How I stopped VMR9 stuttering (including 1080i) and solved all my sound issues.

[Opus4]

Originally Posted by OttoNP

in WMP playback is smooth no matter what the above settings are...

BTW: my (limited) understanding is that WMP isn't using VMR9 nor FSE, so this comparison wouldn't say much about the SageTV results. I think it might be more comparable to setting SageTV's renderer to Default, but it may still be using the 3D pipeline differently.

- Andy

[OttoNP]

Originally Posted by Opus4

BTW: my (limited) understanding is that WMP isn't using VMR9 nor FSE, so this comparison wouldn't say much about the SageTV results. I think it might be more comparable to setting SageTV's renderer to Default, but it may still be using the 3D pipeline differently.

- Andy

that would make sense since overlay is the closest to WMP playback, almost good enough. I really like VMR9 though. I've been connecting to the VMR9 filter on graphedit (I think), it does default to a different thing.

I'm starting to think the 7300GT card just isn't enough, i got it when i was only concerend with SD and found a good deal. It seems to score pretty low on most of the tests at tom's hardware -

http://www23.tomshardware.com/graphics.html

but i'm not sure which of these tests (if any) would be a good comparison for sage tv performance, any thoughts on that?

I'm thinking the ECGA 7600GT around $129 or possibly the EVGA 7900 GS KO around $179.

I'm trying to put out 1080p to a Sony via dvi to hdmi...

[garyellis]

Just my 2 cents...

Thanks to this thread I upgraded my video card from a 6200TC to a 6600GT OC. I got the new card today. What a huge difference. Old way had constant stuttering on HD and the SD video was good, but sometimes a little dull. New way, no stuttering at all in HD and the SD and HD are very bright with very good color and definition..(did I mention - no stuttering)

With the old card when I played any HD program, the CPU went to 100%. With the new card with HD, the CPU goes to only about 25%.

I have all the normal stuff VRE, VMR9, smart, etc...

So, for now, I am a happy camper..

One more thing...I'm only playing the HD in 480I, I will be trying 1080I later.

Thanks for all the help on this thread...

Gary Ellis

[OttoNP]

I should probably wait until I perfect playback, but the latest i've found on my saga; since I think it may shed some light on the randomness of reported settings that solve stuttering:

There are some differences from channel to channel on what settings seem to work for me. I like to identify the single setting that made a difference and then change it back and forth enough to drive any other person watching crazy....just to make sure it is that setting...

anyhow, below is what I found with some recent airings, keeping in mind my goal is to stay with VMR9, overlay seems to solve issues as well, but picture seems worse (though i can adjust colors to remedy)

computer outputing 1080P via DVI to HDMI
AMD3200 with PNY 7300GT

CBS 1080I CSI:
using nvidia video and audio with VMR9, unwatchable stutter with automatic, smart, or video. Smooth good playback with film, this changes framerate to 30 fps instead of 60 fps, which must be taxing it since 1080i source is 30 FPS and it must somehow make it 60 with audio matching, makes sense when you think about it....I could get a marginal improvement by using nvidia video and AC3 filter audio, but could still pickup on stutter every now and then, needed film mode to completely eliminate.

the CW 720P and stereo sound (smallville and supernatural):
work fine with nvidia video and audio with VMR9, can use automatic, smart, video, and film as well as AC3 filter...

ABC 720P ugly betty
was fine with nvidia automatic, smart, video, or film, but would stutter with nvidia audio, needed to use AC3 filter

so my conclusions so far are:
for 1080i use nvidia film mode with either audio decoder

for 720P in stereo use nvidia automatic/smart/video/film with either audio decoder

for 720p in surround, use nvidia automatic/smart/video/film with ac3filter

This explains my inability to recreate stutter at will as well as all the varying advice on how to eliminate it, depends on station signal. It also explains why overlay works so well, it puts it in 30 fps (same as film in nvidia decoder) as well as probably some other things...hopes this helps!

Meanwhile, 7600GT card or the 7900GS? As well as most similar test from tom's hardware benchmark...

[PhillJones]

I tried overlay last night and was disappointed. I have a plasma display with non-square pixels and the firewire output of my cable box is a little underscanned so I use the zoom settings and set it a little larger than 100%. In overlay, this doesn't work and as I zoom up, the picture gets bigger but the visible area decreases, like it's being masked out.

So I'm stuck with nearly smooth VMR9 for the time being.

[mc2wheels]

I have a 2GHz Athlon XP, 1GB ram, SATA 150 drives, 7600GT AGP card, latest version of AC3 filter, and nVidia decoder 1.02.233 running on XP pro. I am running the current sage 6.1 RC.

