What do you think of the upgrade policy?

[Goodspike]

I still don't understand the poll choices, but I did just vote with my wallet.

[Kev]

Originally Posted by blade

One question though. What does a company do when they provide support for a product such as the MVP, but other products such as routers, switches, onboard nics, etc... don't follow industry standards or work exactly work as they're supposed to and for whatever reason this causes the MVP not to function properly. The company then tries to modify their product to work with the other products that don't meet standards. Should the company be required to provide the work they put into a workaround to their users for free because other hardware wasn't up to snuff?

Then Sage shouldn't advertise that they support the MVP or any of those other products. It doesn't work correctly in V5 and it didn't from day one, and if you want it to you have to pay additional (even though it was advertised when I bought it originally). My issue isn't a compatabillity issue with routers or whatever else, it just doesn't work. I understand that software will have some bugs, but I expect it to do the basic things it is advertised to do... like play a complete song.

[rickgillyon]

After being told by Sage that they won't fix v5, did you make all of these arguments to them directly? If you feel this way, you need to tell them in detail and ask them for a detailed response to your complaints. Doing it here doesn't help you except to get it off your chest...

Ask for your complaint to be passed to a Director - that's what I'd do anyway. Well, actually, I'd just pay the $30, but if you feel strongly enough...

[blade]

Originally Posted by Kev

Then Sage shouldn't advertise that they support the MVP or any of those other products. It doesn't work correctly in V5 and it didn't from day one, and if you want it to you have to pay additional (even though it was advertised when I bought it originally). My issue isn't a compatabillity issue with routers or whatever else, it just doesn't work. I understand that software will have some bugs, but I expect it to do the basic things it is advertised to do... like play a complete song.

Like I said before I wasn't talking about your problem.

My point is a lot of other problems Sage gets blamed for isn't always the program's fault. Then people complain because they aren't getting "bug fixes".

Even if Sage gets every bug with the MVP worked out it is still not going to work properly with every router and switch and Sage has no way of testing it with every combination possible. So there will always be some people who think the software is "broken".

The PVR500 doesn't work properly with many Via chipsets. Some have patches that can fix the problem and others don't. Either way there will always be people who have problems with some combination of the two and blame Sage. There have been plenty of cases of exactly this on the forums.

If you read the forums you'll see a user has recently left Sage to go with a DVR solution due to all the problems they had. Now we find out they were using a VIA chipset and PVR500s, a combination known to have compatibility problems (not knocking them because they gave Sage a fair evaluation, but others in the past have blamed Sage and ditched the product). Personally I had a hard drive start to die on me yesterday. It was in my server, but had nothing Sage or OS related on it. The Sage service would peg out at 100%, it would crash on a regular basis and I was sure it was all due to v 6.0.12 because it didn't start until after I upgraded. Well I removed the drive and haven't had any problems since. There have been numerous occasions when Sage has been blamed when a drive was dying.

I'm simply saying if something doesn't function properly it doesn't always mean Sage is at fault. I know it's a bit off topic with what you guys are talking about, but everyone always blames Sage for practically every problem they experience and it just isn't always the case. Your case sounds like a legitimate complaint. I'm just saying when people have the attitude that if the product doesn't work flawlessly as advertised it is "broken" just isn't feasible with PVR software.

[Kev]

Blade, I hear you!
Rick,
I have responded to there V5 non-support email (10/17) to fix that bug and am waiting for a reply. I understand my whining on this forum won't help my issue, but at least it is somewhere others can read up on Sage support and people can take it into consideration before buying in. The initial purchase gets you started, after that expect to pay a regular ~$30 subscription if you want it to actually work as advertised.... That has been my short experience with Sage anyhow.

[blade]

Originally Posted by Kev

I understand my whining on this forum won't help my issue, but at least it is somewhere others can read up on Sage support and people can take it into consideration before buying in.

It can make you feel better as well. I don't know anyone in real life that knows anything about computers much less PVRs. When I'm frustrated with something there is no one to vent to in the real world that understands the frustration. It's nice to be able to vent to people who understand what you're going through.

[Necro]

Originally Posted by blade

One question though. What does a company do when they provide support for a product such as the MVP, but other products such as routers, switches, onboard nics, etc... don't follow industry standards or work exactly work as they're supposed to and for whatever reason this causes the MVP not to function properly. The company then tries to modify their product to work with the other products that don't meet standards. Should the company be required to provide the work they put into a workaround to their users for free because other hardware wasn't up to snuff?

BTW I'm not saying this is the case with what you're talking about; however, not all of the problems that people have with the MVPs and Sage in general are Sage's fault. Also just because other wireless products work with a particular router doesn't mean that it doesn't vary from the standard. Unfortunately there aren't many good reviews on routers and switches, but from the few I've seen there can be huge differences between routers of the same brand.

(And to the inappropriate analogy comment) - have the user run the wireless MVP using the default software. If it works, it's Sage's fault that there's an error in Sage. If it doesn't, then it it isn't Sage's fault.

I used to do tech support on a college campus for both software, networking setup, etc. If the user won't be open to suggestions, etc., thats one thing - but if a person limits it down to definitely being Sage, and it still won't be fixed thats completely another.

Also, disclaimers are nice. Saying 'oh there are hundred of computer permutations' is nice, but many...MANY programs run completely fine on 'many many' computer permutations or work fine on the hardware they have listed as supported.

