Next gen HD300 replacement?

[samgreco]

I have had zero issues with Netflix on either the MiBox or the Shield.

[wayner]

Me too but the issues seems to be an HDCP handshaking issue between the MiBox and some brands of TVs. I don't think the Shield has this issue at all. At least one other person on these forums have experienced the issue. There is a thread on Reddit:
https://www.reddit.com/r/AndroidTV/c...fix_issue_fix/

[TwistedMelon]

Originally Posted by wayner

With a shield can't you use a Harmony set up to emulate a Bluetooth keyboard, which is a HID, like I describe in post 7? Same idea as a Flirc but no hardware required, assuming that you have a Harmony remote that has Bluetooth.

Yes, the Bluetooth Harmony Hub can pair with Shield and be controlled by their compatible remotes (Elite and Ultimate for example). While Shield can be controlled with keyboard HID events (usage page 7), all the codes from the original remote are actually from HID usage Page 12, Consumer codes. Not sure if Harmony does those codes. Flirc does some, but not all.

For example, while there are keyboard codes that works for BACK and HOME, those codes won't work to produce the long-press functions on Shield (Shut-Down/Sleep menu on BACK and Twitch settings on HOME). And may also not work for the double-press action, task switcher on HOME.

From what you say about the Shield it appears that the original Shield is of more value to SageTV users than the newer Shield. Is that the case? Any downside to the original Shield?

Number one downside is warranty, IMO. NV is pretty responsive with warranty claims and it would be a shame to lose that. The hardware is mostly the same with the bundles of components (in box) being different. The new regular Shield comes in a smaller enclosure. Rumors say the components inside are slightly different, but I can't find definitive proof and NV's specs indicate they're functionally the same apart from what's missing (IR and SD card slot).

I don't know how responsive actions are using the built-in IR receiver, so while it might be advantageous to not have to buy any type of dongle, in practise it might not be that useful. There are published "Shield" IR codes by NV available in the Harmony database for at least the basic controls.

The SD card slot is a wash, IMO, because USB is likely going to be faster access and using a hub you're not going to run short of ports.

The remote on the new ones uses 2x 2032 3v cell batteries where the older one requires plugging in to charge its built-in Li-Ion. Newer is an advantage, IMO.

[wayner]

Thanks Bruno - I was just wondering if it made sense to look for original Nvidia Shields on eBay for a good price. In terms of remotes, if you are using a Harmony any way, which it sounds like you are and I would be using a Harmony or Control4 remote, then I wouldn't even care about the remote that comes with the system.

[TwistedMelon]

I'm not using Harmony. I've had plenty of them over the years and not interested in going down that rabbit hole again.

I've been using a URC MX-980 since 2012 and just bought MX-5000 on eBay a couple of weeks ago as a replacement.

I found that using the MX-980 there was simply no way to control the Shield with any kind of acceptable responsiveness. Not when sending IR directly from the remote and not when triggering IR from the system controller it can speak to. In both cases to Flirc plugged into USB. I did verify that using a stand-alone remote, like TiVo produced acceptable results (though not as fast as NV's BT remote for rapid clicking)

So this new remote is WiFi with arbitrary IP control, so I plan to control a lot of stuff directly over the network, including future plans to set up a home automation hub/server. I'm anticipating the IR bugs affecting the older remote are remedied in this one so I can get at least the performance of the TiVo remote. Failing that, I'll continue to use the Shield remote for the time being until i can shim something else in the middle.

Using Control 4 you're already down the IP route - do you know if they have IP control over Shield? Unfortunately this requires getting keys from Google as the controller needs to be authenticated, so it's entirely possible with current IP automation platforms, but not something I'll be able to do even with my new old remote without some middleware.

[wayner]

I am not sure about IP control of the Shields. I think the recommended method is actually an IR-USB like this: https://www.video-storm.com/proddetail.asp?prod=irusb

Apparently that also works as an IR blaster to control other devices which is quite useful. And with Control4 and some of the more sophisticated drivers for apps like Plex and Kodi you can have a very good setup where you select the content in the C4 app on your phone/tablet/touchscreen. But you may pay $200 for the driver.

