How I stopped VMR9 stuttering (including 1080i) and solved all my sound issues.

[mrcandu]

Hello there,
I originally described the problem I was having with VMR9 microstutter in Ron's thread, and although the stuttering wasn't as severe as what others are describing, my post maybe of use as I finally seem to have solved my VMR9 microstutter issues using some of the methods described in this thread.
The plan was to get VMR9 using the NVIDIA Audio & Video decoders + the AC3 Filter as default on my setup, so everything would be set to default in Sage, including the video renderer, that way, if it works in graphedit, it's got to work in sage.
So..... I made the following changes in Direct Show Filter Manager:

AC3filter - priority 0xFFFF0000
NVIDIA Audio Decoder - priority 0xFFFF0000
NVIDIA Video Decoder- priority 0xFFFF0000
SageTV MPEG Splitter - priority 0xFFFF0000
Video Mixing Renderer 9 - priority 0xFFFF0000

Extreme merits I know, but with these new merits in place, rendering a SD mpeg in graphedit would produce the graph shown in the attached image.
I think the thing that made the major difference for me was setting the VMR9 filter merit, as without it doing that, Graphedit would just use the standard Video Renderer Filter.

So firing up Sage will now give me stutter free playback for both SD and as a consequence HD video, but the interesting thing is if I now change the Video Renderer from default to VMR9 in Sage ......... stutter comes back!?!?....... could this be a bug?
So at the moment I have no transparent GUI's, but I will live without that for the time being.

Another thing to note is that I have to use the "Automatic" setting in purevideo rather than "Smart" as some commercials and other bits do tend to cause stuttering of a different and more aggresive kind.

Hope this may be of help to some of you,
Cheers,
Mat.

[salsbst]

Originally Posted by GbrNole

roll on the HD media extenders - the sooner the better is all i can say.

i still have a feeling that more of these problems are caused by the sucky signals that the providers are sending out rather then sage being entirely responsible.

heck when my wife was watching american idol the other night i lost count of how many times the picture jumped between HD and ED. i don't mind those transitions at adverts and stuff but it's annoying as hell when it happens throughout the show.

It's not sucky signals alone. I have one client machine that doesn't suffer any of these problems and one that does. Same filters, same files. Also, when SageTV stutters and Graphedit doesn't, you've got a case of sucky signals not being the whole story.

[GollyJer]

Originally Posted by mrcandu

...but the interesting thing is if I now change the Video Renderer from default to VMR9 in Sage ......... stutter comes back!?!?....... could this be a bug?
So at the moment I have no transparent GUI's, but I will live without that for the time being.

It could be that Sage isn't actually using the default video renderer and is still using Overlay. I'll check this out during the weekend to see how it works. I'm assuming if you use Overlay you don't get any stuttering?

[GbrNole]

good point, salsbst.

**matt - you aren't using VMR9 buddy, hate to tell you that but you're in overlay.

also setting ac3filter and nvidia audio decoder with the same merit cancels each other out, you need to choose one or the other and last but not least most have found nvidia demux to be preferred over sage demux though i still haven't got around to trying that.

[GollyJer]

Originally Posted by GbrNole

good point, salsbst.

**matt - you aren't using VMR9 buddy, hate to tell you that but you're in overlay.

Cool, so I don't have to test this, but probably will anyway. And Matt, if you liked the look of the video with your setup (and don't care about the see through menus) then you should be all good with overlay.

Originally Posted by GbrNole

...nvidia demux to be preferred over sage demux though i still haven't got around to trying that.

It seems Matt is focused on SD playback, and as far as I can tell (no one else has confirmed) the Nvidia demux does not play back SD programming. It won't even render an SD file in GraphEdit.

[mrcandu]

Originally Posted by GbrNole

good point, salsbst.

**matt - you aren't using VMR9 buddy, hate to tell you that but you're in overlay.

also setting ac3filter and nvidia audio decoder with the same merit cancels each other out, you need to choose one or the other and last but not least most have found nvidia demux to be preferred over sage demux though i still haven't got around to trying that.

Hi there ..... and thanks for the reply guys.

GbrNole ........ Do you think I am still using overlay because of the non transparent gui's?. I am positive the actual video is being rendered in VMR9, firstly because that is the default renderer, and secondly I know how different the 2 look on my computer. If I actually switch to overlay from default in sage, I can see the difference..... deeper colours, but more pixelization etc. If I switch from default to VMR9, the overall look of the picture is exactly the same as default in quality.... excellent!, I just get transparent menu's with microstutter.

