Never record a show + auto-channel ad

[neilbradley]

I'm a SageTV user (since version 3!) with SageTV, and 3 client licenses, and it's time for my quarterly "has SageTV fixed these two problems yet?" forum message:

1) NEVER Record a show - I have aggressive negative profiling turned on, and I've "thumbs down'd" shows like crazy, like "Paid programming", "Riches in real estate", "Drake & Josh", and "The Wonder Pets" but SageTV STILL RECORDS IT. Why isn't there a default, built-in-the-product way of doing this? My Tivo from 2002 has this feature! I generally like SageTV's intelligent recording picks and it has some good ones, but for the love of God or whatever deity you may worship, PLEASE ADD A WAY TO *NEVER* RECORD A SHOW! Wildcards would be best.

2) Auto-add channels - I have Dish Network 301 receivers that, when a new channel is added with SageTV and it tries to get a channel that I don't get, the receiver gets stuck in a "You don't get this channel" screen requiring me to run down to the garage and manually press up/down. The receiver is brain dead for doing so, but most of the time the channels getting added are just foreign language channels that I don't understand anyway or sports channels that I really don't care about. In fact, I can't think of a single newly added channel that I've ever wanted. Moved channels I can accept, but don't auto-add new channels! Or at least give me the option to NOT do so.

I've been tortured by these two problems for almost two years now, and it's getting to the point where I'm going to go to another DVR system, whatever it may be, to avoid it. We keep getting features added like watching YouTube, but basic functionality that other DVRs have had for years keep getting left out.

SageTV, will you PLEASE fix these two basic problems with SageTV? These should not be difficult things to ad, and I'm hoping people won't suggest bandaids to the product to make it work like it should.

[BobPhoenix]

I would like to see these as well. But I suggest that you send them as request directly to SageTV since this is a USER forum. Maybe if enough people request directly it they will add it to the next version. I'm going to do that myself but I doubt a single request will do anything.

[Fluffdaddy]

Originally Posted by neilbradley

1) NEVER Record a show - I have aggressive negative profiling turned on, and I've "thumbs down'd" shows like crazy, like "Paid programming", "Riches in real estate", "Drake & Josh", and "The Wonder Pets" but SageTV STILL RECORDS IT. Why isn't there a default, built-in-the-product way of doing this? My Tivo from 2002 has this feature! I generally like SageTV's intelligent recording picks
and it has some good ones, but for the love of God or whatever deity you may worship, PLEASE ADD A WAY TO *NEVER* RECORD A SHOW! Wildcards would be best.
.

From your mouth to Sage's management ears.

ie: My wife likes the "Law and order" an "CSI" shows. she watches one or two everyday......Fine. But I don't want IR to record every d@mn L&O n CSI every made. I have used aggressive negative profiling I have "thumbs down" L&O & CSI til my fingers hurt......But sage's IR still records it and EVERY crime show known to mankind.

Let my wife manually record her crime shows, but I need a way to make IR stop it's crime spree

I have Dishnet, Starchoice and OTA local TV for HD and That's a lot of L&O & CSI for IR to record.............And it does. I had to stop using IR because of it.

I would LOVE an IR NEVER to RECORD option.

edit to add: BobPhoenix I will take your advice and email my rant/feature request to sage's brass

[nielm]

Neilbradley: I guess you would consider the anti-favourite plugin which sets matching shows as 'don't like' a bandaid.

[GKusnick]

Originally Posted by neilbradley

The receiver is brain dead for doing so...

And that certainly merits a complaint to Dish as well as to Sage. Dish should be made aware that their equipment doesn't play nice with home automation systems.

Originally Posted by neilbradley

I've been tortured by these two problems for almost two years now...and I'm hoping people won't suggest bandaids to the product to make it work like it should.

Do I take this to mean that you would rather continue to be tortured than use the bandaids that exist? I understand wanting these features built in, but I don't understand not wanting to hear about alternatives that could make your life easier in the meantime.

[sainswor99]

Originally Posted by GKusnick

Do I take this to mean that you would rather continue to be tortured than use the bandaids that exist? I understand wanting these features built in, but I don't understand not wanting to hear about alternatives that could make your life easier in the meantime.

I took it to mean that the OP knew about alternatives, but wanted Sage to develop a solution rather than relying on unsupported (albeit effective) solutions.

