimately it's his choice. I personally, like spaces and use them in all my custom qualities so the options list in sage looks better.

I, also like to put special characters at the beginning of the list name, so my qualities show up first in the options menu.

seeker/recording_qualities/\!Best-VariableRate=Best-VariableRate,384,48000,7500000

[Opus4]

OK -- I just wanted to clarify that names could be in the name of the setting. :)

I don't claim to know all these rules, though -- my settings were pretty much copied from that FAQ & then modified for my preferences, but I don't really know where I _have_ to have backslashes for example. As you can see, our lines differ in that regard; I just left them the way I found them since I didn't feel like experimenting to fix what already seemed to be working.

- Andy

[FreeBSD4me]

Thanks for the replies.

I don’t think the 75000 00 appeared correctly due to the formatting of the PM. The text file here ‘is’ displaying the correct value, which is 7500000, or at least how I’m seeing it. The spaces in “Best-VariableRate=Best-VariableRate,384,48000,7500000” “were” present, so I fixed those. It still doesn’t work, which leads me to believe I’m still messing something up here. I included my properties file as an attachment in this message, so hopefully the original formatting will stay intact. If you someone could look at it, I’d appreciate it.

Thanks,

Dave

[Opus4]

You did edit your properties file while SageTV was closed (not just sleeping), right? I don't remember whether it matters if the lines are after the "zzz=true" line at the end.

About the only differences between your lines & mine are the backslashes before the equal signs after the setting name (see my post, above).

- Andy

[FreeBSD4me]

Ok, well, I’m not having any luck. I do appreciate the help. I'll just wait until Sage comes out with a way that may be a little easier to adjust/ switch bit rates through the interface. For now, I’ll just work with what’s available.

Thanks,

Dave

[TiltRod]

FreeBSD4me,

You still need to remove the space betwee "Variable" and "Rate" in your seeker lines that should fix the problem.

And to reemphasize that sage must be shut down when making the changes.

-D

Actually in the interest of time, try using this attachment. I edited the custom quality lines myself. I changed the naming convention a bit to illustrate the relationship better, as well as make it simpler. Everything else is the same, and worked on my system.

Give it a try and tell me what happens

[Opus4]

Oh yeah -- I missed those extra spaces making the names different between the python & seeker lines... glad you noticed it. :thumb:

- Andy

[FreeBSD4me]

FreeBSD4me,

You still need to remove the space betwee "Variable" and "Rate" in your seeker lines that should fix the problem.

And to reemphasize that sage must be shut down when making the changes.

-D

Actually in the interest of time, try using this attachment. I edited the custom quality lines myself. I changed the naming convention a bit to illustrate the relationship better, as well as make it simpler. Everything else is the same, and worked on my system.

Give it a try and tell me what happens

Hey, thanks man.

The system is recording a couple of shows until 11:00. After that, I’m going to hurry on in there and try these out:) Oh, and yes, I ‘always’ shut Sage down after making changes –even in cases where it says you don’t have to. I'll let you know what happens.

Really appreciate it!

Dave

[Opus4]

Oh, and yes, I ‘always’ shut Sage down after making changesI realize that might have been a typo, but just in case it wasn't... shut down SageTV before editing the properties file, or your changes will get overwritten when you exit SageTV. :)

- Andy

[FreeBSD4me]

I realize that might have been a typo, but just in case it wasn't... shut down SageTV before editing the properties file, or your changes will get overwritten when you exit SageTV. :)

- Andy

Yep, that's exactly what I meant. I never edit any fille (if I can help it), that's loaded into memory.

D.

[mls]

You did edit your properties file while SageTV was closed (not just sleeping), right? I don't remember whether it matters if the lines are after the "zzz=true" line at the end.


I don't know what it does with lines after the zzz, but if I accidently put a line in somewhere else out of alphabetical order SageTV seems to move it around by itself to the correct position. Had that happen twice now and it took me a minute to figure out what happenned to the line I thought I had added.


