SageTV Media Extender Brightness Control

[willemse]

Originally Posted by joe123

Here is some additonal information I found about MVP's which may help others:

"The european model of the mvp has a scart connector which can output composite/svideo and RGB. RGB looks about the same as my DVD player would output it while composite and svideo are darker and very saturated. Skin tones look very bad in composite and svideo modes."

Linky: http://www.shspvr.com/smf/index.php?...47845#msg47845

If you mean to say "European Scart is acceptable"? Scart RGB is in my experience bad as well and not acceptable

[briands]

Originally Posted by joe123

...........
Oh yes and to address your final point: They may not consider it deffective because they made consider these boxes CHEAP and with CHEAP solutions you get CHEAP images - you get what you pay for.

If you want better than the cheap solution, you could build a small, quiet client that will output SD resolution just fine. Since you have finally realized that you get what you pay for...

[Stuntman]

Oh for crying out loud.. when did these forums become a platform for "complaining", rather than cooperative suggestion and help?? It's one thing to discuss a problem, another to get hot and bothered about them.
These bugs are known now, and I'm sure people are working on them.. granted it would be nice to hear an official "We've got a handle on this..." type of thing, but perhaps they don't.. but from past experiences, I imagine they will find the problem and it will get fixed, and probably soon..

In the meantime.. I just turned up the brightness on my TV a smidge and it looks fine..

[MrApollinax]

So let's list the work arounds:

1. Adjust TV inputs
2. Adjust recording settings
3. Resample with another A/V device

Please feel free to add to this list.

[joe123]

Originally Posted by Stuntman

These bugs are known now, and I'm sure people are working on them.. granted it would be nice to hear an official "We've got a handle on this..." type of thing, but perhaps they don't.. but from past experiences, I imagine they will find the problem and it will get fixed, and probably soon...

They "SageTV" may NOT be able to provide a solution since the problem is not theirs, thus why I would not hold my breath for a solution when there is no solution to be had.

My only complain at this point in time is that there needs to be a Disclaimer about this problem that MANY are experiencing with MVP's. Nobody likes deceptions.

And yes, I am all for finding a solution if there is one available.

[wrwaugh]

I have read this therad and it seems to me that early on in the thread there were a few posts which reported no problems when used with LCD and Plasma tvs. Others had problems when hooked to "tube" tvs.

I don't know much about the process these different types of tvs use, but is it possible that the "tube" tvs required a 'full' signal to produce full picture while the new types use the signal differently?

Is anyone with an LCD or Plasma or projection TV having the darkness problem?

[blade]

Originally Posted by joe123

They "Hauppauge" may not consider it "defective" because they may have on purpose made it that way because of the bottom $line$. For example, the "fix" may have involved a more expensive solution (chip) but that solution would cost them $30 bucks more to incorporate and that may have persuaded Hauppauge to go with the cheaper solution in order to sell these units for $99.00 bucks in order to compete. I only say this because if the solution was easy or cheap, they would have done something by now. Again, this is a known reported problem since June of 2004 from owners with hard solid evidence to prove it.

Why am I harping on SageTV and not Hauppauge? Same reason that when I buy a Car and it is defective, I go back to the dealership and not the factory. I bought my unit from SageTV and not from Hauppauge. SageTV web site does not say anything about a potential problem with these units - nada. Look at how many poeple here are coming forward admitting that there is a problem with THEIR units. I don't know why, but people in general are afraid to speak up and simply tell the truth.

Does this make sense?

Oh yes and to address your final point: They may not consider it deffective because they made consider these boxes CHEAP and with CHEAP solutions you get CHEAP images - you get what you pay for.

Just because you consider a product defective doesn't mean the manufacturer does. A quality product doesn't mean a good product. Quality is when a product performs as it was designed to perform. You said it yourself, you get what you pay for. If Hauppauge designed the MVPs knowing there would be variations in the brightness level then they're performing as they were designed to.

