Plugin: Jetty Web Server 2.0

[wayner]

It sure seems to me like the future looks like a world where the server side of SageTV will be on Linux. For me there was no compelling reason to move from V7 with one exception- 64 bit JVM. That is not available in Windows and may not be for months, years or ever.

So why should I expect anything different with other new functionality that may be added to V9?

So if you want a system that can take advantage of new functionality as it is added the your best bet is to go to Linux for your server And it also seems that the main developers are all on Linux as well, so how much support will they be able to offer Windows users if they don't even use it?

And if you are using the upgrade as a catalyst to build a new server then you should really think about Linux.

[Fuzzy]

Originally Posted by Taddeusz

Part of it might be that to really keep updated you have to set up a build environment.

It would be beneficial for there to be an automated build system when there's a commit to GitHub. Also being able to update the Sage.jar and STV from within SageTV would be very helpful towards making it more user friendly.

I'm an IT professional and developer so it was nothing for me to spin up a VM to handle builds. But otherwise I would have to wait weeks sometime months for Stuckless to update his Docker. Nothing against him, he does a great job with the time he has. But like everyone his time is limited.

Some automation and update ability would be great.

No user needs a build environment to use sagetv. Windows and Linux releases, so far, have been more plentiful and often than I think they ever were as a commercial product. The only difference now, is that you KNOW the difference between when a feature is added to sage, and when a release is made that includes it. Before, you didn't know that about a feature when Jeff would release the installers.

[Fuzzy]

Originally Posted by wayner

It sure seems to me like the future looks like a world where the server side of SageTV will be on Linux. For me there was no compelling reason to move from V7 with one exception- 64 bit JVM. That is not available in Windows and may not be for months, years or ever.

So why should I expect anything different with other new functionality that may be added to V9?

So if you want a system that can take advantage of new functionality as it is added the your best bet is to go to Linux for your server And it also seems that the main developers are all on Linux as well, so how much support will they be able to offer Windows users if they don't even use it?

And if you are using the upgrade as a catalyst to build a new server then you should really think about Linux.

I don't thing a single feature has been added that was Linux only (other than the 64-bit capability), that wasn't linux playing catch-up to the windows version. No developer here has any intention to limit sagetv to linux only, or even intends on developing linux only features. You read too much into the 64-bit issue, as a conscious decision to move away from windows - it is not - it is a result of the windows environment being exponentially more complicated to build for.

[EnterNoEscape]

Originally Posted by Taddeusz

Part of it might be that to really keep updated you have to set up a build environment.

It would be beneficial for there to be an automated build system when there's a commit to GitHub. Also being able to update the Sage.jar and STV from within SageTV would be very helpful towards making it more user friendly.

I'm an IT professional and developer so it was nothing for me to spin up a VM to handle builds. But otherwise I would have to wait weeks sometime months for Stuckless to update his Docker. Nothing against him, he does a great job with the time he has. But like everyone his time is limited.

Some automation and update ability would be great.

It wouldn't be a great deal of work to automate the Linux builds since they are already completely scripted, but the Windows builds from what I understand are still not completely script driven and unlike the Linux builds, they need to be done within a Windows OS which might make things even more difficult from a free service perspective.

Just building Sage.jar could be dangerous since sometimes changes in that code rely on changes in native code too. If a normal user is asked to test something outside of a normal release usually the developer will provide the relevant files.

[wayner]

Originally Posted by Fuzzy

I don't thing a single feature has been added that was Linux only (other than the 64-bit capability), that wasn't linux playing catch-up to the windows version. No developer here has any intention to limit sagetv to linux only, or even intends on developing linux only features. You read too much into the 64-bit issue, as a conscious decision to move away from windows - it is not - it is a result of the windows environment being exponentially more complicated to build for.

But that one feature is more important to me than anything else that has been added in V9 by an order of magnitude

My current V7 system, given my number of extenders, is unstable due to the max JVM heap size of 1GB. That is my biggest pain point in my current Sage install. That is not fixed in the current Windows version and my understanding is that no one has committed to taking that issue on. Narflex and Stuckless discussed this in a thread a week or two ago but as far as I know it is not being worked on, nor has anyone committed to working on it in the future.

