SageTV vs Media Center 7

[pgman]

I don't really know anything about Codecs, graphs, and demuxers but I've been using a PC-based home-entertainment system since 2005, when I bought SageTV (I think it was version 4 then). I've tripped, stumbled and fallen all over the place trying to make my HTPC work exactly the way I wanted it to. Most of the time I failed, but I learned the whole time and, evnentually, I got it sorted out. I must say, it was worth it. I could never go back to doing home entertainment the old way.

Over the years, I've been frustrated with SageTV for reasons that are largely my own fault - I just didn't want to take the time to understand all this stuff. Television, to me, is an escape - a way to be lazy. That makes it something I am just not willing to work real hard to do. For that reason, I've been frustrated in the past with SageTV because of some of the little quirks and "bugs". I just wanted it to work perfectly right out of the box, and it didn't always do that for me - I am not sure why. Still, I always seemed to be able to get it to work well enough to become mostly transparent, which is the real mark of a good piece of software.

I've never modified anything on my Sage UI, nor do I want to. SageTV is definitely not as sexy as WMC (Vista or 7) but it is way more flexible and it doesn't blank out my screen and tell me that I do not have authorization to watch a program. That alone will keep me on the SageTV bandwagon. I gave up on SageTV for a while because I just couldn't get smooth HD playback with it. I started using Vista MC, and it worked very well for me (with the same hardware, by the way), but the PQ was not as good as with SageTV (the stuttering playback notwithstanding). I dropped VMC like a bad habit when it started with the DRM garbage, though. We missed the end of many shows because the screen would suddenly turn blue and a message would politely tell us that we were not authorized to watch this program. That's a bunch of crap. After this happened three times, I re-loaded SageTV and bought a more powerful video board. HD playback was acceptable after this upgrade and I've not looked back. I DID try Win7 MC and, in my opinion, the Vista version of Media Center was better. I only used it for about a day and I re-loaded SageTV on my brand-new Win7 install. 7MC just seems too invasive. I feel like someone is inside my TV watching ME. No thanks. Windows 7 is great, though.

The best part about SageTV, in my opinion, is that it STILL runs on my 5-year-old hardware that is at the end of it's upgrade path. I was able to get Vista to run on this machine pretty well - and Win7 runs better - but SageTV just sits there in the background, faithfully recording our favorite shows week after week, and it doesn't hog all the hardware and make the computer unusable for other things like web browsing or music playback. As long as SageTV remains an independent software that is not in bed with all the DRM horse hockey, I will be a customer.

[SilentBob]

Originally Posted by J3G

I sold it. For the sage price as SageTV HD Theater I purchased a netbook with ION.

Really? Because I've been looking for a netbook with ION and I can't seem to find one. Closest I've come is the Lenovo S12.

[sdsean]

Funny I read this post. . . and I completely disagree. . . Sage is really the best thing out there still. . . (granted my opinion)

However I agree that there is still lots of work that needs to be done. . . for example plugins/mgmt of them is getting out of control. . . and yeah there definately needs to be an entire UI upgrade (movie/music/pic wall [e.g. coverflow], better theme, fan art for all media being much easier to auto load, etc), Blu ray on the client pc. . .

I can totally understand venting. . .i love tweaking stuff and i am an engineer so that's my nature. . .but it can be a big pain. .

Still though . . all that configurability gives you power to solve problems. . . that alone makes Sage the best thing out there. . .

[SHS]

Originally Posted by J3G

4. Stop the hacking. Why is it that any feature of SageTV I would like to use needs a hack for it to work? I purchased SageTV MC because it was the first to support HD-PVR.

That odd I don't recall SageTV needing any hardcore hacks most of it had to do with Hauppauge by improve the drivers and hardware it self.
Now Vista and Windows7 MCE on other hand dose need a ture hardcore hack it called DVBSBridge for HDPVR.

