HD-PVR Stops Responding ~Once/Day

[rileydogmi]

I am one who has tried off and on for about 12 months to get a stable system - I bought the HDPVR and SageTV around 10/08 - after literally a year of trying everything under the sun and about $4,000 later, I believe I have a solution - now it has been stable for over 2 weeks recording almost constantly and no lockups. I have about 1TB of video recorded with no lockups. Now that I write this I expect to be jinxed but until then....

So my lesson is this - only install the driver versions and software you received with your unit. Once I upgraded my drivers to newer versions, lockups would occur so after a year of trying everything on these threads, I decided to go back to basics - install just what was on my HDPVR CD, no updates to TME or the HDPVR drivers - I updated to the latest versions of SageTV and XP (and Java) but kept the versions on my HDPVR CD.

Working great - I have a C2 unit so maybe that is the problem with using newer versions - I am trying to get the unit exchanged from Hauppauge but now I am content because for 2 weeks+, I have finally been able to use this. I do absolutely love it now it is working but wow, the effort was unreal - I had to call Microsoft a dozen times to get activation codes because I over activated the system - I rebuilt dozens of times...

My $0.02 for all those having problems is to use what was shipped with no changes or updates - if that works, take a snapshot then venture with new drivers/changes because if you have anything similar to my situation, you will be going back to that snapshot when the lockups occur.

[cat6man]

hoping not to tempt the fates, but here is another data point

my 2 hdpvr run off mot7100 stb with firewire channel change...........i have not
missed a single recording since moving to sage earlier this year (they were solid on btv before that as well)

here is the interesting point:
while recordings are flawless and reliable, i can often lock up a hdpvr by trying
liveTV (i.e. watch a show from epg)..............not all the time but often enough
that i'm sure i can trigger a lockup..............also gets an error message from sage (don't remember what it was though).............liveTV with hdhr is perfect, only problems are with hdpvr.............then i have to go down to the
basement and power the unit off/on, at which point it gets happy again

sounds like a clue to something, though i'm not sure what would differ between making a recording and watching a program (which streams out the recording, right?)

in any case, i don't really use liveTV, just stumbled on this phenomenon.
perhaps it gives someone a clue to something that can lock up an otherwise
perfectly performing hdpvr

p.s. i'm quite happy not using liveTV and NOT tempting the gods, so i don't plan to do any more testing on this

[tvmaster2]

Originally Posted by rileydogmi

I am one who has tried off and on for about 12 months to get a stable system - I bought the HDPVR and SageTV around 10/08 - after literally a year of trying everything under the sun and about $4,000 later, I believe I have a solution - now it has been stable for over 2 weeks recording almost constantly and no lockups. I have about 1TB of video recorded with no lockups. Now that I write this I expect to be jinxed but until then....

So my lesson is this - only install the driver versions and software you received with your unit. Once I upgraded my drivers to newer versions, lockups would occur so after a year of trying everything on these threads, I decided to go back to basics - install just what was on my HDPVR CD, no updates to TME or the HDPVR drivers - I updated to the latest versions of SageTV and XP (and Java) but kept the versions on my HDPVR CD.

Working great - I have a C2 unit so maybe that is the problem with using newer versions - I am trying to get the unit exchanged from Hauppauge but now I am content because for 2 weeks+, I have finally been able to use this. I do absolutely love it now it is working but wow, the effort was unreal - I had to call Microsoft a dozen times to get activation codes because I over activated the system - I rebuilt dozens of times...

My $0.02 for all those having problems is to use what was shipped with no changes or updates - if that works, take a snapshot then venture with new drivers/changes because if you have anything similar to my situation, you will be going back to that snapshot when the lockups occur.

I have just implemented this concept - i.e. remove everything, start fresh with what came on the disc. So far, after 24 hours - no crashes. Fingers crossed. Version E

[Chriscic]

Originally Posted by rileydogmi

So my lesson is this - only install the driver versions and software you received with your unit.

Thanks for sharing your experience. Unfortunately, there are probably 50 different experiences here on what seems to have worked or not worked. The only ones who probably do or can understand what is driving the issue is Hauppauge, and they remain silent.

After I RMAed my unit for the fourth time (to an E1), my system ran flawlessly for about 6 months and then went lock-up city again with nothing having changed on my system.

[tvmaster2]

Originally Posted by Chriscic

Thanks for sharing your experience. Unfortunately, there are probably 50 different experiences here on what seems to have worked or not worked. The only ones who probably do or can understand what is driving the issue is Hauppauge, and they remain silent.

