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-   -   STP-HD200 Automatic license detect with Sage V6.5 or higher? (http://forums.sagetv.com/forums/showthread.php?t=37312)

dravenone 12-02-2008 01:40 PM

STP-HD200 Automatic license detect with Sage V6.5 or higher?
 
The announcement thread for the HD200 states automatic license detection is supported in v6.5 or higher. Is this correct or a typo? If it's correct then I will skip v6.4 and wait for v6.5.


"When connected to a SageTV server, no license needs to be entered on the server. The STP-HD200 will automatically be recognized as a valid SageTV extender. (Note: Automatic license detection requires SageTV version 6.5 or higher.)"

Opus4 12-02-2008 01:41 PM

Yes... that's what I posted. :)

v6.5 is in the beta forum.

- Andy

QueOnda 12-02-2008 02:02 PM

What about with the 100? Also, what if I don't want to upgrade to 6.5?

Opus4 12-02-2008 02:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by QueOnda (Post 318551)
What about with the 100?

Nothing has changed about the HD100... besides, if you bought an HD100, it came with the license it needs.

Quote:

Also, what if I don't want to upgrade to 6.5?
You mean for the HD200? As I said in the HD200 announcement post: Automatic license detection requires SageTV version 6.5 or higher. So for v6.4, you would need an extender license on the server.

Version 6.5 is strongly recommended when using the HD200 anyway.

- Andy

reggie14 12-02-2008 07:02 PM

So, does the HD200 come with a license, even though you don't need to enter it? If not, then I assume that you would actually need a placeshifter license to run a placeshifter client- an unused HD200 wouldn't work anymore. Presumably the old extender licenses will function as placeshifter licenses though.

flavius 12-02-2008 10:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Opus4 (Post 318568)
Version 6.5 is strongly recommended when using the HD200 anyway.

- Andy

What does that mean? What doesn't work with the 6.4 release version?

Opus4 12-02-2008 10:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by flavius (Post 318699)
What doesn't work with the 6.4 release version?

Automatic license detection for one thing. I'm not sure what else, but if you run into a problem you'll be asked to try v6.5 to see if the issue is still there.

Oh, btw: the automatic license detection applies to using the HD200 in placeshifter mode too. Not sure if that was clear earlier.

- Andy

reggie14 12-02-2008 10:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Opus4 (Post 318705)
Oh, btw: the automatic license detection applies to using the HD200 in placeshifter mode too. Not sure if that was clear earlier.

It doesn't quite address my question. It seems like the licenses could work two different ways. Either 1) the Sage server merely recognizes an H200 is connecting to it. Or 2) the H200 automatically uploads an extender license key to the server when it (first) connects. The second method implies that a regular software Placeshifter client could connect instead of the H200 (without buying an additional license). But, I assume it works more like method 1).

Obviously there's a change in how licensing works. I'm just kind of curious what exactly that change is, and how it impacts people's setups.

flavius 12-02-2008 11:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Opus4 (Post 318705)
Automatic license detection for one thing. I'm not sure what else, but if you run into a problem you'll be asked to try v6.5 to see if the issue is still there.

Oh, btw: the automatic license detection applies to using the HD200 in placeshifter mode too. Not sure if that was clear earlier.

- Andy

I knew that Sage is a tiny shop, but that all Extender customers are beta junkies was news to me.

Opus4 12-02-2008 11:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by reggie14 (Post 318711)
I'm just kind of curious what exactly that change is, and how it impacts people's setups.

I'm not going to try stating any details about how it works. Rewording what I've already said: the HD200 is automatically recognized as a valid SageTV client/extender w/o entering a license on the server when using v6.5 & later. If there is no license involved when the unit is in use, there is no license involved when the unit is not in use.

- Andy

Narflex 12-03-2008 12:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by flavius (Post 318713)
I knew that Sage is a tiny shop, but that all Extender customers are beta junkies was news to me.

We don't plan on it being in beta for much longer. :) (we'll have another beta out today which should close out most of the issues; so it'll go release in hopefully another week or two at the most)

flavius 12-03-2008 07:26 PM

Thanks, for the info, Narflex.

rswoods 12-03-2008 09:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Opus4 (Post 318716)
...the HD200 is automatically recognized as a valid SageTV client/extender w/o entering a license on the server when using v6.5 & later.

- Andy

Just so I understand, if we want to use an hd200 with Sage, we either have to use the 6.5 beta or purchase a client license?

Thanks

Opus4 12-03-2008 09:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rswoods (Post 318970)
Just so I understand, if we want to use an hd200 with Sage, we either have to use the 6.5 beta or purchase a client license?

Yes, unless you already have an extender license. Note that it is a placeshifter or extender license, though I think the store calls it a client license for an MVP; SageTV Client is a different type of license.

If you are a new user: just start with v6.5, in my opinion. it is getting close to release and should work just fine. Or, if you want to use a Placeshifter client on a PC at a remote location anyway, buy that and it will double as a license you can use with the HD200 for v6.4 when the placeshifter client isn't in use.