Originally Posted by stanger89

It has?
It has cheap, fully functional extenders?
It has PC/software clients?
It can play DVD and Blu-ray rips on extenders?
It can "stream" the full interface and functionality across the internet?
It can run the backend functionality on a WHS or otherwise headless machine?
It can run on Linux or Mac?
It records without DRM issues?
etc
etc

You forgot the most important one of all Ture Multi-Source input, And let not forget this Network Encoders and fully customize Audio/Video setting and Prefiltering settings giving more control.
And best of all no max of 4 or 6=OEMPC like MCE has you see with SageTV it has no tuner limit, for Example let say I max out my motherboard all the way up to 18 tuner all in one system with (8) HVR-1950 USB Tuner, (4) HVR-2250 or HVR-1800 PCIe Dual Tuner and (2) HVR-1600 PCI tuner and being it a dual input I can also use 1 analog video input from each 1600 and 1800 all at same time all with use of GIGABYTE GA-MA770-UD3 keep in mind that is just an Example.

[matt91]

I think there are (at least) two distinct user groups:

1. The group who cares mostly about a solid mechanism for recording and playing TV shows
2. The group that wants an all-in-one interface for TV, movies, IP-streamed shows, game emulation, etc -- and all that with some 'zing' too.

these aren't mutually exclusive, of course.

I think that those who are firmly in group 1, like myself, couldn't really care about polished graphics. They want a dependable system for recording and playing back TV shows. Music, Movies and Photos are just an added bonus.

I suspect that many in group 2 don't like sage when compared with its competitors. there are other products that have more 'pop' or are more highly polished. They think that sage should be more finished and incorporate more features out of the box.

The "sage is bad" threads stir up a lot of discussion because it highlights the differences between these two groups.

[doc]

Originally Posted by Brent

just curious, is that because of problems you've had as a UK-based user?

There seem to have been a few UK users having a moan lately, mainly about EPG. It's not that hard. We have grabbers and we have xml importers. Yes you have to configure them but its not that hard.

As for eye candy, I spend most of my time watching programmes, not the GUI.

When you get to the point where you're more bothered about what the menu system looks like compared to the features and picture quality of the content you're watching..... I wonder why you would want this kind of product in the first place.

If you want something to 'impress your friends' maybe you should get a sports car instead, or even a new wife (or husband)!

(I'm not aiming this at anyone in particular, just venting my thoughts)

EDIT: I think Matt91's post before mine is spot on

[ytulpan]

There is a third group. Users outside of North America.

For this category, Sage is a somewhat iffy proposition, needing quite heroic tinkering efforts since the support for DVB/S and DVB/S2 tuners and content is fairly partial. There are many issues getting almost no developer attention, like bugs in the demux and HD-200, tuning issues, lack of DVB subtitles (a show-stopper in many places), lack of support for standard decryption modules (most of anything worth watching is encrypted), no support for DVB EPG, and others.

Some issues can be solved - not all in elegant ways - by addons and pieces of software written by third parties. But other products support this bread-and-butter very well, i.e. DVBViewer and even windows MC in many cases.

In my own case, due to a very strong user and developer base here in Israel, many issues have been solved (notable exception - DVB subtitles), thus permitting Sage's potential to be unleashed. But I can understand the frustration of users outside North America, that have a completely different experience than most of you folks, perfectly well . Did you know that even HD-200's wall wart, while fortunately supporting 110-240V, comes only with US-type prongs and needs an adapter. That's no big deal, but shows the attitude.

Also, similarly to GSM cellular networks, the DVB broadcasting is standardized in Europe (and is also used in most other places except north America), thus allowing a not-so-bad experience with STB's both operator supplied and third party. The competitiveness of this segment in Europe is greater that in the US, and the expected quality and ease-of-use are also greater.

Now, I do understand that a small US company can only do so much, but please be patient with the disconnect of some new users.

Thank you for your understanding.

[stanger89]

Originally Posted by pgman

I don't really know anything about Codecs, graphs, and demuxers but I've been using a PC-based home-entertainment system since 2005, when I bought SageTV (I think it was version 4 then). I've tripped, stumbled and fallen all over the place trying to make my HTPC work exactly the way I wanted it to. Most of the time I failed, but I learned the whole time and, evnentually, I got it sorted out. I must say, it was worth it. I could never go back to doing home entertainment the old way.