For the most part I have been a Harmony user for about 15 years - I am now on my 4th gen of remotes. I have them at each of the 9 TVs in my house. Almost all of them are now the hub based remotes that can be controlled via an API to a certain extent. That opens up interesting capabilities.

I have had C4 for about a decade but I haven't used it for media until recently. I am just starting to use it for AV and audio and that will likely be my future path, but it is more expensive as you generally need controllers plus remotes for each room, unless your components can be controlled by IP or you can get an IR signal to the room in other ways, like over Cat-5/6. So that costs you about $500/rm and it will likely have a lifespan of 7-8 years. (I have been buying up used stuff on ebay that is costing me about $200/rm but that will have a shorter lifespan).

The other reason to have a C4 controller in each room is for music playback although you don't need that if you have speakers in each room wired back to a central matrix amp or something like their Triad One. That is very slick and I am quite enjoying that. But when you have a centralized music system you start thinking about centralized video as well...

[TwistedMelon]

If I can hook up with someone that has some Arduino, HTTP and USB/HID software experience, I have an idea for a great mini-board solution (bring-up hardware already chosen) to provide IP/IR to USBHID connectivity to control pretty much anything. If I can figure out how to schedule some time, I might work on the user-facing UI and HTML/CSS/JS work for it and then seek someone out.

Centralized audio and video I already have to a degree, it's just about setting up a UI in every room it's to be consumed in. Portable/mobile is easy enough via iPeng for music (Logitech Music Server) and Plex for video. Integrating amplification and video display is the next step and something I'm working on now with the zone outputs of my AVP and some additional power amps, plus some hackery with IP-controlled relays and stand-alone amps and additional music players (my AVP only has 3 zones and I've already dedicated one of them to headphone use). If I need to go to kids bedrooms I'll look at a matrix switch, but for the most part I'd like to forgo that and just have them use the mobile devices from those rooms.

[wayner]

Originally Posted by TwistedMelon

If I can hook up with someone that has some Arduino, HTTP and USB/HID software experience, I have an idea for a great mini-board solution (bring-up hardware already chosen) to provide IP/IR to BT connectivity to control pretty much anything. If I can figure out how to schedule some time, I might work on the user-facing UI and HTML/CSS/JS work for it and then seek someone out.

That makes sense - I have often thought that with stuff like an Arduino or Pi-Zero-W that the hardware for an IP2IR solution is less than $20. But when you go to buy these they are often way north of $100 like the Global Cache IP2IR device or the Control4 products that allow you to do this.

I have been playing around writing some Control4 drivers to help with SageTV - I have an IP driver working well now that uses the SageTV web UI to control extenders and I am also working on using MCE Controller to give full integration with SageTV on PCs, including the ability to start the application.

To be honest - another solution is to use the Harmony Hub as your IP2IR or IP2BT device. I think you can get them for less than $100 from time to time.

[wayner]

Originally Posted by TwistedMelon

Centralized audio and video I already have to a degree, it's just about setting up a UI in every room it's to be consumed in. Portable/mobile is easy enough via iPeng for music (Logitech Music Server) and Plex for video.

Have you looked at Video Storm Net Play? Some of the C4 community quite like it.

[wayner]

@Bruno - the other thing you should work on is a multi-zone replacement for the USB-UIRT that works on all operating systems. The USB-UIRT doesn't work so well on Linux. This could probably be done with an Arduino or Pi, assuming that you could use multiple output channels - one for each zone.

[TwistedMelon]

Originally Posted by wayner

To be honest - another solution is to use the Harmony Hub as your IP2IR or IP2BT device. I think you can get them for less than $100 from time to time.

I just looked into it today to see if I could find a public API and luckily I found a project exposing simple GET/POST access. The main drawback is that there's no control over adding new content to Harmony's BT database, so you're limited to whatever they have and whatever they support. Keyboard stuff should be possible plus they have some profiles already set up for Shield and others - the additional drawback here is the info they received from NVIDIA is wrong so some buttons may not work everywhere.

I also can't seem to find any info about how many devices the hub can pair to simultaneously over BT.

In my previous reply I'd said IP/IR to BT, but that was a typo, as it should have been IP/IR to USBHID. More direct than BT and much simpler from a device perspective. Prototype-level (hobby) hardware would be $50-60 all-in for the boards needed. One would hope this could be done as an under $50 retail product if it ever went that way.

