HD200 regularly drops frames on Bluray playback

[MrFusion]

Hi,

I've recently bought a few HD200s, and am loving them apart from one really annoying small problem.

I'm have an issue whereby the HD200 appears to drop a small number of frames very regularly (ie every second or so) when playing back bluray content (not evident on DVD rips). I guess you could call it a "stutter" or "microstutter" issue.

This is especially evident on scenes with horizontal panning.

So, during panning scenes, the experience is that every second there is a little 'tick' in the video where, for a fraction of a second, the scene is static and then jumps a couple of frames ahead to 'catch up'. There isn't any noticeable audio disruption.

Trying to show this in a forum post is a bit tricky, but it's like:

Timeslot/Frame due:       1  2  3  4  5  6  7  8  9  10  11  12
Frame actual:             1  2  3  4  5  6  6  6  9  10  11  12
Audio:                    1  2  3  4  5  6  7  8  9  10  11  12

Has anyone else noticed this?

I have the latest firmware (upgraded from stable to latest Beta last night without noticeable improvement).

I'm playing back from a SageTV server (latest version, windows 2003 server), via HDMI at 1080p (tried composite & lower resolutions, but this didn't seem to make any difference). Doesn't appear to be a network issue as I unplugged the LAN cable during playback, and movie continued (with same problem) for about three or four seconds (so good buffering). Also, playing the file back on a networked PC (playing same file from a network share on the same server, but not as Sage client) with MPClassic is smooth.

Haven't tried playing back from local drive yet, but will give it a go this weekend. Along with setting up SageTV client on the PC and trying to play back via the sage server software, and and and...

Just asking in case anyone else has seen the same (or can say, "no, absolutely, bluray panning on movie 'x' is absolutely silky smooth").

Or perhaps someone can suggest things to try -- eg turning on logging (how? what to look for?) / force a particular codec setting / etc???

Your help is appreciated!!

[Deacon Crusher]

see the thread titled success downgrading ... for similar discussion.

good luck.

[MrFusion]

Hi,

Thanks for your suggestion Deacon Crusher.

Unfortunately neither downgrading the firmware (to 20090225 0), nor setting miniplayer/forced_max_push_size=32768 helped (this last change seemed to make the problem more pronounced - larger skips, more frequent).

Further detail to the problem -- after staring at the screen for about an hour I noticed that I might even be seeing that during the 'stutter' the hd200 may even go back a couple of frames. eg frames go 1 2 3 4 5 6 6 3 3 10 11 12. Not 100% though -- could be persistence of vision / perception thing.

So... sorta stuck. Any other hints or suggestions?

Cheers!

[Deacon Crusher]

Hey that firmware date doesn't look right, was that a typo?

You want the 20090505. That's the magical version for me.

Thanks

[Taddeusz]

This actually sounds like the age old problem of judder in pulling film up to 60Hz. Unless you are inputting the film 23.976fps to the TV and have a 120Hz TV there is going to be pull-up done by the HD200. This would introduce the very same kind of judder you see on DVD's where the same thing has been done during production of the DVD. The only difference is that it's being done in realtime rather than during production.

And of course this judder is most noticeable during horizontal pans.

[MrFusion]

Originally Posted by Deacon Crusher

Hey that firmware date doesn't look right, was that a typo?

You want the 20090505. That's the magical version for me.

Thanks

Indeed it was a typo . The firmware I downloaded was "20090505 0".

Thanks for picking that up!

Interestingly enough, apart from this issue, the new beta firmware ("20090805 0" as at this date) has been pretty good, stable, etc.

Cheers!

[MrFusion]

Originally Posted by Taddeusz

This actually sounds like the age old problem of judder in pulling film up to 60Hz.

Thanks for your suggestion Taddeusz.

Unfortunately, this doesn't seem to be the issue. I have tried setting the HD200 to both PAL & NTSC playback (ie 50hz, and 60hz) but can't see any real difference. Generally, playing back in PAL mode eliminates judder (or should) -- the media plays back frame-for-frame (no additional frames inserted by HD200), and the movie simply plays about 1% faster.

Also, DVDs play back silky smooth. This problem only seems to affect HD content.

I'm playing back on an LG 60PS40FD (PAL), by the way.