After I RMAed my unit for the fourth time (to an E1), my system ran flawlessly for about 6 months and then went lock-up city again with nothing having changed on my system.

for what it's worth, the administrators on this board have gone kinda silent about this issue, which is odd, because the sales combo of SageTV software, HD200 and HD PVR are so intertwined that there should be more of an "official" presence here. Have you tried writing directly to SageTV's support channel? Since they advertise these items as harmonious (don't they?), then I think they are just as responsible as Hauppauge are. At the bare minimum, there should be a system that works perfectly that we can all buy (this MB with this RAM with this OS with this VIDEO CARD).
If a perfectly good system goes bad in six months, it's gotta be hardware that's badly made, no? Or, easily corrupted drivers.

[Chriscic]

Originally Posted by tvmaster2

for what it's worth, the administrators on this board have gone kinda silent about this issue, which is odd, because the sales combo of SageTV software, HD200 and HD PVR are so intertwined that there should be more of an "official" presence here. Have you tried writing directly to SageTV's support channel? Since they advertise these items as harmonious (don't they?), then I think they are just as responsible as Hauppauge are. At the bare minimum, there should be a system that works perfectly that we can all buy (this MB with this RAM with this OS with this VIDEO CARD).
If a perfectly good system goes bad in six months, it's gotta be hardware that's badly made, no? Or, easily corrupted drivers.

Your observations and perspective mirror mine. I'm actually in the middle of some dialogue with Sage tech support; I'll let that finish before I try and speak as to Sage's position. Of course, it would have been really nice if Sage could have just made their position clear sometime in the past year-and-a-half, since as you point out the products are substantially intertwined.

There's no question the hardware is poor. And there's no question in my mind that Hauppauge knows this but is not interested in addressing it and helping it's customers.

I missed the Survivor tribal council in tonight's episode because of a locked-up HD-PVR. Unless something changes I'm going to be abandoning Sage pretty soon. I guess back to (shudder) Comcast and adding cablecard to my system.

[mikel]

I just had a Kworld USB tuner stop working correctly. It reports it should be connected to a USB2.0 port, which it is. I have two of these devices and one works fine in both ports. Sage would randomly stop recording with it.

As I started thinking about it, I remember a friends Dell computer that I fixed a little while back, it was experiencing odd USB device issues which turned out to be bad capacitors on the motherboard. USB devices that drew power from the ports had issues, while low power/self powered devices didn't. I replaced them and everything worked fine again.

We run these machines 24/7 and the heat can sometimes kill those capacitors.
I know some people report putting in PCI cards to solve their HD-PVR problems, and this is likely the cause.
I'm going to try to fix my tuner, but wanted to share this thought with others.

An external powered USB hub may also help get things running for awhile longer. New MB is probably the better choice.

FYI, trying to plug in his IPod which charges itself from the port was the first device to start going.. Perhaps do this to test your ports. (or Iphone).

[Chriscic]

Although I'm sure a wonky USB controller can bonk any USB hardware, the problem HD-PVR problem is not caused by this issue.

[tvmaster2]

Originally Posted by Chriscic

Although I'm sure a wonky USB controller can bonk any USB hardware, the problem HD-PVR problem is not caused by this issue.

I just can't imagine why both companies get on the phone with each other and get their products to work as advertised with each other, before all of us give up and go the HD Tivo or local cable company DVR route (gasp).

As far as a funky USB port, I too have had many instances where by just fiddling with the USB connection on the back of the HD-PVR, the unit either connected properly to my HTPC, or I was given the old "this USB device has stopped responding".

All we can do is keep RMA'ing the box until the warranty runs out.

[Chriscic]

After sending back units three times already (as well as buying a second unit) I'm not keen on sending any more back. I mean, that's 5 units I've had in-hand already, and other than my mysterious (and beautiful) 5-6 month run of perfection they've all failed... and across multiple machines with different OS and configurations so it's not my machine.

I may see if I can open mine up soon and get some more cooling in there. I'm guessing the chips may overheat even under normal conditions.

I had another response from the consistently excellent Sage support team on the lock-up issue, and I don't think they'd mind me paraphrasing the reply here:
"We've done a lot to address HD-PVR issues with our software, but we can't fix all their problems."

The tech stated he would forward my concerns along to another person at Sage who has direct contact with Hauppauge. Hopefully some additional info. will be forthcoming.

[eric3a]

I had another response from the consistently excellent Sage support team on the lock-up issue, and I don't think they'd mind me paraphrasing the reply here:
"We've done a lot to address HD-PVR issues with our software, but we can't fix all their problems."