Seems like no one realizes that every single BT command the Shield is set up to use (and that works everywhere and in every app) is from the HID Consumer usage table. Harmony seems to constantly be tweaking to use one or another keyboard command (from the keyboard table) which will never duplicate exactly how the original remote works.

I looked at some of the Video Storm stuff in the past but I'm not sure they "get it" - or I don't get the angle they're shooting for. The Netplay product you mentioned - how much does it cost? It needs the central encoder and then one player per screen right? For less than $200 a Shield enables IP audio and video on any screen, not sure what anyone would want to distribute from one source that's encumbered with HDCP and doesn't have streaming (like a central bluray player?) Even for recording TV, a central server like Sage or TVHeadEnd will spit out content to any device on the network.

[wayner]

Originally Posted by TwistedMelon

I looked at some of the Video Storm stuff in the past but I'm not sure they "get it" - or I don't get the angle they're shooting for. The Netplay product you mentioned - how much does it cost? It needs the central encoder and then one player per screen right? For less than $200 a Shield enables IP audio and video on any screen, not sure what anyone would want to distribute from one source that's encumbered with HDCP and doesn't have streaming (like a central bluray player?) Even for recording TV, a central server like Sage or TVHeadEnd will spit out content to any device on the network.

The Video Storm Net Play is a "virtual" video matrix. It can take any digital stream and send it to receivers. It looks like they used to have proprietary receivers but they have now gone to AndroidTV devices. You may need encoders to take your HDMI sources and encode them to a video stream - these devices seem to be the same as the BM-1000/3000 devices that some folks are now using as encoders for SageTV.

But this raises the question - if you have an AndroidTV devices like a Shield then why do you need a centralized solution since the Shield can do almost everything you want locally. The main thing missing would be tune cable TV so this could be a way to reduce the number of Cable TV boxes that you need.

I got into an argument on the Control4 forum just this week over this issue. But the folks that have it say stuff like "you don't get it - a centralized solution lets you have synchronized video in multiple rooms which is great for a Super Bowl party, and you can start a program in one place and stop it in another.

We have most of that with SageTV extenders (or Shields) so if you are using SageTV there is little benefit. Apparently you can do stuff with overlays that are cool and you can build video walls if you are into that. You can also stream everything to Android devices. But you are looking at over $1000 even for just a few TVs and sources. But that is way cheaper than your traditional video matrix solutions and it doesn't required HDMI or dedicated CAT-5 cabling as it goes over your standard LAN.

You could probably come up with a way to use SageTV in conjunction with Net Play. You need your SageTV to send out a video stream that works in Net Play but that is probably doable. But then you would need a way to choose your content as you wouldn't have a Sage UI on your screen -kind of like you can use the SageTV web UI today and click on "Play this file in Bedroom".

[TwistedMelon]

Yup, Sage software can already do most of that with a central tuning/recording server. And up here in Canada, TV companies have been offering central tuning/recording hubs with thin TV clients for a while now. They suck, but they're available.

I've been following on and off the big media control/integration players like URC and RTI since the early 2000's. To a lesser extent Control 4, but I remember when they first came to market and spent quite a while at their booth at CES 2005. Much of what these guys are doing is mind-numbingly backwards and convoluted. And the whole dealer-only protection racket is a big reason why very little has advanced in the past 15 years in consumer home automation.

But at least they do have some form of automation - Everyone else doing consumer stuff is focusing on small potatoes and now people think having some bluetooth lightbulbs is home automation when all they're doing is super manual and super tedious remote control. Leads me to a whole other rant about Apple's Homekit and again the vast assortment of orphaned supposed "smart" devices.

The market is all over the place right now and after a couple of months of research, the most complete, extensible and intuitive product I've been able to find, is only available outside North America (Athom's Homey).

[will]

Originally Posted by photon

I'm also feeling the need to get with the program and move beyond HD300. It seems that I'll have to jump in with both feet and wing it.

What is the reason for the change/upgrade? I ask because you might be better off with a stop gap method (like getting a Chromecast) and a wait-and-see approach to see where everything is going in the world of video. 4k or 8k is going to be the future (no HD300) but that is still a ways off and who knows how the app world is going to change. I just can't imagine in 10 years we will be having to load individual apps to find or watch content - I'm sure a streaming DVR like interface is right around the corner that will emulate cable, e.g., currently I subscribe to HBO but I don't necessarily tune into HBO to watch Game of Thrones, I go through my DVR (SageTV).