[EnterNoEscape]

Originally Posted by Fuzzy

You read too much into the 64-bit issue, as a conscious decision to move away from windows - it is not - it is a result of the windows environment being exponentially more complicated to build for.

+1

Windows is a complete pain compared to Linux when it comes to interacting with hardware. The details involved in working with BDA devices is in my opinion ridiculous compared to V4L. I believe this is the biggest reason Windows has not reached 64-bit yet. Also, while I do now use Linux on my primary server (honestly because it's just easier to maintain), I still do a lot of my development testing on Windows for various reasons.

[wayner]

Ok, maybe I am reading too much into it. But if all of you guys are running Sage Docker on unRAID then that seems to me like the place to be to get the most support.

[Fuzzy]

Originally Posted by wayner

But that one feature is more important to me than anything else that has been added in V9 by an order of magnitude

My current V7 system, given my number of extenders, is unstable due to the max JVM heap size of 1GB. That is my biggest pain point in my current Sage install. That is not fixed in the current Windows version and my understanding is that no one has committed to taking that issue on. Narflex and Stuckless discussed this in a thread a week or two ago but as far as I know it is not being worked on, nor has anyone committed to working on it in the future.

Bear in mind that you have, for many years, been an outlier from the normal sagetv user, in your number of extenders in use. v9 has not removed any capability from you, and we did recommend quite a long time ago for you to switch to the unRAID version (which, even for non-programmers, is in many ways easier to setup and manage than a windows server).

[EnterNoEscape]

Originally Posted by wayner

But that one feature is more important to me than anything else that has been added in V9 by an order of magnitude

My current V7 system, given my number of extenders, is unstable due to the max JVM heap size of 1GB. That is my biggest pain point in my current Sage install. That is not fixed in the current Windows version and my understanding is that no one has committed to taking that issue on. Narflex and Stuckless discussed this in a thread a week or two ago but as far as I know it is not being worked on, nor has anyone committed to working on it in the future.

Someone actually was working on this. I noticed their fork mid last year and offered assistance since it looked like they might be stuck. They said they were ok so I left them alone. I haven't seen much since, but at least one person actually has been looking at the issue and it did not look simple. Also there have been many alternative ideas on how to resolve the 32-bit only Windows situation. Unfortunately they are all fairly massive undertakings, but would definitely solve the issues holding us back.

[Fuzzy]

unRAID should also be the primarily recommended platform for new users as well - not because it is Linux, or because that's what we like (I actually dispise Linux, and much prefer a windows environment) - but for doing the tasks a sagetv server does, it does it better, and at $60 or so, is cheaper than building a windows server.

[wayner]

I know I am an outlier but in my experience Sage starts to act up when there are as few as three extenders, plus a server UI. There are probably lots of folks with that many extenders.

[tvmaster2]

Originally Posted by Fuzzy

I still honestly, wanted to know where the idea came from that it was a different experience, because I want to fix that.

I would like to completely uninstall SageTV 7 from my system - everything (I've got an imaged drive, wiz.bin, properties etc., in case I need it).
What is the proper way to uninstall 7?

OK, took care of that, since my W7 Sage v7 install was so full of crap it had to be done. But here's an example of the difficulties and suspicions about v. 9
Now that I reinstalled a clean version 7, NONE of the usefull plugins I need, such as BMT, UPNP Browser, Sage Web Interface and Sage Mobile Web Interface can be installed because the Jetty link, etc are all dead links in the Sage TV V. 7 plugin repository.

I have little faith that any of these will work properly in V. 9, as I continue to read problems people have installing these plugins after they've upgraded.

Your thoughts on that, Fuzzy....

[tvmaster2]

Originally Posted by wayner

Maybe that view came from the fact that if you want V9 with the most improvements you should move to a Linux install as it isn't clear when (or if) the Windows version will be moving forward so that it is a fully 64 bit version. And Linux generally requires a bit more computer knowledge, especially when it comes to using the CLI. And it appears that most, if not all, of the developers of SageTV or running a Linux version, at least as their server.

That is why I decided to stop waiting for the Windows version and move to using unRAID as my server.