[GKusnick]

He may know about them, but the fact that he's still suffering implies that he doesn't use them. Obviously that's his prerogative, and I'm not saying there's anything wrong with that, or that Sage shouldn't fix these issues. But as an author of third-party add-ons myself, I'm naturally curious as to why someone would rather endure torture than use them as a stopgap measure to relieve the pain while waiting for the Sage devs to act.

[Fluffdaddy]

I can only answer for myself. I mean no disrespect towards all of you add-on authors you do good work. Over the years I just prefer my sagetv software in stock form. But I don't "torture" myself over it, I just don't use IR any longer.

[sainswor99]

Originally Posted by GKusnick

He may know about them, but the fact that he's still suffering implies that he doesn't use them. Obviously that's his prerogative, and I'm not saying there's anything wrong with that, or that Sage shouldn't fix these issues. But as an author of third-party add-ons myself, I'm naturally curious as to why someone would rather endure torture than use them as a stopgap measure to relieve the pain while waiting for the Sage devs to act.

Probably because there's no clear pathway from a third-party development effort to an official adoption by SageTV; AFAICT, third-party tools don't ever become part of the core product. As long as users keep using them and don't complain about the lack of support by Sage, there's no incentive for Sage to implement the functionality proffered by said tools.

Customization is a double-edged sword; it offers SageTV users the ability to implement functionality not offered by the core product, but it also removes some of the consumer power over the official development path. If a customer wants a feature, he should request it from Sage, but as long as there are third-party implementations that provide the functionality, there's no end to the stopgap. ("Why bother with an official web management interface? Nielm's webserver works fine."; "Why change the interface? There's always SageMC.")

Obviously, I'm reading a lot into the OP's situation, because I feel like I can identify with him. I don't use a lot of the third-party add-ons because they don't fit my use-case (the webserver is my primary exception).

[neilbradley]

Okay, to summarize a few things:

1) I didn't know there were add ons until right after my post last night, and it doesn't negate the fact that DVRs should have a "never record" feature. All that I've encountered *DO* have this capability.

2) Yes, Dish is also responsible for making broken, PITA, receivers but there's nothing they're going to do about upgrading firmware on a 5 year old receiver. If it worked like Tivo, it would tell you that new channels have been added, and give you the option of not doing anything about it. Not sure why SageTV couldn't have this simple to implement feature as well.

3) I meant no disrespect to plugin authors. Many of the plugins are quite excellent and provide some great features and capabilities. My only frustration is with the lack of two basic features in the product that have been missing since day one.

[opy01]

I never use IR since 90% of the shows it sugests are nothing like my favorites and I would never watch them. I just choose certain shows that I really want to watch and either choose 1st runs and re-runs or just 1st runs.

I do hate having to go through and remove channels I dont want or new ones I dont get though. If new channels are added to the list in Sage they should not be selected to show in the guide unless you add them manualy.

As far as SageTV and additional functions, I bought SageTV for a DVR system only. I am quite excited about all the frickin awesome add-ons everyone had written for it. It does far more than any other system I have seen out there. I just wish they wouldnt break the weather maps when they do updates

Originally Posted by GKusnick

And that certainly merits a complaint to Dish as well as to Sage. Dish should be made aware that their equipment doesn't play nice with home automation systems.

And I have done that a couple of times this week. The idiots did a firmware update at 8:45PM and totaly screwed up one of my recordings at that time. The next day I find out that another show was recorded but all there was in the video was a nice Dish Network logo. Then today when it did the same thing I called them back and they said Dish now has a screen saver in the newer STB and when it is scheduled to record the screen saver would turn off. Let me tell you I was pissed to find out they changed my settings without my permission and screwed up 3 of my shows, 1 of which is not showing again for I dont know how long.

I finally had to program the OK button and the up and down buttons into my blaster settings so when I am not at home I can remote in and make sure there is no screen saver or if it goes to one of those stupid channels that I dont get I can change it since the only way to change that is to push the up or down buttons on the STB remote.

[wvpolekat]

I will second #1. #2 just doesn't impact me.

My particular Sage installation has an affinity for the news. I have marked over 300 newscasts "don't like", and have never watched the news, yet it still wants to record them at least twice a week.

I would also add "Never IR from a particular channel". I don't want to remove them from my channel list because I can't watch them at all then, but I don't want IR to record off them ever either.

I agree that this is a simple feature that would be a HUGE value add to IR. As you said, it does find some gems, but you have wade through a lot of junk to find them sometimes. My concern is what isn't it scheduling/recording because of these recordings. Am I missing something I may actually like?

