How I stopped VMR9 stuttering (including 1080i) and solved all my sound issues.

[Jesse]

Hi,

Oh boy. This is going to be a good bit of work.

I have never done a restore with True Image (been lucky ). How long does a restore take? Will it be faster than a nuke and pave? I dont have much on these machines besides sage.

I am guessing I ought to test a recording and capture logs on both clients since they are very different hardware wise.

I can get started by creating the images and making sure that the wife has all the important stuff set to record on the Directv DVR.

Jesse

[cummings66]

Do not just do the copy and backup of the sagetv folder, that does not undo changes elsewhere.

You must do a drive image, and that to be honest is much faster than doing a full install of the OS and the related programs. Minutes is possible depending on how your drives are setup.

I.e basic OS and Sage install only on C, data on other drives. That can be restored in minutes. If you have it all on C or lots of data on C it will take longer.

The copy and restore of the sage folder works as far as a basic backup of the important Sage data, but in my case I suspect something changed in the registry between versions and that was hinted at in email. No way to tell.

I hope it doesn't stutter for you, however I pray it does. If it does you may be the key to solving the issue for many of us. Just make sure you image that drive before you install V6, and make sure you get the logs from right now when it works playing back HD content. Enable debug logging. Exit SageTv and edit the properties file and turn it on, rerun sage and play back some of it. Save that log file and email it off with the log file where it acts up, if it acts up. Not everybody has or will have problems. To be honest, if you don't you'll love Ver 6 or 6.1.

[salsbst]

The only v5 vs. v6 test that I would consider to be truly valid would be one where a non-stuttering v5 instance is imaged (with something like Acronis True Image) prior to making any move to v6.

Unfortunately, I got complacent and didn't make such an image. I guess the fact that prior to v6, SageTV upgrades had been so painless and smooth, put me in a bit of a trance as far as imaging my systems.

An additional complication for me is that one of the machines in my Sage network is a domain controller, so imaging that one isn't possible, and b/c the v5->v6 move changed the client/server protocol, it was sort of an all-or-nothing event.

But, if you (I guess I'm talking about PhillJones here) have the ability to image a non-stuttering v5 installation and then move to v6 and find that it stutters, then replace the machines' system with the v5-based system image, and find that it reverts to non-stuttering, I would think that should be fairly conclusive.

Addendum: Obviously, I'm unhappy with the fact that SageTV LLC won't participate in this discussion, but I'm not intending to cast aspersions at any individuals. I understand that a business has to run as a business has to run. I just think that the business and its customers would benefit from its representatives chipping in to this discussion, absent any more formal way of allowing the community to work on the problem as a collaborative group (ahem: FogBugz http://www.fogcreek.com/FogBugz/ ).

(And BTW, I didn't read anything that suggested that Andy felt there was an impending action to close the forums.)

[salsbst]

Originally Posted by cummings66

I hope it [v6] doesn't stutter for you, however I pray it does.

I have to point out that this statement is funny, ironic, sad and true all at the same time. I'm at the point with this problem that I don't know whether to wish it would affect more people or not. Fundamentally, I wouldn't wish it on anyone, but it sure would be nice if the folks at SageTV could see it and diagnose it. Having sent log files and sample recordings long ago for this problem, I'm not quite sure what the hold up is. I'm experiencing problems that I reported (through the bug report system) now under 6.1.[whatever is current] that I first saw in a beta of 6.0. My bug reports included links to clips of files whose playback was broken by the v6 upgrade, and whose playback began to stutter in the v6 upgrade. I'm really miffed that nothing has been done, because it seems pretty clear to me that the sample files must not have gone into the unit testing algorithm, or alternatively, that SageTV has made an internal conclusion that the samples were invalid. Whatever the case, the company needs to demonstrate some willingness (dare I say eagerness) to solve the problem beyond protestations in this and other threads that it wants to solve it.

I'm happy to resubmit samples of files that stutter on one machine and not the other, and to resubmit log files associated, if someone will just signal that such submissions will actually be examined, and that I will receive real feedback on those submissions. Until such time, I'm prepared to continue discussing the problem with those folks on the forum who are also demonstrating a real interest in the problem.

[astribli]

Originally Posted by millers_35

I know I have a Nvidia 6200 agp card and it is not enough for 1080i material(way to jumpy). 720p is actually watchable with this card running vmr9 fse and nvidia decoders w/hard accel. Shows like 24 and lost I can watch fine but when it comes to heroes and las vegas forget about it. I have a 6800 Ultra I need to put back in sometime to see if that takes care of my problems.

Miller

I have an nVidia 6200 AGP w/256 MB and it works just fine, using Overlay. VMR9 and FSE will cause 100% cpu lockup. Haven't tried the changes here, yet, but will.