Over the years, I've been frustrated with SageTV for reasons that are largely my own fault - I just didn't want to take the time to understand all this stuff. Television, to me, is an escape - a way to be lazy. That makes it something I am just not willing to work real hard to do. For that reason, I've been frustrated in the past with SageTV because of some of the little quirks and "bugs". I just wanted it to work perfectly right out of the box, and it didn't always do that for me - I am not sure why. Still, I always seemed to be able to get it to work well enough to become mostly transparent, which is the real mark of a good piece of software.

That's why you get extenders

[Fuzzy]

Originally Posted by ytulpan

For this category, Sage is a somewhat iffy proposition, needing quite heroic tinkering efforts since the support for DVB/S and DVB/S2 tuners and content is fairly partial. There are many issues getting almost no developer attention, like bugs in the demux and HD-200, tuning issues, lack of DVB subtitles (a show-stopper in many places), lack of support for standard decryption modules (most of anything worth watching is encrypted), no support for DVB EPG, and others.

You have to understand that this really isn't that different from the US situation. The only significant difference is the EPG data. Sage has NO support for US based satellite service, except through an analog tuner and external satellite box. Be happy you get ANY digital satellite direct to the PC there. Sage would work pretty well with DVB-S and DVB-S2 with an HD-PVR and USB-UIRT connected to a DVB-S(2) Set-Top-Box.

[J3G]

Originally Posted by SilentBob

Really? Because I've been looking for a netbook with ION and I can't seem to find one. Closest I've come is the Lenovo S12.

Originally Posted by mikejaner

Even more pressing for me is, what ION Netbook can you get for $200? Hey says...

LOL! For those of you focusing on the $199 netbook. It was a typo. Should have been nettop. Search "acer aspire ion" at newegg to see what i'm talking about. You can't strip my street cred!

[J3G]

Maybe this will help the direction of the discussion. What is difference from stock MC7 and stock SageTV? Why would someone pay $79 for stock SageTV?

or is this a dumb question since 99% of the SageTV users are moders and tweakers?

ps. i'm a sagetv fan but how do I get my friends to want to use it? (because they don't want to hack it)

[Brent]

Originally Posted by J3G

Maybe this will help the direction of the discussion. What is difference from stock MC7 and stock SageTV? Why would someone pay $79 for stock SageTV?

or is this a dumb question since 99% of the SageTV users are moders and tweakers?

It does get confusing. A STV is basically the User Interface.

SageTV is now sold as SageTV Media Center. It comes out of the box with what is commonly referred to as the "stock" or "default" STV. There are also a few 3rd party developed STV's including the most popular of the bunch called SageMC. This blog post might help clear the confusion a bit hopefully.

Probably clear as mud. Let me know if I further confused the issue or not

[Fuzzy]

Actually, i paid about $90 to sage on my first purchase almost 6 years ago (server + 1 client license). Since then, I've spent $60 on placeshifter/mvp licenses, another $30 on the version 6 upgrade, and countless hundreds (thousands?) on hardware upgrades to my overall home theater system. Over this time, I have stuck with a pretty much stock sagetv setup. Sage is without a doubt the single most capable DVR system available. The stock system has a very simple, WAF friendly interface, records from any source I throw at it, without DRM, and has happily transitioned from many different locations/sources over the years. I have the same television interface on my Bigscreen, Small bedroom TV, office computer, any pc I choose at work, and even on the 7" touchscreen in my truck. All of this using stock SageTV software. The only feature i have used extensively that is NOT, by default, a part of sage, is the web interface, and the comskip import. The web interface is certainly not important, and i really only use it from public computers, or friends houses, to add something i forgot about. I could do that with placeshifter on a thumbdrive just as well (which i may start doing more often, since Charter just upgraded me to 2Mbps upstream, free-of-charge). Comskip, I wouldn't expect to be included in any commercial software, as it would just draw unwanted legal attention.

Of the features that i use daily (and my family has used daily for almost 6 years), 7MC would simply not fit the bill, not matter how 'cheap' it is.