EDIT ...... Also I get the purevideo menu in my taskbar with VMR9 deinterlacing options, which should mean I am using VMR9?

Just to confirm, I am using SD with the sage demux as the nvidia demux will not work with my SD mpegs.

Thanks,
Mat.

[bbig119]

I've tried following directions in the first post, and it appears that HD is stutter free but SD plays without sound. Graph edit throws an error because there is no splitter/demux in the path. I have turned down/off Sage splitter and mpeg splitter but graph edit doesn't see or use the nividia demux.

I've tried turning nvidia demux up, and the others down as well as off with no visible effect, except that I do get nice playback of HD material in Sage. Still, I do need SD playback with sound as well. I'm uncertain if the splitter/demux issue is the cause of my sound problems or if it lies in settings in the AC3 filter.

Suggestions appreciated.

Thanks,

Bryan

[jkohn]

I find it interesting looking at you guys' graphs that when using the NVidia Demux you have to use the NVidia Audio Decoder. At that point I'm not sure what the point if of adding AC3Filter; it's just a redundant filter if it's after the NVidia Audio Decoder in the filter chain. I can't see how that could possibly help with any stuttering.

[astribli]

So, does anyone think any of this information will be passed along to Sage support and possibly included in an upcoming release (6.1.5) ?

[blade]

Originally Posted by mrcandu

EDIT ...... Also I get the purevideo menu in my taskbar with VMR9 deinterlacing options, which should mean I am using VMR9?

Setting default in Sage uses VMR7 not 9. Since you've played around with the merits I don't know what you're actually using. Open the Nvidia tray icon and under Decoder Format if it says video mixing, but doesn't mention VMR9 anywhere then you're using VMR7.

[mrcandu]

Originally Posted by blade

Setting default in Sage uses VMR7 not 9. Since you've played around with the merits I don't know what you're actually using. Open the Nvidia tray icon and under Decoder Format if it says video mixing, but doesn't mention VMR9 anywhere then you're using VMR7.

Blade ...... see image attached. Sure looks like VMR9 to me?
Thanks,
Mat.

[GbrNole]

mat. that radio button in the nvidia control panel is barely worth the button click.

if you don't have translucent menus then you're not using vmr9 in sage. i've just never truly seen sage play video back with vmr9 and not have translucent menus under any circumstance.

[mrcandu]

Originally Posted by GbrNole

mat. that radio button in the nvidia control panel is barely worth the button click..

That's quite possibly true, but the fact that it says "Video mixing (DirectX 9)" in the decoder format which is not dependant on which radio button I click, should mean i am using VMR9?

[blade]

Originally Posted by mrcandu

That's quite possibly true, but the fact that it says "Video mixing (DirectX 9)" in the decoder format which is not dependent on which radio button I click, should mean i am using VMR9?

On both my clients when it says Video Mixing (DirectX 9) it's using VMR9. When using VMR7 it just says Video Mixing. I guess it could still be using VMR7 and changing the merits may have just confused the Nvidia decoder somehow. I have no clue so I'm just speculating.

[bbig119]

This seems to be working for me, thank you for your help!!

I don't like FSE that much and am curious if upgrading my video card would solve these problems or not. If so, how much of an upgrade would I need?

Currently, I've got an nvidia 6600gt, on an athlon 64 3000 with 2gig ram.

I see so many posts about stuttering but very little on what kind of hardware you need to not have to worry about FSE and carefully tweaking settings.

[salsbst]

There's an overarching theme to this and other threads whereby those who have not seen SageTV stuttering unnecessarily claim that problems may be due to source (i.e. problems in the recording) or hardware and drivers involved in the playback.

I want to try to get away from that debate, because I feel I have evidence that that doesn't cover all of the cases I've seen in our systems.

Are there "sucky" sources? Yes. Are those "sucky" sources a part of the problem? Yes. Does that make them the only parts of the problem? No. When a semi-sucky source is perfectly rendered on our Client #1, but stutters mercilessly on Client #2, it's clear that there are ways to render sucky sources. So let's not get hung up on that or denigrate the problems of rendering just because recordings aren't all perfect.