That's the main reason I moved to SageTV from BTV.
It was clear on my setup that I had a lot less issues and lock-ups in Sage than in BTV, and I credit the software for being "HDPVR error resistant".
Eric

[jerryt]

1. Do a clean install of the drivers
2. Revert to 1.0.5.301 drivers after using hwclear
3. Keep the HD-PVR cool
4. Don’t use SPDIF for audio, use RCA
5. Don’t use hardware versions earlier than E1
6. Defragment your hard drives
7. Lock component output to 720p
8. Use a NEC PCIe USB card
9. Filter power through a UPS
10. Increase Java memory
11. Isolate the HDPVR on its own physical controller
12. Use ferrite beads on the USB cables
13. Upgrade firmware running HcwDriverInstall.exe separately for each HD-PVR
14. Tape over the HD-PVR IR port
15. Enable "Tell me if this device can perform faster" for all your USB ports.

Just experienced a problem where all my USB ports reverted to 1.1 instead of 2.0

The HD-PVR would work, but barely. Locked up very easy. I noted the warning about "this can perform faster" but it took me awhile to figure how to get back the 2.0 USB. I had to uninstall all the USB ports in the device manager and reboot. Not sure what caused the ports to revert to 1.1

[tvmaster2]

Originally Posted by Chriscic

After sending back units three times already (as well as buying a second unit) I'm not keen on sending any more back. I mean, that's 5 units I've had in-hand already, and other than my mysterious (and beautiful) 5-6 month run of perfection they've all failed... and across multiple machines with different OS and configurations so it's not my machine.

I may see if I can open mine up soon and get some more cooling in there. I'm guessing the chips may overheat even under normal conditions.

I had another response from the consistently excellent Sage support team on the lock-up issue, and I don't think they'd mind me paraphrasing the reply here:
"We've done a lot to address HD-PVR issues with our software, but we can't fix all their problems."

The tech stated he would forward my concerns along to another person at Sage who has direct contact with Hauppauge. Hopefully some additional info. will be forthcoming.

Wow - that many eh? That blows - hopefully if they do admit what's wrong they'll fix you up.

[OldPCGUY]

I recently upgraded to Sage from 6.5.18 to 6.6.2 and now I am getting more frequent HDPVR lockups.

Unfortunately, since I cannot find the root cause then I am unlikely to place blame on Sage. What I do see is that 90% of the time I can just unplug the USB port but 10% of the time I have to power cycle the unit.

Sage gives me >40 error meassges for the HDPVR lockup when trying to record and states that it is trying to reset the HDPVR.

So my question is exactly what is Sage Resetting? (The USB port or are they actually sending a soft reset to the HDPVR). Why doesn't this reset work? What is the minimum time between any 2 resets?

I also think that Sage could be hanging the HDPVR by sending so many resets. Does anyone have any comments on this?

Is there a way to tell sage not to reset the HDPVR. (Ie its clear that this does not work and so are we making the problem worse?).

[martin]

Have you tried downgrading to the 1.0.5.301 drivers?

I was observing the same behavior as you are; I could unplug the USB cable of a locked HD-PVR and then plug it back in to recover it. A week ago I ran hwclear.exe, then installed the 1.0.5.301 drivers from a Version 2.1A driver disk that came with one of my D2's. I ran HcwDriverInstall.exe separately for each HD-PVR to downgrade the firmware.

I haven't had a single lockup since, and my system has been solid for a week now. Give it a try.

[Chriscic]

I doubt that any of this is Sage's fault (outside of selling and endorsing the flaky HD-PVR for use with Sage).

It would be interesting to understand what Sage is doing with the attempted resets though. I haven't given it much thought since it seems obvious that if the unit requires a power cycle, Sage software isn't going to be able to do that.

I've had more communication with both Sage and Hauppauge via email. As soon as that wraps up I'll share what I've learned. Also after that maybe I'll go ahead and try falling back to those older drivers.

[HelenWeathers]

Originally Posted by OldPCGUY

I recently upgraded to Sage from 6.5.18 to 6.6.2 and now I am getting more frequent HDPVR lockups......

When I was running Win XP SP3 (32bit) I had problems with the new magic setting in sage.properties. The default is:
mmc/hdpvr_magic=true

I had to set mine to mmc/hdpvr_magic=false. YMMV but worth a try.

[jerryt]

For the hell of it I went from 1.0.5.301 to the 1.5.6.1 drivers and it has been solid for 4 days. 1.5.6.0 was never solid for me.

Go figure? It is like the firmware corrupts and reinstalling the drivers gets it working again until it corrupts again...

[OldPCGUY]

Originally Posted by HelenWeathers

When I was running Win XP SP3 (32bit) I had problems with the new magic setting in sage.properties. The default is:
mmc/hdpvr_magic=true

I had to set mine to mmc/hdpvr_magic=false. YMMV but worth a try.