Other things I have tried --

• copying the files to a removable HDD and playing back off that in standalone mode. Result: no perceivable difference
• changing various modes on the LG (energy saver, edge enhancement, etc etc). No difference
• playing back at different resolutions -- no difference
• playing movie back off HTPC (rather than HD200), nice and smooth
• fiddling around with various rendering & enhancement options (ie within ffdshow, as well as using different renderers). Result -- under certain circumstances the CPU maxes out and this judder/microstutter problem appears

So, the issue might be around the decoding / enhancing / rendering chain -- maybe running out of resources and so dropping frames???

I logged into the HD200 and ran 'top', but CPU running at low utilisation (I presume because the video is being handled by dedicated hardware).

Is there any way to see how busy this is, and if/when/how frames are dropped.

Any logging / OSD / debug mode I could use?


Many thanks!

[Deacon Crusher]

agreed 0805 firmware is very nice except for this issue.

And since for me the 0505 doesn't have this issue, but does have issues with subtitles it's really tough to choose between.

Have you tried swapping out whatever switch sits between your server and your extender as this seems to have helped other users whove had versions of this problem (hasn't helped me.)

Good luck.

Originally Posted by MrFusion

Indeed it was a typo . The firmware I downloaded was "20090505 0".

Thanks for picking that up!

Interestingly enough, apart from this issue, the new beta firmware ("20090805 0" as at this date) has been pretty good, stable, etc.

Cheers!

[stanger89]

Originally Posted by MrFusion

Thanks for your suggestion Taddeusz.

Unfortunately, this doesn't seem to be the issue. I have tried setting the HD200 to both PAL & NTSC playback (ie 50hz, and 60hz) but can't see any real difference. Generally, playing back in PAL mode eliminates judder (or should) -- the media plays back frame-for-frame (no additional frames inserted by HD200), and the movie simply plays about 1% faster.

You need to define a custom 1080p24 timing if you want to playback without judder. I doubt setting it to PAL does what you're expecting it to. The "PAL speedup" is usually done at the mastering/authoring stage because it requires resampling of the audio. Or perhaps that's the problem, if you're running 50Hz output, it's possible it is trying to play "frame-for-frame" but this will result in the audio/video getting out of sync (because the audio needs to be resampled and/or AC3 frames dropped) so it has to pause/skip to get back in sync?

And which input are you using? it seems 24Hz is only supported on the HDMI input.

Also, DVDs play back silky smooth. This problem only seems to affect HD content.

Well if you're talking PAL DVDs on a PAL TV, that makes sense since the DVDs will already have the PAL speedup applied.

• copying the files to a removable HDD and playing back off that in standalone mode. Result: no perceivable difference
• changing various modes on the LG (energy saver, edge enhancement, etc etc). No difference
• playing back at different resolutions -- no difference
• playing movie back off HTPC (rather than HD200), nice and smooth

What exactly are your settings on the HTPC? Resolution, refresh rate, audio output, etc?

• fiddling around with various rendering & enhancement options (ie within ffdshow, as well as using different renderers). Result -- under certain circumstances the CPU maxes out and this judder/microstutter problem appears

FFDshow settings will have zero effect on the extender, no decoding is done on the PC when using the extender.

[hockeyfan]

The Sage heavyweights (taddeuszm, stanger89) hit the nail on the head. 24 FPS. I use settings that stanger89 suggested and i have very fluid movie motion (projector supports 24fps rendering). As a side question (don't need it, more of an educational pursuit) does the hd-200 support the other 3:2 pulldown method?

[stanger89]

Which "other" 3:2 pulldown method?

[Taddeusz]

Unfortunately I'll have to put up with the judder until I can afford to buy a 120Hz (or 240Hz.... why?) TV. My Insignia doesn't support a 24Hz input as it's only a 60Hz TV.

[MrFusion]

Hi Stanger89, many thanks for taking an interest in this

Originally Posted by stanger89

You need to define a custom 1080p24 timing if you want to playback without judder.

Ok, I'll look into that, thanks. I presume this is in sage.properties? I'll do some searches to see what I can see...

Anyone done this successfully? Any hints / tips / pointers / URLS?

I doubt setting it to PAL does what you're expecting it to. The "PAL speedup" is usually done at the mastering/authoring stage because it requires resampling of the audio. Or perhaps that's the problem, if you're running 50Hz output, it's possible it is trying to play "frame-for-frame" but this will result in the audio/video getting out of sync (because the audio needs to be resampled and/or AC3 frames dropped) so it has to pause/skip to get back in sync?

Sorry for not making this clearer earlier -- I'm talking purely in the context of film -> bluray transfer (ie 24fps), not broadcast TV rips, telemovies, 'movies' made using video, etc. Also, I'm working in the PAL half of the world (ie, outside USA), using a PAL display, and PAL movies.