Are there hardware deficiencies? Yes. Are those hardware deficiencies a part of some folks' problems? Yes. Does that make them the only parts of the problem? No. When someone can demonstrate VMR9 playback that doesn't stutter through GraphEdit, but does stutter in SageTV (with the same filters), I think one must conclude that SageTV is doing something to cause the stuttering.

So, that's where I am.

I think it would be helpful if those who are currently experiencing stuttering try to segregate the stuttering based on the above two implied criteria:

1) Does it happen on all of the machines in your environment? If so, perhaps the source is just unworkable.

2) Does it happen with the same filters in GraphEdit? If so, perhaps there is a filter in the chain that is to blame.

If neither of the above are true, you are in the same position I am. Certain that SageTV is doing something in its graph building or graph playing that is crippling it.

[bbig119]

Originally Posted by salsbst

There's an overarching theme to this and other threads whereby those who have not seen SageTV stuttering unnecessarily claim that problems may be due to source (i.e. problems in the recording) or hardware and drivers involved in the playback.

I want to try to get away from that debate, because I feel I have evidence that that doesn't cover all of the cases I've seen in our systems.

Are there "sucky" sources? Yes. Are those "sucky" sources a part of the problem? Yes. Does that make them the only parts of the problem? No. When a semi-sucky source is perfectly rendered on our Client #1, but stutters mercilessly on Client #2, it's clear that there are ways to render sucky sources. So let's not get hung up on that or denigrate the problems of rendering just because recordings aren't all perfect.

Are there hardware deficiencies? Yes. Are those hardware deficiencies a part of some folks' problems? Yes. Does that make them the only parts of the problem? No. When someone can demonstrate VMR9 playback that doesn't stutter through GraphEdit, but does stutter in SageTV (with the same filters), I think one must conclude that SageTV is doing something to cause the stuttering.

So, that's where I am.

I think it would be helpful if those who are currently experiencing stuttering try to segregate the stuttering based on the above two implied criteria:

1) Does it happen on all of the machines in your environment? If so, perhaps the source is just unworkable.

2) Does it happen with the same filters in GraphEdit? If so, perhaps there is a filter in the chain that is to blame.

If neither of the above are true, you are in the same position I am. Certain that SageTV is doing something in its graph building or graph playing that is crippling it.

You may well be right. Thing is, I've read and heard that a 6600gt is about the minimum to get by playing back hardware accelerated HD material. It seems many of us who have problems have 6600's or very similar. How about people who have newer vid cards?

If there is something with Sage that is contributing to stuttering, hopefully they can and will fix it. As an alternative, one that I can control, does a faster video card reduce-- eliminate these stutters that so many of us see?

I'm not looking to upgrade my video card just yet, but I'm curious how people with better video cards do with HD playback in Sage.

[millers_35]

I know I have a Nvidia 6200 agp card and it is not enough for 1080i material(way to jumpy). 720p is actually watchable with this card running vmr9 fse and nvidia decoders w/hard accel. Shows like 24 and lost I can watch fine but when it comes to heroes and las vegas forget about it. I have a 6800 Ultra I need to put back in sometime to see if that takes care of my problems.

Miller

[salsbst]

Originally Posted by bbig119

You may well be right. Thing is, I've read and heard that a 6600gt is about the minimum to get by playing back hardware accelerated HD material. It seems many of us who have problems have 6600's or very similar. How about people who have newer vid cards?

If there is something with Sage that is contributing to stuttering, hopefully they can and will fix it. As an alternative, one that I can control, does a faster video card reduce-- eliminate these stutters that so many of us see?

I'm not looking to upgrade my video card just yet, but I'm curious how people with better video cards do with HD playback in Sage.

I have no trouble with my 6600GT, actually. The machine that has stuttering problems is a laptop, so changing video cards isn't an option.

[PhillJones]

I have a 6600GT and only have micro-stutter when watching Dave Letterman. Maybe the guys at sage are more Leno kind of guys.

Aside from that, i've seen people upgrade their video cards from 6600GTs to newer cards and not fixed the problem so I would tentatively forward the hypothesis that if you have a 6600GT or higher, the grpahics card isn't the issue if you use VMR9 FSE.

If I don't use FSE, I get tearing, not stuttering. I think, but do not know that if you're graphics card is slightly underpowered, tearing is the first warning sign, not stuttering.