[ytulpan]

Originally Posted by Fuzzy

You have to understand that this really isn't that different from the US situation. The only significant difference is the EPG data. Sage has NO support for US based satellite service, except through an analog tuner and external satellite box. Be happy you get ANY digital satellite direct to the PC there. Sage would work pretty well with DVB-S and DVB-S2 with an HD-PVR and USB-UIRT connected to a DVB-S(2) Set-Top-Box.

Yes, in fact you are mostly right. You still have a sizable free-to-air channel base, though. We don't here in Israel, in Europe mileage can vary depending on country, but they can have CAMs for generic boxes and PC's.

I don't like the HD-PVR solution. I used to have 2 of them, with USB-UIRT's. It usually worked, but there was a drop in quality, increase in file size, a large delay and stability was so-and-so. I had to punch holes in the HD-PVR to keep it from overheating. Too many components, heat, drivers. I understand the situation improved since, but this is still basically inelegant.

Having direct digital-to-PC with a CAM with no DRM is best. You really have to legally fight the cable/satellite companies to give you this option. A good persuasion would be if some third party developed a software CAM; but you have DMCA on your necks. Oh, they could be based in Antigua, couldn't they?

OK, I will stop complaining. You convinced me that we have it better here. Still I need DVB subtitles.

Oh, one more thing. I can't really understand people complaining about the cost of Sage. It is, in my view very inexpensive; also the HD-200. I don't get people spending thousands (or more) on Home Theater equipment and complaining about a completely marginal cost that completely redefines their media experience.

[stanger89]

Originally Posted by J3G

Maybe this will help the direction of the discussion. What is difference from stock MC7 and stock SageTV? Why would someone pay $79 for stock SageTV?

or is this a dumb question since 99% of the SageTV users are moders and tweakers?

No it's not a dumb question. First I'll get out of the way that I run Sage almost completely stock, the only customization I'm running at the moment is the comskip playback import. Other than that, bone stock SageTV.

Why do I use Sage over 7MC, well I listed it out in my first response, but to recap:

1. Extenders that play everything (DVD rips, BD rips)
2. Unlimited storage without "hacking"
3. Cheap extenders
4. Multiple lineups (this may actually be fixed in 7MC now)
5. Silent extenders
6. Native HD PVR
7. Ability to run the backend (recording engine) separately on a headless machine out of the way somewhere
8. Did I mention cheap, silent extenders that play everything?

I'm running 7MC ultimate on my desktop and Laptop right now, and I did actually go through and setup 7MC with my HDHR and played with it and my Xbox 360. And you know what, "meh". It's got a more "modern", more "polished" UI, but that's really it. I think in about every other way it's a draw or lacking compared to SageTV. There was not a thing about 7MC that made me want to use it. With one exception, yeah, I could probably get WMC to do what I need, but while I could care less about a shiny UI, not much less.

The #1 killer for me though is the crippled extenders in WMC. I've given up on using PCs for playback devices, they work, but extenders do everything I need, they do it easier, and often they do it better. But this means I need extenders that play DVD and BD rips in their native format. *MC extenders can't do that. Talk about hacking, you need a lot of "hacking" to get DVDs and especialy BDs working on WMC extenders.

I'm sort of split on the UI hatred for Sage. Yeah, it's not as shiny as 7MC or XBMC, but it's not by any means horrible, it's better than or at least on par with the UI on most STBs. Sage is actually a lot like the Dish Network UI (in some ways it's kind of eerie) .

ps. i'm a sagetv fan but how do I get my friends to want to use it? (because they don't want to hack it)

I don't know, it seems a lot of people mistake the ability to tweak Sage endlessly with a requirement that it needs to be tweaked endlessly. The most tweaking ("hacking" to use your term) I ever do with Sage is to install the latest beta. Beyond that I just use it.

[stanger89]

Originally Posted by ytulpan

Yes, in fact you are mostly right. You still have a sizable free-to-air channel base, though. We don't here in Israel, in Europe mileage can vary depending on country, but they can have CAMs for generic boxes and PC's.

I think you drastically overestimate the FTA situation here. Unless you want to use 30 birds and be limited to PBS-type stuff and foreign language station, there's almost nothing FTA.

I'll put it this way (I don't think I'm totally out of touch on FTA), the HD PVR even with all the trouble it's been, is still probably 10x easier than trying to get even a fraction of the HD FTA that I get via Dish and my HD PVR.