I have been using the Mini Client on a kitchen Android tablet and I miss the Windows Client I used in my old kitchen. I wish I had purchased a $700 Windows 10 tablet instead of the $300 Android Tablet. I've never used the Mini Client on anything other than the tablet and I find it really impressive but still a little buggy - like some OTA recordings don't play and the interface will have minor glitches, plus I don't have IR so I'm still searching for a good remote solution.

[mackb]

I have uploaded a FLIRC configuration for those that use a Mi Box or Shield TV and want to use the original HD300 remote control.

I have highly tweaked it and it has been in use for quite some time.

It doesn't have every single button from the bottom of the remote mapped, though.

Enjoy,
Mack

[photon]

Originally Posted by will

What is the reason for the change/upgrade? I ask because you might be better off with a stop gap method (like getting a Chromecast) and a wait-and-see approach to see where everything is going in the world of video.

I only started looking because I have family in another state who are just starting with SageTV and they need hardware which is hard to find now. Antenna is what they have. Cable is not available. Satellite too expensive. Internet speed I saw was maxing at 3mbps ADSL which is below the recommendations for streaming boxes. So a HD300 or android device that can run sageTV is of interest.

Looking at the android option for SageTV has peaked my interest in trying out streaming for myself. I'm curious what I am missing. I want to keep using SageTV as my DVR though. I don't like switching HDMI inputs and remotes to use multiple devices. Currently my Yamaha receiver remote controls everything including HD300.

[wayner]

For those family members you might want to try to be used HD200/HD300s as one of the few drawbacks with the Android clients is that it can have trouble with MPEG-2 content. And if their internet speed is that low then they won't get much benefit of the streaming services that an AndroidTV box would provide.

[will]

Originally Posted by photon

I don't like switching HDMI inputs and remotes to use multiple devices. Currently my Yamaha receiver remote controls everything including HD300.

I am the exact same way. I hate changing sources and having multiple remotes.

I integrated a streaming device (3rd gen Apple TV) into my SageTV system via a HD-PVR. So when I want to watch Netflix I tune into channel 2000 (the channel I setup for my HD-PVR source) and use my phone to select what to watch.

It has some benefits like pausing and rewinding is super smooth and I can record what I am streaming and finish it later or on another TV without much effort. Also, if you are watching something that has forced commercials, like something from the Fox or ABC app, you can start the recording, pause it for a few minutes then you can skip through commercials like normal (comskip even works).

The only real downside is that you have to use a phone/tablet to find content (which I actually prefer) and you have to tune into a channel (but any solution requires some type of tuning - an app or a source change).

[wayner]

What's the big deal about changing sources? It can be a bit slow and take a few seconds but if you are only doing it occasionally it isn't a big deal.

My main HT room a ton of sources - HD300, cable box, TV source for OTA or smart TV apps, Xbox One, Xbox 360, Wii, Nintendo Switch, HTPC, Control4 controller.

A Harmony remote ties it all together although I am moving towards using Control4 to do all of this since it has more flexibility.

But I do agree that having multiple sources can add to the complexity - I don't want my 84 year old mom to have more than one source. But as long as you know what you are doing that isn't a big deal.

[will]

Originally Posted by wayner

What's the big deal about changing sources? It can be a bit slow and take a few seconds but if you are only doing it occasionally it isn't a big deal.

I agree but it can get old fast in the following scenarios:

1. I use a sound bar that I keep set at 100% volume so I can control the volume through SageTV. If I change the input source I then have to also adjust the sound bar volume to something reasonable.
2. I use a Sonos Playbar with a sub and satellite speakers. The Playbar only allows one optical input so now if I want multiple sources I have to use my TV as the optical output (which sucks because most TVs only output stereo - 5.1/7.1 in through HDMI and stereo out with the optical out). Otherwise, I have to buy an optical switcher which requires another remote.

I tried using the Harmony 650 and I hated it - the remote just feels stiff and not nearly as responsive. I still think Tivo makes the best feeling and sized remotes to this day.

Keeping everything in one device does make things easier.