Padding question?

[mrrrl]

I pad all my shows 5 minutes before and after. But looking at my tuners, I have some that are recording back to back shows on different channels on the same tuner. So how does it pad?

I have plenty of tuners, 6 HDHR and 3 Analog. 3 of the HDHR tuners are not even being used. So I would have expected to see shows that overlap because of the padding on different channels to be on different tuners.

Any ideas why it does this? Or how to fix it.

TIA

[stanger89]

Originally Posted by mrrrl

I pad all my shows 5 minutes before and after. But looking at my tuners, I have some that are recording back to back shows on different channels on the same tuner. So how does it pad?

Well it shouldn't be recording back to back on different channels with the same tuner, are you sure those aren't on different tuners?

By default though, Sage will remove the padding on back to back favorites on the same channel, to disable that you can (in Detailed Setup->Advanced IIRC, might need the hidden extras enabled) change that functionality.

Be aware though that if you disable that, back to back favorites on the same channel will "interfere" and Sage will use multiple tuners for those, so it can cause you to run out of tuners fast(er).

[mrrrl]

Attached is an example, both shows are padded 5 minutes both ends.

[stanger89]

That seems bugish...

[Patrick25]

I used to get that problem when I had remove padding from back to back on the same channel. It would occasionally remove padding between shows on different channels. I've disabled that option and that fixed the problem. But I do run out of tuners every now and then but nothing too major.

[Opus4]

What version of SageTV are you using, and are you using the default STV?

Look at the recording schedule in the default STV and double check the padding setting for those Favorites.

- Andy

[mrrrl]

The client on the server uses the stock STV. I checked the padding on these 4 shows and they are set to 5 minutes both sides.

[Opus4]

I don't see a problem at all -- I think it only looks strange if you don't look at the full schedule.

If you only showed the schedule for a single tuner as in your previous post, then you don't see the full picture and it looks like a problem. You can get a better view of all the tuners by configuring that menu to show more tuner columns.

You have 4 shows recording back to back on 2 channels. The padding is being removed from each pair on the same channel. So, all four shows get recorded. If you want to keep the padding, then you have to change the setting in Detailed Setup -> Customize -> Remove padding on back to back Favorites on the same channel. But, as mentioned above, you may run into conflicts if you don't have enough tuners to handle all the padded recordings.

What seems to look strange to you is the fact that each tuner switches channels to record the 2nd pair of shows. But, you are ending up with the same result as if the shows on the same channel record on the same tuner.

- Andy

[mrrrl]

The problem is in the picture I sent is that the show Bones is on channel 13 from 7 to 8 pm and the next show (Grey's) is on channel 4 from 8 to 10 pm. All this is under one tuner so no padding is done between the shows. So i don't understand how padding is suppose to work. I have 2 other tuners that are not recording anything during that time frame. I would have thought that one tuner would have recorded Bones with 5 minute padding both ends and the other tuner would record Grey's with 5 minutes padding on both ends.

So I am really confused on how this padding is suppose to work.

[GKusnick]

As Andy explained, first it removed the padding on back-to-back favorites on the same channel, without reference to tuners. Since you had two pairs of such favorites (FlashForward and Grey's on ABC, Bones and Fringe on Fox), padding was removed on all four shows.

Then, after the padding had been removed, the shows were assigned to tuners, and it just so happens that it split the pairs up across different tuners. But so what? If they'd happened to land on the same tuner, you'd still have the same result, i.e. padding removed on back-to-back favorites on the same channel.

If you disabled that option to remove padding on back-to-back favorites, then all four shows would keep their padding, and it would take four tuners to record them all.

[mrrrl]

OK I get removing the padding on shows that are being recorded back to back on the same tuners. That makes some sense. But then it should not remove the front end padding on the first show and the back end padding on the other show.

But to remove the padding and then assign them to different tuners does not. That defeats the purpose of padding.

[stanger89]

Originally Posted by mrrrl

But to remove the padding and then assign them to different tuners does not. That defeats the purpose of padding.

Again, there's an option you can use to disable that functionality.

By Default Sage removes padding on back to back favorites. 99% of the time (every time I've seen it) it uses the same tuner for the two shows on the same channel. It appears you've hit a weird quirk of the scheduling logic that with tow pairs of shows back to back, on two channels they got swapped.

But it really doesn't matter the result is the same as if the shows were recorded back to back on the same tuner, the padding is removed either way.