- Andy

LehighBri 12-04-2008 06:56 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dravenone (Post 318538)
"When connected to a SageTV server, no license needs to be entered on the server. The STP-HD200 will automatically be recognized as a valid SageTV extender. (Note: Automatic license detection requires SageTV version 6.5 or higher.)"

Can someone explain how that works? Does the extender figure it out based on the MAC address? Does it take the MAC address and call out to Sage's license servers somewhere to verify? Sounds odd for me for it to figure it out on it's own (unless of course you just assume using the hardware inherently means you bought it and are licensed to use it).

voidpt 12-04-2008 07:17 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by LehighBri (Post 319043)
Can someone explain how that works? Does the extender figure it out based on the MAC address? Does it take the MAC address and call out to Sage's license servers somewhere to verify? Sounds odd for me for it to figure it out on it's own (unless of course you just assume using the hardware inherently means you bought it and are licensed to use it).

I don't think you are going to get an answer to this. And if someone figured out the small/excact details, it would probably be deleted anyway. Just be happy the SageTV made some logic that eliminates the bother about a license key. I think you are close with your MAC address / hardware identification. Its probably some fingerprint that the SageTV server queries or gets automaticly that makes the SageTV server recognise the HD200 as a valid client, without needing to 'deduct' one Placeshifter license on the server. Hence the need for 6.5.x, because this logic is not in 6.4.x. Were you will need a valid Placeshifter license on the server.

Don't worry, be happy ;)

Unless you are worried about 'call-home' stuff. Don't think SageTV would risk enraging this community with a product that did that kind of stuff. And if it does, it will probably only be the license stuff. And nothing more. Easy to test if anyone has the time. Install the licenses with only local LAN, and no Internet. Either it works or it doesn't.

flavius 12-04-2008 05:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by voidpt (Post 319044)
Its probably some fingerprint that the SageTV server queries or gets automaticly that makes the SageTV server recognise the HD200 as a valid client.

..
Case HD200
.........LICENSED=TRUE
Case closed

:)

stanger89 12-04-2008 08:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by LehighBri (Post 319043)
Can someone explain how that works? Does the extender figure it out based on the MAC address? Does it take the MAC address and call out to Sage's license servers somewhere to verify? Sounds odd for me for it to figure it out on it's own (unless of course you just assume using the hardware inherently means you bought it and are licensed to use it).

The extender doesn't do anything. Just plug it in, and it works, nothing special.

Now, if you want to use it in a SageTV system, that's when licenses are involved. The SageTV server (software running on the PC) requires extenders to be licensed. It started with the Hauppauge Media MVP where you needed a separate license because the hardware could be purchased through SageTV (which included a license in the price, compensating SageTV for their development efforts) or somewhere else (in which case SageTV wouldn't be compensated). That same model was carried on with the STX-HD100.

It appears with the STP-HD200, Sage realized it was silly to require people to enter keys for hardware that can only be purchased through SageTV, so they've done away with the requirment for the user to enter a key on the SageTV server to use the STP-HD200.

Seems we're making it more difficult with than it has to be. 6.5 (being under development) was changed to not require an extender key when it detects an STP-HD200. 6.4, which had previously been released and "locked down" didn't get that update so just treats the HD200 like the HD100 (ie extender == license required).

reggie14 12-04-2008 09:09 PM

I do work with crypto protocols, so things like this interest me. But, I doubt Sage does anything too complicated. You could imagine some sort of challenge-response system, where the server issues a random string and the extender digitally signs it and returns it to the server for verification, but I highly doubt they do that. You can tell that there's a handshake when an extender connects to a server, where the extender identifies itself and what file types its capable of playing back. Sage probably just trusts that a device identifying itself as an HD200 is actually an HD200.

Why would you need to do anything else? What are they concerned about? Someone reverse engineering the protocol and emulating it on a Popcorn Hour? I suppose that would be possible, but considering they're basically the same price as the HD200 I don't see why it would be worth the effort.

I don't particularly care that Sage changed the licensing structure. It never particularly made sense that extender and placeshifter licenses were the same thing. But, it was sort of nice for users.

stanger89 12-04-2008 09:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by reggie14 (Post 319299)
Sage probably just trusts that a device identifying itself as an HD200 is actually an HD200.

Why would you need to do anything else? What are they concerned about?

That was kind of my thought. Sage doesn't support any DRM (so far) so there's no need for robust security.

Quote:

Someone reverse engineering the protocol and emulating it on a Popcorn Hour? I suppose that would be possible, but considering they're basically the same price as the HD200 I don't see why it would be worth the effort.
And Sage has always been open to users extending the capabilities of Sage on other devices. The Hauppauge Media MVP was initially supported by a community-created plugin.

Quote:

I don't particularly care that Sage changed the licensing structure. It never particularly made sense that extender and placeshifter licenses were the same thing. But, it was sort of nice for users.
Actually as far a licenses go, the only one that really stands out at "odd" is the Client license, everything else is per-seat. But Client is (I think) largely historical, it existed before Placeshifter.


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