I run with nVidia in VMR9 without FSE. I used to run with the nVidia codec set to "Automatic" which seemed slightly better than "smart". When I would watch 1080i channels on the HDHomerun, it was really stuttery -- distracting to the point that I wouldn't normally watch it. If I was recording anything else, it was unwatchable. I would often record on sage for backup, but I would watch live tv instead of sage for 1080i content.

I followed OttoNP's "film mode" suggestion, and the stuttering smoothed out considerably. It's not perfect, but it is so much better. I was watching the NCAA finals while recording HD on the other tuner on the HDHomerun, and it was a completely different experience. I still had pauses here and there, but it was a joy compared to my previous experience.

The previous suggestions in this thread -- with the codec priorities, FSE, etc. -- did not work for me. I left all but the FSE mode in place, but I still had major problems with 1080i (especially if anything else was recording). For those of you who are mostly stutter free without this change, this may be what you need. Try setting the mode to film!

Thanks, OttoNP. This magic bullet killed 95% of my 1080i stuttering.

[bcjenkins]

But what do you do when you change the channel? Do you have to edit the properties and set the mode to something different?

B

[OttoNP]

For me film mode is smooth with everything so you could leave it on that setting, but it is making everything 30 frames/sec, including 720p, which is broadcast at 60 frames/sec. Can I tell a difference? Not really, but it still bothers me. My current understanding is:

ABC = 720p broadcast at 60 frames/sec
FOX = 720p broadcast at 60 frames/sec
CBS = 1080i broadcast at 60 frames/sec interlaced, 30 frames/sec effective
NBC = 1080i broadcast at 60 frames/sec interlaced, 30 frames/sec effective
PBS = 1080i broadcast at 60 frames/sec interlaced, 30 frames/sec effective

It is also worth noting that on your TV 1080i is actually 29.97 FPS although they call it 1080i30...

My currently working settings are:
VMR9 Mode
nividia video decoder set to smart
FSE mode on
newest AC3 filter downloaded (filter packaged with sage would crash when DVDs are played)


In my mind it seems that the smart or automatic setting in nvidia video decoder should change to film like mode for 1080i sources, but with my settings everything is at 60 frames/sec.

The occasional blip you may see could be source since I see them every now and then watching live recordings.

This is all with my new 7600GT card, with my 7300GT card I had to run 1080i in film or overlay mode for barely acceptable performance...FSE did not seem to effect it. IMHO and through reading the forum you need at lease 400 MHZ for smooth HD playback, so I probably should have tried overclocking the 7300GT.

[CanadianEh]

Has anyone had any luck playing with the Inverse Telecine option? I turned this on last night to see if it would help with interlacing, and it might.. however it might be making my 1080i HD stutter again..... I need better shows on to tell.....

[blade]

Originally Posted by OttoNP

For me film mode is smooth with everything so you could leave it on that setting, but it is making everything 30 frames/sec, including 720p, which is broadcast at 60 frames/sec. Can I tell a difference? Not really, but it still bothers me. My current understanding is:

ABC = 720p broadcast at 60 frames/sec
FOX = 720p broadcast at 60 frames/sec
CBS = 1080i broadcast at 60 frames/sec interlaced, 30 frames/sec effective
NBC = 1080i broadcast at 60 frames/sec interlaced, 30 frames/sec effective
PBS = 1080i broadcast at 60 frames/sec interlaced, 30 frames/sec effective

It is also worth noting that on your TV 1080i is actually 29.97 FPS although they call it 1080i30...

Forcing film mode isn't really a good idea because it's not going to use the proper deinterlacing and PQ will suffer. If you use smart mode many of the 1080i shows will be played back at 24 fps. For me everything on CBS is always 60 fps, but many of the shows on CW and NBC end up playing back at 24 fps, which is very easy to do even on a 6200.

[OttoNP]

Originally Posted by blade

Forcing film mode isn't really a good idea because it's not going to use the proper deinterlacing and PQ will suffer. If you use smart mode many of the 1080i shows will be played back at 24 fps. For me everything on CBS is always 60 fps, but many of the shows on CW and NBC end up playing back at 24 fps, which is very easy to do even on a 6200.

Keep in mind that I use "smart" setting, i'm just saying that film mode is duplcating the frame rate of the broadcast. This is why I think this problem is so random, because of all the different native broadcasts. I've been trying to determine all the native broadcast formats, keeping in mind that the nvidia decoder does not always play them back in what they were broadcast in.