I'd need a yard full of dishes or I'd need to get a movable dish with diseq dish movers or some other crap like that. I'm sure that would be reliable, and not inelegant. Looking at lyngsat, the most "interesting network (which I think I never actually watch anything on anyway) is TNT HD on Intellisat Americas and it looks like I'd need a 2m dish to get that. And actually a bunch of the networks listed as "North America" are below the horizon for NA

I don't like the HD-PVR solution. I used to have 2 of them, with USB-UIRT's. It usually worked, but there was a drop in quality, increase in file size, a large delay and stability was so-and-so. I had to punch holes in the HD-PVR to keep it from overheating. Too many components, heat, drivers. I understand the situation improved since, but this is still basically inelegant.

Inelegant or not, it's the only way to record a decent selection of HD from satellite here. If we could use DVB-S w/cam here I can guarantee you the hoards would flock to that solution in a second, especially if it were like europe where the recordings are (AFAIK) DRM free.

Having direct digital-to-PC with a CAM with no DRM is best.

I agree completely, 110%, but were SOL here.

You really have to legally fight the cable/satellite companies to give you this option. A good persuasion would be if some third party developed a software CAM; but you have DMCA on your necks. Oh, they could be based in Antigua, couldn't they?

Dish and DirecTV have spent probably billions to stop that. They won't license their decryption tech to anyone so, like I said above, we're SOL.

[ytulpan]

Wow. I see. It's really that bad. So what good is 7MC for example ? Does MS get a licence for decrypting the stuff (even if DRM'ed) ? I mean, if you just want to see live TV on your PC, change channels, etc, etc, do you have to start a computer lab with HDPVRs blasters and all? This is not realistic for even the average literate PC user. Who bothers at all ? I am confused.

Tell me, does any of your providers use NDS CA's ? Cause for them there is a good solution. I mean, you still have to be a valid subscriber, but there is a good software CAM that interfaces a smartcard reader with a valid subscription card. I thought Hughes used NDS and isn't DirectTV a successor to that ? On second thought, if it were so, you'd all know about it.

At least you get all the shows first and are generous enough to record them somehow and torrent them to the world, so we don't have to wait until they get broadcast here. It boggles one's mind that all the restrictions and limitations on the paying users achieve the exact opposite. In many cases it's easier and faster to download stuff from the net than to deal with all the crap. That's how the music industry is disappearing, let's see what will happen to the TV space.

Also, sorry for my ignorance, but "SOL" is short for what ?

[sdsean]

Hey if you want simple. . .this isn't really the place (or at least not yet).

If I could not have to worry about DRM,
Could burn recordings to disk or keep them infinitely,
Could stream stuff anywhere in my house,
and didn't have to pay a fee monthly to have what equates to VCR
and manage all my digital media in one place
I gladly wouldn't go through all this hassle

and if you don't want to record anything. then Windows Media Center is probably fine. . .
(although extender issues would still be there)

But while it does require a lot of time, hardware, etc. . .once you manage to get through it you have a very well working setup that is great for the whole house hold

Yes it needs more polish, yes it needs more features. . .but its the most open and robust thing out there. . . no drm, no fees, no restrictions bottom line. . .

[sdsean]

by the way (btw). . . SOL is sh!# out of luck

[Fuzzy]

Originally Posted by ytulpan

Wow. I see. It's really that bad. So what good is 7MC for example ? Does MS get a licence for decrypting the stuff (even if DRM'ed) ? I mean, if you just want to see live TV on your PC, change channels, etc, etc, do you have to start a computer lab with HDPVRs blasters and all? This is not realistic for even the average literate PC user. Who bothers at all ? I am confused.

A lab? no.. a couple is enough for most people. The Over-The-Air is all free to receive here, it's just the pay satellite and cable services that are encrypted... and pretty much can only be decrypted by the provided set top boxes... Personally, I am lucky enough to use Dish Network, and use R-5000HD modified Set Top Boxes to get the raw digital feed into my computer. It's really the best way, however, the boxes that can be modified are no longer available, and the mod's are certainly not cheap.