And apologies for contradicting you but, in this area, if the media is encoded properly, it will usually be done using "2:2 pulldown" -- ie it is not Telecined, it is frame-for-frame, there is no "PAL speedup" done at mastering/authoring, and hence there is no way to introduce telecine judder.

"PAL speedup" occurs at playback. When playing back 23.97 movie content at 50hz, the content is encoded at 2:2, and most (if not all) decoder/renderer chains simply play back frame-for-frame and merely speed up the audio to match. The approx 4% speedup isn't noticeable unless you run it side-by-side with the 'original' audio (it's about a semitone up).

The decoder/render chain usually does not (and should not!) perform pulldown to slow down playback to match the original movie.

In very rare instances, where the soundtrack is perhaps of greater importance (eg concert performance), or where the above speedup is particularly noticeable for whatever reason, the movie will usually be 'soft telecined' (ie on disk, as opposed to being performed by hardware ('hard telecine')) to 2:2:2:2:2:2:2:2:2:2:2:3 (Euro) pulldown. Euro pulldown can introduce a very slight judder, but what I am seeing doesn't look like a single frame repeated every twelve frames -- what I'm seeing is much much more dramatic.

Telecine conversion (ie 2:3 pulldown) is only (should only be) performed for film source destined for playback on NTSC.

One thing that might be causing the issue is if the HD200 is not properly recognising the PAL source, and performing the 2:3 pulldown before sending to the display.

By the way, a really good 'laymans' explanation of Telecine can be found at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Telecine.

If I had to guess, I'd say there are four possibilities:

• The HD200 is mistakenly applying 2:3 pulldown to the source, and then playing this back at PAL rates
• The HD200 decode/render chain is running out of CPU, and hence dropping frames
• There is a problem in the source encoding
• There is some other bug in the HD200...

(that should just about cover everything )

Dunno which one, so will keep pluggin away. Given what I'm seeing, I suspect that something in the decode/render chain is mistakenly applying some form of processing (be it telecine, de-interlace, rescale, or whatever) to the BD content, thereby running out of CPU/resources, and hence dropping frames and juddering.

And which input are you using? it seems 24Hz is only supported on the HDMI input.

HDMI to an LG 60PS40FD, 1080p, configured PAL (tried NTSC without luck).

Well if you're talking PAL DVDs on a PAL TV, that makes sense since the DVDs will already have the PAL speedup applied.

PAL DVDs, PAL BDs, PAL TV. Discussion on 'PAL speedup' as per above.

What exactly are your settings on the HTPC? Resolution, refresh rate, audio output, etc?

The HTPC is using Media Player Classic, or Media Portal, with video decoded by ffdshow. No trace of Sage anywhere. Just plays the media off local hardrive or network share (off 2003 server). Resolution is 1920x1080p, HDMI output, 50hz. Playback is nice and smooth.

FFDshow settings will have zero effect on the extender, no decoding is done on the PC when using the extender.

Sorry that I didn't explain clearly. I was talking about fiddling around with the HTPC, not the Sage server or HD200. This was to see if I could get it to duplicate the issue I see on the HD200.

It did once I maxed out CPU (by eg: getting it to rescale and sharpen) and the HTPC started dropping frames and jittering badly. Looked exactly like what the HD200 is doing.

This is why I suspect there might be a config issue in the BD decode/render setup. It happened to me in the early days -- I managed to build a configuration which de-interlaced / rescaled / sharpened DVD content very nicely, pans very smooth, etc, but forgot to turn this off for BD. I still had rescaling turned on, CPU maxed out, video started juddering badly. Looked just like the HD200 does...


Anyway, thanks for the feedback. Keep it coming!!

[stanger89]

Originally Posted by MrFusion

Ok, I'll look into that, thanks. I presume this is in sage.properties? I'll do some searches to see what I can see...

Anyone done this successfully? Any hints / tips / pointers / URLS?

Try extender_extra_resolutions and 1080p24 or 1080p23.

And apologies for contradicting you but, in this area, if the media is encoded properly, it will usually be done using "2:2 pulldown" -- ie it is not Telecined, it is frame-for-frame, there is no "PAL speedup" done at mastering/authoring, and hence there is no way to introduce telecine judder.