If you purchase a $2 watch you're not going to find a disclaimer on the package stating that it may run up to x amount of minutes fast or slow per year, even though that is something that the company knows is going to happen nor is the product considered defective unless it exceeds the amount of variation designated in the spec sheet.

I'm not saying the units aren't defective. I'm just saying blaming Sage for something Hauppauge designed and has been selling for years now seems a little foolish to me.

You're never going to capture your shows perfectly to begin with. The color, brightness, and contrast can vary greatly from station to station. For example I get 2 NBC's and USA all three of which air Law&Order SVU. I can record the same episode from all 3 stations and each one looks completely different. Chances are your video card in your computer isn't displaying the video 100% accurately. Then of course you're TV probably isn't either unless you've done a lot of tweaking or had it professionally calibrated.

Yes, it would be great if all of the MVPs rendered the picture more accurately and I hope a fix can be found. My point is, saying the units are completely unusable because you can't adjust the settings without losing video quality isn't really true considering it's practically impossible to get a 100% accurate capture and playback in the first place especially with SDTV.

My suggestion would be to calibrate your capture cards if you haven't already. I had to increase the contrast on my PVR-500's by 20% to get close to the proper range. Of course it's not 100% accurate because each show and station varies.

You could even set it a little bit high on the capture card and lower it a tiny bit on the TV the PC client uses, or lower it in the decoder settings so that it doesn't affect the desktop settings. This way the TV with the MVP wouldn't need to be boosted by quite as much. I've found on my TV's small changes to the settings aren't too bad on the quality. Maybe by splitting the difference a little between clients you wouldn't lose quite as much quality.

If you really hate Sage as much as your posts seem to indicate and you think they're being "deceptive" then simply use another product.

[joe123]

Originally Posted by blade

If you really hate Sage as much as your posts seem to indicate and you think they're being "deceptive" then simply use another product.

I dont hate Sage, I think they have a fine product. You are confusing frustration with hate.

I originally started out thinking that it was just me (and a few others) having this problem. Then more and more people came forward (see the posts) also acknowledging that they too were having this problem.

Then I start researching around and fond others (a LOT more) with the same problem, some going back to June of 2004 saying the same thing about the MVP. So I got very frustrated when I saw people here saying that this was a new "discovery".

If it clears the air, I think that SageTV software solution overall is very nice.

I personally think that Hauppauge knows that they have a problem with the MVP's but they wont admit to it (I already explained why).

I also think that SageTV should put some kind of a disclaimer for potential buyers of SageTV media extenders given the amount of users having this problem.

I am after the TRUTH and I am for HONEST communication - you make take that as me being negative or simply complaining. So hopefully, this clears the air as to where I stand.

[gplasky]

Originally Posted by joe123

I originally started out thinking that it was just me (and a few others) having this problem. Then more and more people came forward (see the posts) also acknowledging that they too were having this problem.

7 people in this thread-that includes the ones that have adjusted their picture in one fashion or another.

Originally Posted by joe123

Then I start researching around and fond others (a LOT more) with the same problem, some going back to June of 2004 saying the same thing about the MVP. So I got very frustrated when I saw people here saying that this was a new "discovery".

Another 5 or 6 in those 2 threads say they have the problem.

Originally Posted by joe123

I also think that SageTV should put some kind of a disclaimer for potential buyers of SageTV media extenders given the amount of users having this problem.

For all 7 of these users? They are probably more but I just don't get the same impression as you of these great number of people with bad pictures from their MVPs. And if there are I guess most of them just turned up the brightness on their TVs.
And a disclaimer....like what? If you purchase this product you may or may not have a picture a little darker than you may like. You may or may not make adjustments to the recording or your TV that will correct the issue.

I don't think the sky is falling and I think Sage is handling the situation properly.

[blade]

Originally Posted by joe123

I am after the TRUTH and I am for HONEST communication - you make take that as me being negative or simply complaining. So hopefully, this clears the air as to where I stand.