[BobPhoenix]

Originally Posted by wvpolekat

I will second #1. #2 just doesn't impact me.

My particular Sage installation has an affinity for the news. I have marked over 300 newscasts "don't like", and have never watched the news, yet it still wants to record them at least twice a week.

I would also add "Never IR from a particular channel". I don't want to remove them from my channel list because I can't watch them at all then, but I don't want IR to record off them ever either.

I agree that this is a simple feature that would be a HUGE value add to IR. As you said, it does find some gems, but you have wade through a lot of junk to find them sometimes. My concern is what isn't it scheduling/recording because of these recordings. Am I missing something I may actually like?

I suggest you send Sage a feature request or this will likely never become an option. As had been stated elsewhere the developers do not read all the threads on the forum and may miss this thread. Also until enough people formally request it they will not think it will be of much use to the silent majority.

[GKusnick]

Originally Posted by sainswor99

Probably because there's no clear pathway from a third-party development effort to an official adoption by SageTV; AFAICT, third-party tools don't ever become part of the core product. As long as users keep using them and don't complain about the lack of support by Sage, there's no incentive for Sage to implement the functionality proffered by said tools.

Actually there's any number of features in the default STV that started out as third-party add-ons. I can also recall a few improvements in the core software that were stimultated by third-party workarounds.

And I never said he shouldn't complain about the lack of core support; I just pointed out that he doesn't have to suffer while he's complaining. The anti-favorites plugin already exists; the Sage devs know that it exists; therefore any hypothetical disincentive to implementing the corresponding core feature is already in full play. I don't see how refusing to use it on principle will make the case for a core change any stronger. Quite the opposite in fact, since the plugin's download count can reasonably be taken as a measure of interest in such a change. By not downloading it, you're effectively voting No on that feature. So you may as well enjoy the benefits of it while continuing to lobby for a core change.

I also think that for some features, a certain amount of trial-and-error will be needed to figure out what works and what doesn't. In such cases it's probably smart for the Sage devs to sit back and let third-party devs make the mistakes before cherry-picking the more successful approaches for inclusion in the core. But we won't know which are the successes and which are the mistakes if users decline to use them while holding out for the "real" fix from Sage.

[wvpolekat]

Anti-favorite has a pretty fundimental flaw in my opinion, and is the primary reason I won't use it.

It pollutes the watched/don't like database with what are effectively false positives or negatives.

Since none of us here know exactly how IR determines what to record, throwing tons of "don't likes" at it to make it not record something could in theory have a ripple effect. If it sees that you are effectivly marking a large percentage of the shows in the "comedy" category as "don't like" it may never IR anything comedy.

Same goes for watched, it could take you marking every episode of "Friends" as watched, it make take that as you liking that genre more than you do and all of a sudden you are getting all kinds of stuff related to that. The additional gotcha in that is that if you ever do decide you want it to record friends, you may not get any because they are all marked watched.

So, it makes for a black and white solution both actions having a possible unwanted ripple effect. If you know that going into it and are careful how you mark things, this may be just fine.

This is not meant to be negative about this plugin, it serves the purpose with the means available to us. So, in that aspect, it's wonderful. I just think that some basic rules in IR about things to just ignore and not record would be a much more elegant solution than anti-favorites.

I would also LOVE to see some kind of "influence tree" for suggestions. Something that would tell us some information about why it decided to record something. Not sure if that could be done without revealing too much of the IR decision making bits.

Again, this is just my thoughts on that plug in for this situation. I am sure it works wonderfully for others and my comments are in no way intended to be derogotory about it or the author/users.

[sainswor99]

Originally Posted by GKusnick

Actually there's any number of features in the default STV that started out as third-party add-ons. I can also recall a few improvements in the core software that were stimultated by third-party workarounds.

I'd be interested to know what those were, and how long it took for them to become fully supported.

Originally Posted by GKusnick

And I never said he shouldn't complain about the lack of core support; I just pointed out that he doesn't have to suffer while he's complaining. The anti-favorites plugin already exists; the Sage devs know that it exists; therefore any hypothetical disincentive to implementing the corresponding core feature is already in full play.

The feature request should be "I know the anti-favorites plugin works reasonably well, but when will you officially support it?".

Originally Posted by GKusnick

I don't see how refusing to use it on principle will make the case for a core change any stronger. Quite the opposite in fact, since the plugin's download count can reasonably be taken as a measure of interest in such a change. By not downloading it, you're effectively voting No on that feature. So you may as well enjoy the benefits of it while continuing to lobby for a core change.