About the only differences between your lines & mine are the backslashes before the equal signs after the setting name (see my post, above).


On mine, if I leave out the backslashes before certain characters SageTV seems to add them in by itself. It may not always do that, but it did add in the backslash before the equals in all of my custom recording lines.

[FreeBSD4me]

Excellent. All of them are showing up.

I know I’m being a pain, but could I request one small favor? When I look at the new quality settings in STV, a number of them do not display the GB per hour they’ll consume –they just display something like Fair-VariableRate. My math and understanding of how to calculate the GB per hour rates is somewhat lacking, so would someone mind filling in the GB per hour blanks for me here?

seeker/recording_qualities/Best-VariableRate=BestVBR,384,48000,7500000
seeker/recording_qualities/Fair-VariableRate=FairVBR,384,48000,3000000
seeker/recording_qualities/Good-VariableRate=GoodVBR,384,48000,4500000
seeker/recording_qualities/Great-VariableRate=GreatVBR,384,48000,6000000
seeker/recording_qualities/HighestQuality-4.25GBperhr=HQ4PT25CBR,384,48000,9500000
seeker/recording_qualities/HighestQuality-VariableRate=HQVBR,384,48000,9000000
seeker/recording_qualities/MPEG2MaxQuality-VariableRate=MPEG2MaxQualVBR,384,48000,12575000

For some reason, even the 4.25 Gig per hour rating is not showing up in the quality settings screen. I assume that if I alter the above lines, then I must make those same changes to the mmc/python2_encoding lines as well in my properties file?

Finally, if it’s not asking too much, (and again forgive my ignorance), could someone please provide a brief explanation of what (for example), 384,48000,7500000 actually mean? What part of the picture quality does each one affect? For example, does the adjusting of one of them affect how much graineness, (no such real word) appears in video with higher motion, etc?

I know how silly these questions may sound, but if I knew how each one affected performance, then I’d know what I was actually doing, and what to look for when messing with each one. If it would take too long to explain here, no problem –maybe at some point in the future, someone could explain this in the FAQ, or maybe a detailed explanation, which explains each one has been posted here already?

Many thanks again,

Dave

[Opus4]

if it’s not asking too much could someone please provide a brief explanation of what (for example), 384,48000,7500000 actually mean?The FAQ entry you mentioned in the first post contains the link to the following document: Hauppauge Cards & Recording Quality (http://sage.tv/2_papers/HPquality.txt). That document explains the format for the custom quality settings for Hauppauge cards.

- Andy

[FreeBSD4me]

Ahh, that makes it a little easier to understand. I still wish I know what the other settings do, or how they affect performance. For example, gopsize or inversetelecine, or the dnrtemporalmultfactor, etc. I know that if I searched long enough, I may find these on google, but just the same, a laymen’s terms explanation of what these actually do, and an example blurb of when to utilize them would be a great help for those of us that like to get our hands dirty under the hood. I know I could simply experiment with them, but without knowing what it is I should be looking for (in the resulting video), it could take some time to figure out.

Anyway… I’m not complaining; I’m enjoying this very much, and suppose a little overanxious in understanding the full scope of what these many settings are capable of achieving.

Thanks for the help Andy,

Dave

[TiltRod]

Try these settings in the attachment. However, the only true way to know the right sizes is to record something at each quality and change the numbers later.

-D

[mls]

My math and understanding of how to calculate the GB per hour rates is somewhat lacking, so would someone mind filling in the GB per hour blanks for me here?


Although technically inaccurate, below is how Frey/Hauppauge appear to have calculated GB per hour. Reason it's inaccurate is because the audio channel(s) bitrate should also be included and VBR will vary the the total amount. Anyway, basically it works out like this...

bitrate (in bits per second) divided by 8 (to get Bytes per second) times 60 seconds (to get Bytes per minute) times 60 minutes (to get Bytes per hour). The formula then is:

[bitrate / 8] x 60 x 60 = GB per hour

This can be further reduced to:

[bitrate / 8] x 3600 = GB per hour

As an example, the "DVD Extra Long Play ~ 1.8GB per hour" setting works out like this:

[4000000 / 8] x 3600 = 1800000000 or 1.8GB per hour

I hope this wasn't too confusing to follow.