I'm all for the truth I just like to see people do a little research before making numerous accusations and claims.

As for the number of people actually having problems.... those who are will be quick to post and complain which is understandable; however, those that aren't having trouble will be much less likely to post that everything works perfectly. So trying to determine the % of people who have the problem will always be reported as far higher than it actually is.

Also just because the media extender output is darker than live TV doesn't mean that the extender is outputting darker. As I said before, the default settings of my capture cards were 20% lower in contrast than they should have been and were also a little lower in brightness. It's possible that some of the people simply switched between their TV and MVP as you suggested and saw the picture was darker and assumed they had the problem, when in fact their capture cards may just be miscalibrated.

I understand you're just trying to get to the bottom of things, but it seems like you've made a lot of assumptions by looking at a very limited amount of information.

[joe123]

Originally Posted by blade

I understand you're just trying to get to the bottom of things, but it seems like you've made a lot of assumptions by looking at a very limited amount of information.

Ok, fair enough. I am going to play with the tuner setting to see if helps - you make a lot of sense.

Also, lets see if more owners of MVP's also notice their boxes being darker than normal (via whatever the reason is) and come forward. It may be just the "few" of us as you say. I dought it, but let's see.

[gplasky]

Maybe try setting up a poll and get a little better idea of the number of users with the issue.

Gerry

[mayamaniac]

I have 2 MVPs. Before SageTV started supporting the MVP officially, I was using Matt's MVP Client plugin. And through that plugin, the picture quality always look dark, and so is the UI. I compensate the darkness by increasing the brightness and contrast on the TV.

When SageTV 4.14 came out, I installed it and enabled the MVP support. The first thing I noticed is the picture quality is MUCH brighter than the Matt's MVP Client plugin. In fact, it looks normal now compare to regular TV. I have a standard tube TV.

As for recording quality, if you set it as DVD standard play in SageTV, then picture quality from the MVP should be on par with regular TV, otherwise, you'll see compression artifacts at lower settings. This is the same with Tivo.

The coaxial cable that the cable companies use are the best. Make sure you use something as good when running it to your PC. The cheap cables will cause all kinds of picture quality issues. Usually, but not always, the gold plated ones are good quality.

joe123, not many people have the darkness problems. You might have a defected MVP. Why don't you just send the MVP back to SageTV and ask for a replacement? I haven't checked, but doesn't SageTV have some sort of return policy for the hardware they sell?

[mc2wheels]

I only read these forums once in a while, but I have to say I was shocked when I saw this thread. I have two MVPs, both hooked to small tvs, and the signal through the MVP is very similar to the normal cable signal. I notice no loss in brightness. I bought both of my mvps from radio shack before the Sage Extender was out. I think the picture is better than with my 6600GT. That said, I am only using SDTV not HD. I was looking into building a whole house system for my father using MVPs, but I wonder if I will encounter this problem. Has anyone tried to call the manufacturer to see what they say about the issue?

Edit after reading whole thread and laughing a little but mainly getting annoyed:
Joe, can't we all just get along? Seriously, I've read this whole thread now, and you are the kind of customer that makes me never want to open a retail store. What is it that you want sage to do? If they implement a patch, it is likely to break my setup because I do not have the problem. So would a disclaimer really make you happy? I doubt it. Seriously, why don't you just send the things back? I would understand your anger if they refused to refund your money. Don't get me wrong -- I think it is a good thing that people know of this possible problem. But quite frankly, people have given you constructive work arounds, and honest reasons why you should not think this is a software issue, and your responses seem more and more childish. I can understand dissappointment, but you're just flaming at this point. Are you as young as you seem?

[joe123]

Originally Posted by mc2wheels

Joe, can't we all just get along?

Yes, I apologize for seeming annoying. I was very frustrated with the whole thing mainly becuase I thougth it was just me, then more users came forward reporting the same thing.