So to confirm, a 6200 will play 1080i and 720p just fine on all the local Los Angeles ATSC stations (over the air). If your 6600 doesn't, then it is something else. And, when watching a HD show while recording antoher HD show, cpu (Sempron 3100) runs around 25%. I'll take that.

[astribli]

Originally Posted by Jesse

Hi,

Oh boy. This is going to be a good bit of work.

I have never done a restore with True Image (been lucky ). How long does a restore take? Will it be faster than a nuke and pave? I dont have much on these machines besides sage.

I am guessing I ought to test a recording and capture logs on both clients since they are very different hardware wise.

I can get started by creating the images and making sure that the wife has all the important stuff set to record on the Directv DVR.

Jesse

True Image Restores are generally very quick (10 minutes for 10 GB, depending on hardware of course).

Make sure you don't change any video drivers or anything else. The only way I have it all working (6.0.19) is using Overlay, nVidia 84.21 drivers - not the latest 93.71, and Windows is only patched up to SP2. If I let Windows update itself to latest, it will stutter. If i put in the 93.71 drivers, it will stutter, in Sage. Plays just fine in the app that came with the Pinnacle HDTV Pro USB stick using VMR9 and whatever. Problem just occurs within Sage.

[PhillJones]

Originally Posted by astribli

True Image Restores are generally very quick (10 minutes for 10 GB, depending on hardware of course).

Make sure you don't change any video drivers or anything else. The only way I have it all working (6.0.19) is using Overlay, nVidia 84.21 drivers - not the latest 93.71, and Windows is only patched up to SP2. If I let Windows update itself to latest, it will stutter. If i put in the 93.71 drivers, it will stutter, in Sage. Plays just fine in the app that came with the Pinnacle HDTV Pro USB stick using VMR9 and whatever. Problem just occurs within Sage.

Have you sent them your log files? What did they say? I'm sure they'd be interested to see the difference between a stuttery and non-stuttery log file when you change only one thing.

[Jesse]

Hi,

I will have to get a couple more copies of True Image and do some more planning before I can test and upgrade etc.

astribli,

I use VMR9/FSE and 93.xx drivers on both my clients without a problem. I cannot get smooth playback without VMR9/FSE. I do have the client using component set to 720P in the nvidia control panel. It may now do 1080i since I upgraded to the 7600GT, I just havent felt the need to fool with it. We get smooth playback of 24 and Las Vegas on both clients.

Jesse

[bbig119]

Originally Posted by astribli

I have an nVidia 6200 AGP w/256 MB and it works just fine, using Overlay. VMR9 and FSE will cause 100% cpu lockup. Haven't tried the changes here, yet, but will.

So to confirm, a 6200 will play 1080i and 720p just fine on all the local Los Angeles ATSC stations (over the air). If your 6600 doesn't, then it is something else. And, when watching a HD show while recording antoher HD show, cpu (Sempron 3100) runs around 25%. I'll take that.

I was able to get smooth playback without having to worry about drivers that much with my 6600GT using overlay. Never got smooth playback with VMR9 until I followed instructions posted at beginning of the thread. For those with 6600s, I advise you to try older drivers( march 06) if I recall. The newer drivers don't have any hardware benefit unless you have a newer card anyway.

I am under the impression that getting good playback of material using overlay with a 6200 or 6600 isn't the issue here. Although I'm sure a good many people are having problems with this. I've been under the assumption that VMR9 yields superior video quality but getting smooth playback has been a serious issue in sage for people with 6600's, and many others with faster and slower cards alike. I really hope that overlay is a safe option for most of us out there.

[cummings66]

Originally Posted by bbig119

I am under the impression that getting good playback of material using overlay with a 6200 or 6600 isn't the issue here. Although I'm sure a good many people are having problems with this. I've been under the assumption that VMR9 yields superior video quality but

You are correct, it's the VMR playback that has problems and not overlay for most of us. I know for a fact that I can use any version nvidia driver and an up to date OS and get absolutely smooth overlay playback, but that's not the point. The point is VMR9 is what you need and want if you're serious about video and that's why we're trying to solve the issue here publicly for all to benefit from. IMO Overlay is not the proper solution to stuttering, a fixed VMR9 playback is what we're trying to obtain. Overlay is at best a temporary solution until the VMR9 bug is fixed. To be honest I'd rather watch SD rather than HD in overlay.

To be honest my stuttering is much better now, I won't say it's as smooth as overlay under all conditions but it is good enough now that it doesn't drive me batty.

For what it's worth I've got nvidia in my rendering chain and it seems to work fine for the most part. 6.1.4 seemed to help some more in that regards, however I'm not confident that it's a completely fixed issue so I won't be sending an email to them saying it's fixed. I've been caught before where I thought it was fixed and really wasn't as the next reboot proved. Time will tell.