A download count does indicate a measure of interest in the feature, but I don't know if it's any more or less valid than a simple request for the feature. And, while I agree that silent refusal to implement an unsupported feature is not an effective method of requesting change, an outspoken refusal to use the feature (IMO) can be much more powerful than a response of "I don't like this, but I'll keep using the patch written by someone else". I just happen to believe that telling Sage (or any other vendor) that "I want this feature, and I want it supported by you, or I'm going to buy a different product that does support this feature" is much more effective. Obviously, there can be a compromise; you can enjoy the third-party app AND be very vocal in your demand for a feature. I just don't find that as persuasive a bargaining tool.

Originally Posted by GKusnick

I also think that for some features, a certain amount of trial-and-error will be needed to figure out what works and what doesn't. In such cases it's probably smart for the Sage devs to sit back and let third-party devs make the mistakes before cherry-picking the more successful approaches for inclusion in the core. But we won't know which are the successes and which are the mistakes if users decline to use them while holding out for the "real" fix from Sage.

Point well made, and that's part of the double-edged blade I mentioned. But in a practical sense, does it matter? Unless the Sage devs implement the third-party code with only minor modification (and they may, but that raises some interesting licensing questions), they are essentially building the same feature from scratch. Any beta-testing done on those features is essentially rendered moot; all that remains is a sense of user demand (you can't really track usage, since some people may download something,try it, and then uninstall it). While I do agree that you have fleshed out the user specs for the feature, any code has probably been thrown away.

Stu

[gplasky]

Originally Posted by sainswor99

I'd be interested to know what those were, and how long it took for them to become fully supported.

Maybe not fully supported but the malore options are included in the core and enabled by the secret code. And that also has a couple of mlbdude customizations thrown in there.

If I'm not mistaken flachbar actually came up with a plugin that let you resume your dvd where it left off before the developers.

Gerry

[GKusnick]

Originally Posted by sainswor99

I'd be interested to know what those were, and how long it took for them to become fully supported.

One-touch filtering is recent example of a feature that was developed by a plugin dev (Nielm) during the V6 beta and was incorporated into the default STV in time for the final release.

Originally Posted by sainswor99

While I do agree that you have fleshed out the user specs for the feature, any code has probably been thrown away.

User specs are what I'm talking about. I'd argue that for things like fine-tuning IR, coming up with a workable UI design is much more than half the battle (since we all seem to agree that the current UI for IR is less than ideal). What I'm trying to say is that plugin devs are in a much better position to take risks with UI design than the Sage devs; if an experimental plugin fails the usability test, people are free not to use it, and the plugin dev can try another idea fairly quickly. Whereas the Sage UI must be usable in every release, since the releases themselves come fairly infrequently (compared to plugins). So even if no code gets reused, it's still a big win for the Sage devs to be able to know what sort of UI works and what doesn't before they start coding.

[GKusnick]

Originally Posted by wvpolekat

Anti-favorite has a pretty fundimental flaw in my opinion, and is the primary reason I won't use it.

It pollutes the watched/don't like database with what are effectively false positives or negatives.

I guess if I were designing a plugin for fine-tuning IR, I would not do it by fiddling watched/don't like flags in an attempt to steer IR toward or away from particular programs. Instead, I'd turn off the automatic recording portion of IR, and use the Intelligent Suggestions list (i.e. the things IR would have recorded if it were turned on) as input to some user-defined filter. The plugin could then schedule programs from that filtered list for manual recording when tuners are otherwise idle. So IR wouldn't be entirely out of the loop, but neither would it have final say on which of its suggestions get recorded; that would be determined by the filter.

And again, I think third-party devs are probably in a better position than the Sage devs to explore the design parameters of that sort of IR-filtering UI.

[sainswor99]

Originally Posted by GKusnick

And again, I think third-party devs are probably in a better position than the Sage devs to explore the design parameters of that sort of IR-filtering UI.

Unless the Sage developers have provided you with a great deal of information about how IR works (I don't know; never used Studio), I can't see how you can reasonably state that you are in a "better" position. Unless the code is open for exploration, you'd be constantly making assumptions about how the process works. Some of those assumptions may be pretty good, but they're still no match for a well-formed knowledge of how the application actually performs.

Again, that's all based on my assumption that the code is not provided in an open format; I could be totally wrong.