To get around that, disable the remove padding on back to back favorites option.

[GKusnick]

The purpose of removing padding is to minimize the number of tuners needed. Once that's done, it doesn't matter whether shows on the same channel get assigned to the same tuner. The result is the same regardless of which tuners it uses.

What you seem to be saying is that in your example, you would have been happy if Bones and Fringe had recorded on the same tuner, with padding removed. But because they recorded on different tuners (with padding removed), that's somehow wrong. I fail to see any practical difference, since padding was removed in both cases.

Or maybe what you're really wishing for is an option that says: remove padding on back-to-back favorites only if needed to avoid running out of tuners. That might be a reasonable feature request, but even so it still doesn't matter which tuners get used for which shows. Either you have enough tuners or you don't, and making a special effort to schedule shows from the same channel on the same tuner won't change the total number of tuners needed.

[mrrrl]

I understand about the option to disable the padding and I will use it. But as GKusnick stated that it removes the padding first without regard to the tuner that will ultimately be the one that does the recording and then assigns the tuner?

Would it not then make more since to keep these on the same tuner? I am sure that it can be programmed to look at this and make sure that it there are back to back programs to use the same tuner.

But I have this problem all the time.

[stanger89]

Originally Posted by mrrrl

Would it not then make more since to keep these on the same tuner?

Why? There's no difference between the two tuners.

I am sure that it can be programmed to look at this and make sure that it there are back to back programs to use the same tuner.

Sage looks at for airings that are on the same channel, and only removes padding on those that air back to back on the same channel. This "normally" means they'll be recorded on the same tuner. And that's usually what I see.

But in your situation there is zero functional difference whether the shows are recorded on the same particular tuner or swapped.

[mrrrl]

Not trying to get in an argument here but there is a functional difference. I lost the padding on all four shows. I had 2 tuners that were not recording anything that could have been used and retained the padding. Instead Sage deleted the padding and then swapped the recordings on different tuners. I would have thought that it would have been smart enough to leave the padding alone and use the extra 2 tuners.

FYI, I set the option to off and Sage is now using all but one of the tuners and leaving the padding intact. But by doing this I lose the ability to let Sage intelligently remove the padding if it runs out of tuners.

[Opus4]

Originally Posted by mrrrl

OK I get removing the padding on shows that are being recorded back to back on the same tuners.

It is not removing padding due to being on the same tuner; the padding between shows on the same channel is what is removed.

But then it should not remove the front end padding on the first show and the back end padding on the other show.

The start padding is not being removed. Look at the screen shot you posted -- it clearly shows at the top of the screen that the highlighted show has 5 minutes padding at the start of the show.

It is working properly.

- Andy

[mrrrl]

OK I see that it did not remove the padding on the front end. But why did it remove the end padding on one and the start padding on the other and then stick the shows, which were on different channels onto the same tuner when the system had 2 free tuners? This is not something that happens once in a blue moon at least for me. It happened quite often and was one reason I bought more HDHR tuners so I would have plenty of tuners. I actually have another HDHR tuner that I can add, so that will give me 8 total. So I should be OK with the option tuned off. But that means I am not using the tuners efficiently.

[stanger89]

Originally Posted by mrrrl

OK I see that it did not remove the padding on the front end. But why did it remove the end padding on one and the start padding on the other and then stick the shows, which were on different channels onto the same tuner when the system had 2 free tuners?

Because since they're on the same channel, you don't lose anything. As you note below, this allows "efficient" use of tuners. Since most people probably don't have an excess of tuners, this is the default behavior.

This is not something that happens once in a blue moon at least for me. It happened quite often and was one reason I bought more HDHR tuners so I would have plenty of tuners. I actually have another HDHR tuner that I can add, so that will give me 8 total. So I should be OK with the option tuned off. But that means I am not using the tuners efficiently.

This is exactly the purpose of the setting, so if you have enough tuners you can tell Sage to use tuners "less efficiently", and retain the padding.

[GKusnick]

Originally Posted by mrrrl

But by doing this I lose the ability to let Sage intelligently remove the padding if it runs out of tuners.

You never had that ability, because that feature does not exist. Sage does not count up your free tuners before deciding whether to remove padding. The condition under which it removes padding is just back-to-back favorites on the same channel. Period. Current tuner utilization does not enter into that decision.