That's what I'm talking about. When DVDs are encoded for PAL they're authored differently than they are for NTSC. Instead of being encoded at the standard 24 fps with 3:2 telecine to 60i, they're "sped up" by the 4% or so to 25 fps and encoded at with 2:2 telecine to 50i. The important thing is this is done at encoding.

"PAL speedup" occurs at playback. When playing back 23.97 movie content at 50hz, the content is encoded at 2:2, and most (if not all) decoder/renderer chains simply play back frame-for-frame and merely speed up the audio to match. The approx 4% speedup isn't noticeable unless you run it side-by-side with the 'original' audio (it's about a semitone up).

Not true, open up a VOB with something like MediaInfo, you'll see the PAL DVDs are encoded at 25fps, while NTSC ones are encoded at 24fps. The speedup is done at encoding.

Now with Blu-ray, things are different, to the best of my knowledge 25fps is not available (50i might be). This means, again to the best of my knowledge films are encoded at 24fps on blu-ray, even in "PAL" regions.

The result is that 24fps on a 50Hz display is likely to be worse than on a 60Hz display

The decoder/render chain usually does not (and should not!) perform pulldown to slow down playback to match the original movie.

For pal change to be done at playback you need to do something special like user Reclock, and if you do, you have to use analog/decoded output because reclock has to resample the audio to keep the audio and video in sync.

HDMI to an LG 60PS40FD, 1080p, configured PAL (tried NTSC without luck).

Does it report what timing it's getting? Not living in PAL land I don't know if the PAL setting has any effect on the HD resolutions, I don't know if it changes the extender to 1080i50 instead of 1080i60 for instance.

But regardless I don't see good things happening with 1080p24 at either 50 or 60 Hz.

PAL DVDs, PAL BDs, PAL TV. Discussion on 'PAL speedup' as per above.

AFAIK, there's no such thing as a "PAL" Blu-ray, all BDs are 24fps, for films, not necessarily video.

[MrFusion]

Hi everyone,

Very excited, so had to let you know -- just got home and, following instructions at http://forums.sagetv.com/forums/show...693#post252693, created a custom resolution of 1920x1080p@24 (set extender_resolution_extra_modes=1920x1080p@24|standard\=HDMI_1080p24 in the <hd200_mac_address>.properties file in the clients directory).

Played back bluray at 50hz -- nasty judder. Change to the new 24hz and - VOILA! - creamy smooth!!

Thank you very much Stanger89 for the suggestion

Now, only one problem -- I also set native_output_resolution_switching=true, yet the HD200 is staying on 50hz. I need to manually change the output (by pressing "Video Out" on the remote) before it will switch to 24hz.

So... how can I get the HD200 to automatically recognise bluray content and switch to 24hz, then back to 50hz for everything else (remembering I'm in a PAL region)?

Is there some log I can check to see what the HD200 thinks the movie is encoded in?

Thanks again!!

[stanger89]

Do you have 1080p enabled? Try disabling it.

[MrFusion]

Originally Posted by stanger89

Do you have 1080p enabled? Try disabling it.

Hi,

Not sure what you mean, sorry. The only custom resolution (extender_resolution_extra_modes) I have set is for the 24hz.

By default, the HD200 uses 1920x1080p for everything (which is good for TV and DVD, just BD suffers).

How / where could I disable1080p (and why)?

What would happen to TV & DVD playback?

Is there a way that I can find out what the HD200 thinks the resolutions/refresh rates are for TV, DVDs, and BDs it's playing? If so, maybe I could align these with settings for custom resolutions & thereby get HD200 to pick the right combo??

Sometimes wish there was more/better docco...

Cheers!

[stanger89]

Originally Posted by MrFusion

Hi,

Not sure what you mean, sorry. The only custom resolution (extender_resolution_extra_modes) I have set is for the 24hz.

Not custom, just of the standard resolutions in the setup gui.

By default, the HD200 uses 1920x1080p for everything (which is good for TV and DVD, just BD suffers).

Sounds like you do

How / where could I disable1080p (and why)?

Because the Extender's logic is not yet very sophisticated, it will match resolution, and "i" or "p" but doesn't appear to match actual framerates yet. This means when it finds a "p" file, or an otherwise unmatchable file, it will default to the highest resolution you have enabled.

I had the same issue, so I disabled 1080p (60), I only have 480i, 480p, 720p, 1080i and the custom 1080p24 enabled.

What would happen to TV & DVD playback?

Well they should all be interlaced so they should be output at the native 480i/1080i

Is there a way that I can find out what the HD200 thinks the resolutions/refresh rates are for TV, DVDs, and BDs it's playing?