Last night, I did play around with increasing the brightness on my PVR-150 tunner and it did help the image on the TV quite a bit. The MediaMVP image is still not as good as regular TV, but the jury is still out since I have not played with all of the other settings.

I am also still concerned if the recordings will then be "too bright" if I choose to burn a movie to DVD later.

By the way, all in all, the entire SageTV program is very nice and I like it.

[maddog33]

I sent this email to Hauppauge last night...
--------------------
Hi all,

Seems like every few weeks an uproar is raised at various website user forums (SHSPVR.com, SageTV.com) concerning the dark ouput of MediaMVP's. This seems to be reaching a crescendo with the otherwise smooth MVP integration (for most of us) now available through SageTV.

Is there any chance Hauppauge is going to address this or even acknowledge it?

Although you can compensate for it to some degree using capture card brightness, it is less than an ideal solution - washed out contrast, etc.

thanks,
a somewhat frustrated (love them/hate them) owner of two MediaMVPs...

(...This is by no means an indictment of Hauppauge support staff. I've not tried to resolve this directly with Hauppauge before this email, but only have tried to resolve it through the user websites.
Those users do however seem frustrated with the lack of response from Hauppauge...)

best regards,
------------------------------
...and received this prompt reply this AM...
----------------
The issue of the dark image in some system configurations is actually known. We should be implementing a way to adjust the brightness/contrast and hue/saturation soon, but don't know when that will be available yet.

Regards,
-----------------------

No other info and I am assuming (but what do I know?) their only fix could be a band-aid via software which wouldn't help anyone on Sage, but it is obvious they are aware and are taking responsibility.

In the meantime, I will reiterate again - small systematic tweaks on the tuner side of things has given me performance almost as good as the original source.

best regards,
maddog33

[joe123]

Originally Posted by maddog33

...and received this prompt reply this AM...
----------------
The issue of the dark image in some system configurations is actually known. We should be implementing a way to adjust the brightness/contrast and hue/saturation soon, but don't know when that will be available yet.

Regards,
-----------------------

In the meantime, I will reiterate again - small systematic tweaks on the tuner side of things has given me performance almost as good as the original source.

best regards,
maddog33

Rabbies Dog , I mean, Mad dog - Thank you for posting their reply.

It is very refreshing to see that they are acknowleging the problem!
Since this problem was reported and well documented back in June of 2004 and here we are in 2006, I hope they can speed up just a tad whatever they are doing.

I have a question about your tweaking. Do the recordings look ok or too bright on other sources? Have you burned a movie to DVD and check to see if it looks ok or if it also shows bright or normal?

[blackbeltdbz]

I also emailed them a couple days ago and got the same reply... I just don't understand how they could have not noticed the problem before they put them into production and started selling them. On the positive side though I would like to say I think it will be great once the contrast/saturation is fixed. The picture seems very sharp.

Jeremy;

The issue of the dark image in some system configurations is actually
known.
We should be implementing a way to adjust the brightness/contrast and
hue/saturation soon, but don't know when that will be available yet.


James R. Muller
JamesM@hauppauge.com
Tech Support
Hauppauge Computer Works, Inc.
New York Headquarters

[blade]

I wouldn't count on a fix from them anytime soon. Unfortunately Hauppauge is notorious for having very poor support. Maybe they'll suprise me and actually do something for once.

[joe123]

Originally Posted by blade

I wouldn't count on a fix from them anytime soon. Unfortunately Hauppauge is notorious for having very poor support. Maybe they'll suprise me and actually do something for once.

Yes. Problem was diagnosed and reported back in June of 2004. I imagine that the manufacture knew about it way before then. Here we are in 2006 and they are saying that they are "working on it" - Got to give them credit for being funny.

If SageTV cannot find a software solution for this darkness problem with MVP's soon, they should put a disclaimer about the problem of the SageTV Media Extenders they are re-selling in my opinion.