[White94Cobra]

Originally Posted by mattdcknsn

Thanks GollyJer, really good how to. I have one problem though. I cant for the life of me get Nvidia Transport Demux to come up during the render. I have set it to the max value and decreased the Sage demux one to the lowest, but every time it comes up with a new demux thingy.

Eventually I got an error that Graphedit couldnt render the video. I repaired it and got it working again with Sage demux. But am back in the same spot as before. I reinstalled nvidia purevideo and sage to get it back to the base. Any ideas as to why nvidia couldnt grab the file?

I'm having this same issue. To get the Nvidia Transport Demux to come up, I kept resetting filters to 00000000 and rebooting until I finally got an error that Graphedit couldn't render the video. I could get Nvidia Transport to come up when I played a .ts file, but not an HD .mpg file. Resetting all of the filters back to their prior settings got rid of the "couldn't render video" error.

My wife is now asking why we don't just move back to v5. Sage ran for months with no problems back then. Now I'm lucky to have it running for more than a day with no issues. Without the HD-Tivo we'd be missing shows left and right.

[mc2wheels]

I can not get the nvidia demux either. I lowered the priority of all other demuxers and now the graph won't render.

I then tried reinstalling my nVidia codec, but that didn't work. Then I tried reverting to the 1.00.67 version of the nVidia codec, and then I got the graph to render.

I then followed the rest of the instructions, but I still have stutter. Actually, I think it is worse. So I am putting back the 1.02.223 version of the codec.

I have no way to compare if it worked in V5 or earlier. This is my first venture into HD.

So I have a 2Ghz Athlon XP, with a 7600GT, and 1 Gig of ram with brand new SATA drives -- not exactly latest technology, but certainly not aweful.

Here's an idea: Why doesn't Sage tell us what hardware has absolutely no problems rendering HD? Rather than us building systems and trying to guess if they are good enough. Presumably, they have systems that they test that have no problems with playback. Tell us what software and hardware is on those systems. There are certainly people with better systems than mine having the same problem. So they should just let us know what they use and is known to work.

[Jesse]

Hi,

Ok, I have got images of the c: drives from the server and both clients.

I set the first client to use the default stv, set debug to true and watched an episode of Las Vegas that was recorded in OTA HD. Playback was flawless other than one brief moment of pixelization (reception). Tomorrow I will watch the same episode on my other client and log it as well. Then I will make copies of my V5 sage folders and install V6.

It will probably be Tuesday before I can start watching the recordings again. Hopefully Wednesday it will all be done and logged. If I am lucky I wont need to roll back to V5. If you guys are lucky then I will. If that is the case then hopefully my logs will help solve the problem.

Question: I have java V6 on the clients and 1.4.2_11 on the server. Is sage V6 going to try and install the older version of java when I update? If so then can I just delete the older version in the control panel? I think for my before and after comparison to be valid I will need to use the same versions of java as I was with V5. Let me know.

Next Question: Should I install the latest V6 Release Candidate or the latest Official Release Version?


Jesse

[PhillJones]

good work Jesse.

I vote for the RC. I think people were experiencing problems with 6.1, not just 6.0.

The official release is still 6.0.

[bcjenkins]

I would concur, active development is in 6.1.

B

[Jesse]

Hi,

Yeah, I was thinking the latest RC as well. It would be nice to hear from Opus or Narflex on this. I would hate to have a problem with V6 and be told the logs did not help because I installed the "wrong" version.

Jesse

[Opus4]

As was said above, active developement is on v6.1. There have been lots of HD-related changes since v6.0, so testing v6.0 won't get you anywhere.

- Andy

[Jesse]

Hi,

Thanks for the confirmation Andy.

I will post results here.

Jesse

[salsbst]

Percentage-wise, from my completely informal understanding of how many people are having rendering trouble under v6/v6.1, I'm not sure what Jesse's experiment will yield. As he points out, it could go either way.

I want to thank you, Jesse, for volunteering to experiment so methodically. Good stuff.

I've been considering nuking and paving our troubled laptop and doing something similar, but the time isn't there for me right now. [Plus, our other main client just started to refuse to render *any* file in SageTV, so that will obviously become my top Sage priority.]

[PhillJones]

Originally Posted by salsbst

Percentage-wise, from my completely informal understanding of how many people are having rendering trouble under v6/v6.1, I'm not sure what Jesse's experiment will yield. As he points out, it could go either way.

I want to thank you, Jesse, for volunteering to experiment so methodically. Good stuff.

I've been considering nuking and paving our troubled laptop and doing something similar, but the time isn't there for me right now. [Plus, our other main client just started to refuse to render *any* file in SageTV, so that will obviously become my top Sage priority.]

Well the point of the exercise is that in the unfortunate case that Jesse experiences the same problems that many other people have. At least the sage developers can have an example of what's going wrong.