[FreeBSD4me]

Although technically inaccurate, below is how Frey/Hauppauge appear to have calculated GB per hour. Reason it's inaccurate is because the audio channel(s) bitrate should also be included and VBR will vary the the total amount. Anyway, basically it works out like this...

bitrate (in bits per second) divided by 8 (to get Bytes per second) times 60 seconds (to get Bytes per minute) times 60 minutes (to get Bytes per hour). The formula then is:

[bitrate / 8] x 60 x 60 = GB per hour

This can be further reduced to:

[bitrate / 8] x 3600 = GB per hour

As an example, the "DVD Extra Long Play ~ 1.8GB per hour" setting works out like this:

[4000000 / 8] x 3600 = 1800000000 or 1.8GB per hour

I hope this wasn't too confusing to follow.

Thanks so much. That does help. For me, it’d be easier, and because of the large files we’re dealing with here if everything could be stated in Mbps or Gigs by default, but this is still the standard in the computer industry overall, so it would seem. Even Kbps wouldn’t be too bad, but bytes is something I think of back in the days of the 9600 bps modem for example. Anyway, it’s a complaint indicative of the mathematically inept I suppose --that would be me :D

Appreciate the time MLS

D.

[FreeBSD4me]

Try these settings in the attachment. However, the only true way to know the right sizes is to record something at each quality and change the numbers later.

-D

You people are too kind. I’m going to purchase Sage in the next day or so, but now I almost feel guilty that I cannot somehow repay the forum. I know that sounds strange, but of all the forums I’ve participated in, I’ve never seen so many people willing to help out, and they don’t leave you hanging for several days either. If there are any other industry publications considering a review of STV, I do hope they make mention of this community, as it’s one of the best things the product has going for it!

Thanks,

Dave

[mls]

Even Kbps wouldn’t be too bad, but bytes is something I think of back in the days of the 9600 bps modem for example. Anyway, it’s a complaint indicative of the mathematically inept I suppose --that would be me :D


Just thought I'd toss in a couple other side notes to clearify a few things.

The notation for bits should be a small "b", while for Bytes it should be a capitol "B". Not everbody does this, so there are times things can become confusing.

So, in your comment about a 9600 bps modem, that references 9600 bits per second (not Bytes as you seem to implied).

Transfer speeds for things like modems, Ethernet adaptors, and hard drives are normally giving in bits per second. However, file sizes are in Bytes.

Since it is handy to know roughly how much file (disk) space would be required for a video recording we often talk about (Mega or Giga) Bytes per hour (even though internally everything else is usually referenced to in bits).

A bit is the smallest size of data (a single on or off value). A Byte is 8 bits. There are other older terms not used very often now anymore such as a Word which is half a Byte, or 4 bits.

You'll get used to all of the terms in time like I have after 20 years of messing with computers :smokin:

[kny3twalker]

you did get this worked out right?
I really felt there were not enough choices and want some variable rate choices as well
I tried to follow the default qualities format with names and such (I hope my names were ok)
I added the text file as well on the FAQ to try to make it easier
maybe I should just reinstall install SageTV and add the new qualities
but then people would have to add the qualities when they first install

if you want a certain quality
I would be happy to type it up for you

Robert

[FreeBSD4me]

So, in your comment about a 9600 bps modem, that references 9600 bits per second (not Bytes as you seem to implied).