After searching the networks and wiki (see below), regardless of whatever they are showing, it seems that the 1080i broadcasts are all at 1080i30 which is 30 frames per second (29.97 actual) or 60 frames/sec for 720p. I may be incorrect, but i have found no information to lead me to think that the broadcast frame rate changes depending on the show. The nvidia decoder or others may alter the frame rate for your display depending on what it thinks it should be. Let me know if this is incorrect...


http://www.nbc.com/Footer/HDTV/
http://abc.go.com/site/hdtvfaq.html
http://www.cbs.com/info/hdtv/index.php
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1080i
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hdtv

[OttoNP]

Learning a little more, it seems that inverse telecline and maybe some other things nvidia drivers/decoder can do, take care of the way film at 24 fps is broadcast at 1080i30 (29.97 fps).

basically, they take the native film that is at 24fps, slow it down to 23.967 fps. so now, it will take 4/23.967=.167 sec for 4 frames of original film. This is the same as 5 frames at 29.97, 5/29.97-.167sec. So the 4 frames become 5 frames with some intertwining. An advanced decoder could possible undo this and return to original format


see:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Telecine#3:2_pulldown

for a great example

[eMajor]

I'm FINALLY stutter free! I've been paying close attention to this thread and followed just about every suggestion. I've always had the 720p stations playing perfectly, but was never able to get rid of the microstutter on the 1080i stations, CBS and PBS (NBC wasn't perfect, but it was the best of the group). It especially annoyed me trying to watch the NCAA finals last week and the Masters this weekend. I finally settled on just setting the Nvidia decoder to Film mode (which also stopped the stuttering), but the loss of PQ really bothered me.

So tonight, after rereading this thread AGAIN and seeing Mike (MeInMaui) was running stutter free with the Nvidia 84.21 driver, I decided to roll back from 93.71... and much to my surprise... the stuttering is gone.... completely! In disbelief, I went back and watched the basketball and golf, and again, they both played silky smooth. I'd seen previous mentions of rolling back to the 84.21 driver, but never believed it would make a difference. Well, I stand corrected.

I hope this info helps anyone else who's tried just about everything!

My specs:
AMD 64 3400+
MSI 7600GS
1080p via DVI-HDMI
1.5GB ram
Sage 6.1.8 (running in service mode)
VMR9 FSE
Nvidia Purevideo (Smart mode and Pixel Adaptive)
AC3 Filter
HDHomerun

[Ron]

Originally Posted by eMajor

So tonight, after rereading this thread AGAIN and seeing Mike (MeInMaui) was running stutter free with the Nvidia 84.21 driver, I decided to roll back from 93.71... and much to my surprise... the stuttering is gone.... completely! In disbelief, I went back and watched the basketball and golf, and again, they both played silky smooth. I'd seen previous mentions of rolling back to the 84.21 driver, but never believed it would make a difference. Well, I stand corrected.

I hope this info helps anyone else who's tried just about everything!

My specs:
AMD 64 3400+
MSI 7600GS
1080p via DVI-HDMI
1.5GB ram
Sage 6.1.8 (running in service mode)
VMR9 FSE
Nvidia Purevideo (Smart mode and Pixel Adaptive)
AC3 Filter
HDHomerun

I'm glad it works for you and MeinMaui, but not for me. I just went to roll back to 84.21 (swear I must have tried that some time ago, as well), and the stutter was back. My client specs are almost identical to yours. So it appears to be a "hit or miss" solution for various users. Some are finding a solution, and others aren't.

I'm just resigned to leaving my client in overlay, which produces the best video, stutter free.

[eMajor]

Ron, sorry to hear that... I also don't the drivers are completely to blame.

I should mention that if I played the same stuttering recordings using 93.71 under MCE 2005, the playback was always perfectly smooth. That was what gave me hope that it was possible without upgrading my system. It seems strange that MCE 2005 could play stutter free video with both 84.21 and 93.71, but Sage would only work stutter free with 84.21.

[astribli]

Has anyone run into problems with 6.1.8 using the latest nVidia drivers, or is it still better to leave them at 84.21 ?

[cychou]

Originally Posted by astribli

Has anyone run into problems with 6.1.8 using the latest nVidia drivers, or is it still better to leave them at 84.21 ?

I am running 6.1.8 with Nvidia 93.71 driver on an Geforce 6600 (AGP).
It is OK at the moment, but I will reserved my final judgement after further testing.



Vincent

[lobosrul]

Has anyone had any luck playing with the Inverse Telecine option? I turned this on last night to see if it would help with interlacing, and it might.. however it might be making my 1080i HD stutter again..... I need better shows on to tell.....

Where do you see this setting? Or do you mean setting purevideo to film mode?

Another thing that I noticed last fall, was that NFL games on FOX were at an actual 60fps, whereas all other 720p (that i tested) was at 59.94. Thats probably only important if your doing encoding.

[camus]

Originally Posted by astribli

Has anyone run into problems with 6.1.8 using the latest nVidia drivers, or is it still better to leave them at 84.21 ?

I don't have any problems with the latest version of both, other than the nvidia drivers are bit unstable.

[salsbst]

My problems are with a Radeon. My 6600GT has no problems (don't recall what ver. of driver I'm using).