Either disclaim that it may not work with XYZ or don't make the claim that X is a feature.

[blade]

Originally Posted by Necro

(And to the inappropriate analogy comment) - have the user run the wireless MVP using the default software. If it works, it's Sage's fault that there's an error in Sage. If it doesn't, then it it isn't Sage's fault.

If you've done tech support as you say, then you should know this isn't a true test to determine what is to blame. For example Sage uses the MVP to do much more than the "default software" does. With any hardware or software it is very possible for the product to not be within spec yet still work. The developer may know their product doesn't perform as it should or is crippled in some capacity and intentionally write the "default software" so that it doesn't expose the problem. It is also possible that only some of the units suffer from the problem, which makes it even harder on 3rd party developers.

Someone else writes 3rd party code to take full advantage of the hardware's capabilities, but problems arise because the 3rd party app is attempting to use the broken part of the hardware, driver, protocol, etc.. that the manufacturer covered up or wasn't aware of when the device was released.

I'm not saying this is definitely the problem with the MVP, but you're greatly over simplifying the trouble shooting process.

[Kev]

Blade/Necro,
In the end if you sell software claiming it supports a piece of Hardware (and sell the hardware in your package)... I don't care where the problem is, it has to work. If there were limitations, well you should have found them before you decided to support the hardware.
Sage not supporting egregious errors/bugs/incompatibilities in version 5 then expecting a fee for version 6 is not a good way of doing business. Basically you are expecting to pay a support fee that wasn't part of your original purchase.

[Kev]

One more note, everybody is talking like the $30 update/"screw u support fee" is so small however it is 40% of the original purchase price of $80. 40% is a big number.

[jsonnabend]

Originally Posted by Kev

Blade/Necro,
I only use it through my MVP which is hooked into my whole house sound system, so I know it doesn't play complete songs then. I actually never tried directly on the Sage computer though, but from the Sage support reply it sounds like it may not work there either: "The issue in V5 was due to a limitation with the conversion technique we were using. It's been rearchitected for V6 so it doesn't have that issue so the fix won't be provided in a V5 update."

Either way, it should work and I shouldn't have to pay extra for a fix.

When a product doesn't perform as intended (e.g., as advertised), it's called breach of warranty. It's actionable in many (maybe most) states, regardless of any "waivers" in the contract of sale.

It's beyond me why a company would say, "Feature A didn't work as advertised because we designed it wrong. We've redesigned it in the new version, but you'll have to pay." Not only is it bad business, but it could wind them up in court if anyone decided to take that step.

- Jeff

[blade]

Originally Posted by Kev

Blade/Necro,
In the end if you sell software claiming it supports a piece of Hardware (and sell the hardware in your package)... I don't care where the problem is, it has to work. If there were limitations, well you should have found them before you decided to support the hardware.

I agree the hardware should work as advertised. What I'm saying is if you have other hardware or software that doesn't meet spec or follow industry standards why should the company be held responsible?

If a product is designed to work within the specs for say wireless routers and another company who makes a router deviates from spec how in the world could Sage have control over that? Also to say they should test their product with every piece of hardware and software on the market (which is impossible anyway) is ridiculous.

If a few of the MVPs aren't built to within spec I'd blame Hauppauge, if a large number aren't then IMO Sage would have more responsibility because catching it should have been easier.

Like I said before I'm not saying any of this has anything to do with your problem. Just that saying Sage is always to blame if something doesn't work right seems foolish.

[blade]

Originally Posted by jsonnabend

When a product doesn't perform as intended (e.g., as advertised), it's called breach of warranty. It's actionable in many (maybe most) states, regardless of any "waivers" in the contract of sale.

It's beyond me why a company would say, "Feature A didn't work as advertised because we designed it wrong. We've redesigned it in the new version, but you'll have to pay." Not only is it bad business, but it could wind them up in court if anyone decided to take that step.

- Jeff

Like I've said before, I'm not debating Kevs problem. I agree it should work as advertised. What I disagree with is the general attitude that if something doesn't work properly for someone that Sage is to blame regardless of what piece of hardware or software is causing the problem. A DIY PVR isn't a stand alone product so I don't see how anyone could think that only the Software manufacturer should be to blame if their system doesn't work properly.

[rickgillyon]

Originally Posted by Kev

"screw u support fee"

Is that really neccessary? Perhaps you should check out the poll at the head of this thread. That will give you more of an idea of how many people think they've been "screwed".

[silkshadow]

I voted but now I think I shouldn't have. I was just in a bit of shock seeing that now I was going to be charged for an upgrade. The thing is, I'd pay what I originally paid for all my Sage licenses as an upgrade fee if Sage actualy delivered on what has been asked for forever. Which is a complete music system and a fully featured media center. Previous version didn't even play or work right with some formats let alone have any advanced features.

So I should've withheld voting till I actually tried the new version. But, reading over posts, it looks like Sage did not deliver on these things but just made minor improvements (some of which seem to annoy some people but isn't that always the case). Of course, I will have to see for myself. When I can stop using Meedio and J River and have Sage be a real media center program rather than just a PVR addon (a great PVR addon to be sure), then I'd feel an upgrade fee, of even the original purchase price, is worthwile.