That may be true, as I ONLY am interested in a Windows 32 bit install, since I can't figure out how to get my USB UIRT to work, at all. So until someone can explain that to me, I need Firewire channel changing.
Are you still on Version 7 with a Windows install? If so, any idea how to get Jetty plugin installed? No one else seems to know how to do it now that the repository link is dead for V. 7

[Taddeusz]

Originally Posted by tvmaster2

That may be true, as I ONLY am interested in a Windows 32 bit install, since I can't figure out how to get my USB UIRT to work, at all. So until someone can explain that to me, I need Firewire channel changing.
Are you still on Version 7 with a Windows install? If so, any idea how to get Jetty plugin installed? No one else seems to know how to do it now that the repository link is dead for V. 7

I don't know why it wouldn't work. As long as you have the 64bit USB-UIRT drivers from their site it shouldn't be any different than when running 32bit Windows.

[Fuzzy]

Originally Posted by tvmaster2

I would like to completely uninstall SageTV 7 from my system - everything (I've got an imaged drive, wiz.bin, properties etc., in case I need it).
What is the proper way to uninstall 7?

OK, took care of that, since my W7 Sage v7 install was so full of crap it had to be done. But here's an example of the difficulties and suspicions about v. 9
Now that I reinstalled a clean version 7, NONE of the usefull plugins I need, such as BMT, UPNP Browser, Sage Web Interface and Sage Mobile Web Interface can be installed because the Jetty link, etc are all dead links in the Sage TV V. 7 plugin repository.

I have little faith that any of these will work properly in V. 9, as I continue to read problems people have installing these plugins after they've upgraded.

Your thoughts on that, Fuzzy....

It's exactly the contrary. The plugins are not installing BECAUSE you are using v7, which tries to get those plugins from sourceforge, which as of late has started flaking out on allowing sage to download the files. Most common plugins that were on sourceforge are now hosted on a different location for v9, so they should download and install perfectly fine. The community having direct control of the v9 plugin repository is what allowed us to fix this without depending on the original plugin authors or Narflex to fix the v7 repo.

[tvmaster2]

Originally Posted by Fuzzy

It's exactly the contrary. The plugins are not installing BECAUSE you are using v7, which tries to get those plugins from sourceforge, which as of late has started flaking out on allowing sage to download the files. Most common plugins that were on sourceforge are now hosted on a different location for v9, so they should download and install perfectly fine. The community having direct control of the v9 plugin repository is what allowed us to fix this without depending on the original plugin authors or Narflex to fix the v7 repo.

ok, then if that's the case, you posted a short description here a week or so ago about how to upgrade, and ive been looking for it but haven't found it again. if you remember the thread and post # that would be great. Now that I have a clean install of v.7, things should go well? I still intend to keep using the Sage EPG for a few months, so that's important to the upgrade process.
thanks

[Fuzzy]

Honestly, if you just did a 'clean install of v.7', it'd probably be simpler to blow it out again and install v.9 from scratch.

[tvmaster2]

Originally Posted by Fuzzy

Honestly, if you just did a 'clean install of v.7', it's probably be simpler to blow it out again and install v.9 from scratch.

ok. and that retains EPG for licensed users of 7. There was a fellow here who had created a Windows installer, would that be the best route?

[Fuzzy]

Originally Posted by tvmaster2

ok. and that retains EPG for licensed users of 7. There was a fellow here who had created a Windows installer, would that be the best route?

The windows installer is essentially the only proper route. The thread is stickied in the Open Source Downloads & Instructions forum.

If you want to use the SageTV EPG, then you enter the key in sage when you are configuring the source, though honestly, I'd take this opportunity to switch to schedules direct, since you'll need to in a few months anyway - save the hassle of setting sources up twice and just do it now.

[tvmaster2]

Originally Posted by Taddeusz

I don't know why it wouldn't work. As long as you have the 64bit USB-UIRT drivers from their site it shouldn't be any different than when running 32bit Windows.

I reinstalled my tuner, selecting USB UIRT as the device, and I can see it responding to the Hauppauge remote key presses, but that doesn't translate to any activity within Sage. There was a single device If I remember correctly, Motorola, under the UIRT, but I wasn't sure how that interfaced. The drivers installed fine, and W7 recognized the device as it should have.