The video detailed info will list the format of all your videos.

If so, maybe I could align these with settings for custom resolutions & thereby get HD200 to pick the right combo??

It shouldn't really be necessary, at least not in my experience (which is non PAL ). For me, the stock resolutions work great for everything but film content. All my TV recordings are 480i60, 720p60, or 1080i60, and all my DVDs are 480i60, and Sage perfectly switches to the correct output with native output switching for all of those. The only potential issue's I've run into are on "unmatchable" imported vids, it just goes to 1080p24 (because it's the "highest" available resolution), but so far that's been fine because the vids are always 24fps anyway.

[MrFusion]

Originally Posted by stanger89

I had the same issue, so I disabled 1080p (60), I only have 480i, 480p, 720p, 1080i and the custom 1080p24 enabled.

YAY - FIXED!

Bit of a workaround, but functional.

So, what I did:

• Turn off HD200
• Modify <hd200_mac_address>.properties file in the client subdirectory of the SageTV server install. Set the following: extender_resolution_extra_modes=1920x1080p@24|standard\=HDMI_1080p24
• Restart the HD200 in standalone mode
• Go to display settings, enable all display modes EXCEPT for 1080p. This effectively makes the 1080p24 mode the "best"
• Set 1080i as the startup mode
• Enabled native resolution switching
• (last two steps probably not necessary if using in purely extender mode)
• Reconnected HD200 to server in extender mode
• Go to setup again
• Set the default output resolution to 1080p at 23.976
• Enabled native resolution switching

That's it

HD200 automatically changes mode as necessary, and TV, DVDs, and BDs play back at appropriate resolution, interlace, and refresh mode (my LG plasma display does the de-interlacing for eg PAL DVDs which play back at 576i). Everything plays back very smoothly and is very pleasant to watch.

For Blurays, the HD200 doesn't actually recognise the appropriate mode, so just sets the "best" mode. As per the above, 1080p24 is now the "best", and since this is what blurays 'should' be played back at, everything works perfectly (but fragile -- eg if someone enables 1080p50/60, then 1080p24 is no longer "best", so the p50/60 is selected instead, and problem returns).

Thanks very much St(r)anger89 (and others) for all your excellent help!!

Truly brilliant to have this level of support from the community!


Next steps:

• Make this a sticky? Or maybe write a better summary and make that sticky?
• Request to Sage to make the whole resolution matching easier. Perhaps some sort of tool for setting up rules or pattern matching (ie take a number of input parameters such as horiz res, vert res, i/p, frame rate, fourcc, or similar, and from this determine/lookup output mode?)
• Continue discussion with Stanger89 on how content is encoded / stored / played back (we never really concluded that part of the thread, and I think there is a lot of valuable info which could be shared)? Maybe write an FAQ together? What do you reckon -- up for it?

Thanks again!!

[stanger89]

Originally Posted by MrFusion

For Blurays, the HD200 doesn't actually recognise the appropriate mode, so just sets the "best" mode. As per the above, 1080p24 is now the "best", and since this is what blurays 'should' be played back at, everything works perfectly (but fragile -- eg if someone enables 1080p50/60, then 1080p24 is no longer "best", so the p50/60 is selected instead, and problem returns).

FWIW, I think it does "recognize" them as 1080p, the issue is the resolution matching doesn't go all the way down to refresh/frame rate, it only matches resolution and "i"/"p" so it does intentionally go to 1080p for BDs, it's just that it doesn't know enough to go to 1080p24 instead of 1080p60.

Fortunately there isn't any 1080p60 content to speak of so disabling that isn't really a problem

• Request to Sage to make the whole resolution matching easier. Perhaps some sort of tool for setting up rules or pattern matching (ie take a number of input parameters such as horiz res, vert res, i/p, frame rate, fourcc, or similar, and from this determine/lookup output mode?)

Better matching would be nice but there's really only two "problems" with the current situation:
1) Not all "standard" resolutions are selectable through the GUI, ie 1080p24 which is a standard output resolution isn't selectable.
2) Native resolution matching doesn't take frame rate into account.

If those two "problems" were addressed we'd be about golden.

• Continue discussion with Stanger89 on how content is encoded / stored / played back (we never really concluded that part of the thread, and I think there is a lot of valuable info which could be shared)? Maybe write an FAQ together? What do you reckon -- up for it?

Thanks again!!

If you keep asking questions, I'll be happy to answer, if I've got them...