Very interesting, I wonder what this setting does?????

So there is a list of things to try and so my initial plan was to

1. Do a clean install of the drivers YES (read Below)
2. Revert to 1.0.5.301 drivers after using hwclear NO!! I want 5.1
3. Keep the HD-PVR cool Yes Moved it off top of warm DISH Receiver
4. Don’t use SPDIF for audio, use RCA NO!! I want 5.1
5. Don’t use hardware versions earlier than E1 Yes (Have a Rev E1)
6. Defragment your hard drives Yes (Been doing this for 2 years)
7. Lock component output to 720p (Lower Bit Rate hmmm?????)
8. Use a NEC PCIe USB card (?????? Why? Robust Reciever???)
9. Filter power through a UPS Yes (ordered power filter)
10. Increase Java memory ( I will try this but probably not the problem)
11. Isolate the HDPVR on its own physical controller Yes (done)
12. Use ferrite beads on the USB cables (interesting read my post below)
13. Upgrade firmware running HcwDriverInstall.exe separately for each HD-PVR (does not apply to me)
14. Tape over the HD-PVR IR port (Very interesting and a good idea)
15. Enable "Tell me if this device can perform faster" for all your USB ports. (a good idea)


So I do not have an NEC PCIe USB card. I have a PQI with 4 ports so I connected the HDPVR to this card by itself and it would not install.
But this card was working for 3 other devices for ~ 6 months. Finnally a huge huge clue!!!

My HDPVR is connected via 1 USB2.0 6 foot cable and a ~10foot USB 2.0 cable.

So on a hunch (amplitude/Jitter problem due to long cables and unfiltered supply noise can cause random failures). I added a repeater cable in place of the extenstion and the HDPVR installed just fine. I would expect an active repeater cable to be much better than using ferrites. If you have a very long run then use a repeater cable. You can buy them at NewEgg

Okay so I probably had a marginal connection to my PC and it worked before (plugged to MB USB) due to the fact that the Mother Board USB receivers have better sensitivity.

USB 1.1 is max 12.1 Mbps and USB 2.0 is 480Mbps.
USB autonegotiates the Rates (part of USB protocol)

I suspect that my HDPVR link got setup at 2.0 since it can sometimes work for 3 days in a row. But with a Marginal Cable where Amplitude is minimized and Jitter is near the maximum you can become very sensitive to random noise events.

This really would explain the behaivor of my HDPVR failing at all times of the day. Noise could come from the PC, or any device on the powered on the same circuit breaker.

Its hard for me to believe that I have an Amplitude and Jitter problem at only 480Mbps with 16 Feet of cable so I will have to see how this next setup works.

If you have a case where the USB port is being down graded then it could be 3 possible things

1. Poor USB port in HDPVR
2. Poor USB port in PC
3. Poor Cable with high losses
or 4. A combination of all 3.


E&M Noise Case 1
----------------------
Just to give you an idea how noisy (E&M Noise) the Magnetic hard drive is just try installing one upside down in your PC. I accidently did this 2 years ago so that the back of the Hard was pointing up towards my Hauppauge capture card. This totally corrupted the Analog Reciever on the Hauppauge 1600 Card and the video looked just horrible. Installing the hard drive correctly fixed this problem. It was truely night and day.

AC Power Supply Noise Case 2
----------------------------------
About 8 years ago I subscribed to AT&T's now defunct Microwave HighSpeed network. They installed a small receiver near PC1. I also had a PC2 in another room. Whenever I tunred on PC1 then the link went down.
So I got a long extension cord and plugged the PC into another outlet on a different circuit breaker and the problem went away.

This is very very poor electrical design. These type of noise problems can easily be adderessed with good power filter design. Truely amazing that AT&T could release this modem to millions of consumers. No wonder it went under.

Isolating the HDPVR from the PC is a good idea and I plan on doing this also.

Here are a list of things that are related
New: Marginal USB Connection due to poor USB ports or cables

5. Don’t use hardware versions earlier than E1
(High Heat Older Units increases jitter and decreases amplitude)

7. Downgrading to 720P might help since the required bit rate will be less and might work in a 1.1 USB configuration

12. Adding Ferrite Beads or Repeater Cable

15. Enable "Tell me if this device can perform faster" for all your USB ports.

[eric3a]

Interesting approach.
I have wondered a few times if my USB cables might have anything to do with the frequent lock-ups in my setup earlier.

I doubt so because lock-ups stopped after a downgrade to 1.0.5.301 so I continue to believe the firmware corruption problem. (Not to say that the corruption couldn't happen due to poor cable?)

So where do I buy good USB cables? I wouldn't know what a good one looks like!! Any pointers?

Eric