*Chuckle* Yes, that was a blunder I realized later, but somehow didn’t get back to editing the message. It’s pretty funny that I manage 4 of my own servers, and love to hack within the Unix world –even the Vbulliten forum for example, which I run a heavily modified version of, yet I still get stumped on bits and bytes? Funny stuff :rolleyes2

Thanks MLS,

Dave

[FreeBSD4me]

you did get this worked out right?
I really felt there were not enough choices and want some variable rate choices as well
I tried to follow the default qualities format with names and such (I hope my names were ok)
I added the text file as well on the FAQ to try to make it easier
maybe I should just reinstall install SageTV and add the new qualities
but then people would have to add the qualities when they first install

if you want a certain quality
I would be happy to type it up for you

Robert


Hey Rob, sorry for the delayed reply, but I was never notified of the new responses. It’s probably because I viewed the ‘last posted message’ by refreshing my browser, instead of actually returning to the site, which would have set a new cookie session. As a result, (or at least in most cases), VB assumes that you haven’t read the message yet, and will not send any further notifications until you do.

As for the qualities, excellent work, and again, the time you took to do that was very much appreciated. So, here’s where I’m at with my testing: After two weeks of tweaking, I’m running the following config:

Decoder: Intervideo default decoder
Renderer: Overlay
DXVA: Interlacing –Bob and Weave
Bitrate: 4.5 Gigs per hour

Yes, my message is a little verbose, but in case you’re interested, here’s a small review of my test results thus far:

So far, the above settings yield the closest thing I’m going to get to the actual raw feed. Still though, dark scenes still appear to be having a few problems, in that sometimes you don’t see the details of a black/ dark background scene –it just sort of washes out in a dull black. There’s still a little more room for adjustment here, but you have to be careful, as it’s easy to washout normal ‘brighter’ scenes.

Now, you’re probably wondering why I’m not using the Ndvd encoder. Well.. I played around with this for days, but could not get it to look quite right, however I think it’s really more to do with personal viewing preference. You see, I find that Ndvd has a tendency to smoooooooth everything out too much. With Intervideo, you get what looks to be a “real time rendering look” and most notably a pastel look on faces when people move around too fast. Sort of looks like you can see the system actually trying to stabilize the resolution, until they’re still again. Does that sound right? Not sure how else to explain it, but I’m sure you know what I mean.

Does Ndvd correct this? Well, yes, sort of. It seems to mask the graininess on fast motion by (what looks to be) smoothing everything out. The problem with this is that you lose clarity and sharpness. As a result, I find myself really pushing the limits of the “image sharpness” setting trying to compensate. Moving images in ‘darker scenes’ seem to get lost in the wash, as it looks like it’s trying to mask the grainyness you’d typically see with Intervideo. With this decoder, I find myself straining my eyes to look for detail.

This is likely more of a problem with me and my extreme fussyness in trying to match the PVR to the precise performance of the raw signal. For the most part (with both decoders), the only real deficiency I find myself challenging is the ability to get rid of that ----what looks to be the system trying to render faces or skin colors when they move too fast. To the average untrained eye, I don’t even think they’d notice, but to me, I tend to notice it a lot more. Here are the shows that work best for testing:

NYPD blue: Excellent for testing a multitude of dark scenes with fast camera sweeps. If your skin colors are going to distort on movement, this is where you’ll see it.

CSI Vegas: Excellent for testing on very dark scenes. In this show, you can test for how well background information shows up in a dark room.

CNN and MSNBC. Both have varying dynamic range, but are excellent for tuning colors and daytime/ bright scenes.

One note: On a number of programs such as CSI, Law & Order, etc, they’re using some sort of digital smoothing effect, (not sure how to explain it), so this can throw you off at times. While running in “raw video mode”, it’s not that noticeable, but this seems to confuse the decoder at times. As a result, sometimes you’re not sure it it’s the decoder, or the “altered effects” the show is sending to the decoder. Thing is, there’s so much compression going on, it’s easy to yield a great picture on bright scenes, but the true test is how it handles high motion, or darker scenes.

All in all, I’m quite happy with STV and the PVR 250. I wish there were more decoders I could test drive, but the selection of them seems to be fairly sparse. I tried many searches on Google, but all you get is a confusing pile of everything but the kitchen sink. I was hoping to find a simple list of decoders to trial test, but no luck. Once again… I’m quite happy with the product, as well as all the help you people have provided.

Thanks again,

Dave