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  #1  
Old 05-07-2016, 10:16 PM
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tvmaster2 tvmaster2 is offline
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ongoing Windows 10 Update offer - does it cause problems?k

Running a W7 SageTV server with version 7 Sage. That W10 Update offer keeps popping up, almost daily. I haven't decided whether I want to upgrade my server to W10, as W7 seems to do what it needs to do.
Question: does the W10 update message mess things up for anyone? Cause recordings or playback to skip, stutter, or make things unwatchable to the point having to restart the server?
My system has been getting a little flakey, and nothing else make sense.
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Sage 9 server = Gigabyte AMD quad-core - 4 gigs - integrated ATI HD4200 chipset - SSD boot, Hitachi Deskstar show drives. HD-PVR - Colossus - Win7 32 bit. HD200/300ís networked. HDHomerun tuner. "If you've given up on Weird Al, you've given up on life" - Homer Simpson
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  #2  
Old 05-07-2016, 11:10 PM
samgreco samgreco is offline
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Yes. It will update itself at some point. No matter how many times you tell it no. You turn around and find it updating itself.

I recommend (if you absolutely don't want W10) using GWX Control Panel to stop it from popping up and stopping any further updates. I wrote up a quick instruction on my website on it here: http://thebitwrangler.com/content/ha...e-you-shouldnt

And I have had a quite few customers that have had issues after upgrading.
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  #3  
Old 05-08-2016, 12:05 AM
JustFred JustFred is offline
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I currently have 3 different Win7 Sage7 servers running for over 5 years. Ordinarily they'll stay up for many, many months without any issues.

But about 6 months ago, one of the Sage servers suddenly became noticeably less stable. This started right after I let it do an annual Windows Update circus. After the updates, the entire system (OS) would crash every couple of weeks, for no apparent reason. The Windows event log provided no hints.

After removing 3 or 4 of the KBs having to do with Win10 "telemetry" (which involve periodic reports to MS), the system has been returned to it's old reliable self. I'm a lot more careful now about which KB's I permit to be installed.
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System #1: Win7-64, I7-920, 8 GB mem, 4TB HD. Java-64 1.8.0_141. Sage-64 v9.2.1 ATSC: 2x HDHR-US (1st gen white) tuners. HD-200.
System #2: Win7-64, I7-920, 8 GB mem, 4TB HD. Java 1.8.0_131. Sage v9.1.6.747. ClearQAM: 2x HDHR3-US tuners. HD-200.
System #3: Win7-64, I7-920, 12 GB mem, 4TB HD. Java-64 1.8.0_141. Sage-64 v9.2.1 ATSC: 2x HVR2250; Spectrum Cable via HDPVR & USB-UIRT. 3x HD-200.
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  #4  
Old 05-08-2016, 08:20 AM
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tvmaster2 tvmaster2 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JustFred View Post
I currently have 3 different Win7 Sage7 servers running for over 5 years. Ordinarily they'll stay up for many, many months without any issues.

But about 6 months ago, one of the Sage servers suddenly became noticeably less stable. This started right after I let it do an annual Windows Update circus. After the updates, the entire system (OS) would crash every couple of weeks, for no apparent reason. The Windows event log provided no hints.

After removing 3 or 4 of the KBs having to do with Win10 "telemetry" (which involve periodic reports to MS), the system has been returned to it's old reliable self. I'm a lot more careful now about which KB's I permit to be installed.
I guess I need to go back and read all this KB's? What's the indicator they're associated with W10?
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Sage 9 server = Gigabyte AMD quad-core - 4 gigs - integrated ATI HD4200 chipset - SSD boot, Hitachi Deskstar show drives. HD-PVR - Colossus - Win7 32 bit. HD200/300ís networked. HDHomerun tuner. "If you've given up on Weird Al, you've given up on life" - Homer Simpson
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  #5  
Old 05-08-2016, 09:06 AM
JustFred JustFred is offline
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The telemetry KBs that I removed are: KB2952664, KB2976978 & KB3123862. There may be others, too. MS doesn't make it obvious as to their exact purpose. There have been several online articles published by InfoWorld, SuperSite (and others) about the issues with buggy and intrusive Win10 telemetry KBs.

In order to stop the above KBs from repeatedly being installed behind my back, I discovered it was necessary to select "Never check for updates". For whatever twisted reason, selecting "Check for updates but let me choose whether to download and install them" still allowed some automatic updates.

I use the GWX Control Panel on all my non-Sage windows boxes (where updates haven't been completely disabled), although I'm unclear about how thorough it is with catching all the KBs. I know it does catch & kill KB3035583 (the Win10 king of all bloatware which deposited 6-10GB of junk on my already full SSD).
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System #1: Win7-64, I7-920, 8 GB mem, 4TB HD. Java-64 1.8.0_141. Sage-64 v9.2.1 ATSC: 2x HDHR-US (1st gen white) tuners. HD-200.
System #2: Win7-64, I7-920, 8 GB mem, 4TB HD. Java 1.8.0_131. Sage v9.1.6.747. ClearQAM: 2x HDHR3-US tuners. HD-200.
System #3: Win7-64, I7-920, 12 GB mem, 4TB HD. Java-64 1.8.0_141. Sage-64 v9.2.1 ATSC: 2x HVR2250; Spectrum Cable via HDPVR & USB-UIRT. 3x HD-200.
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  #6  
Old 05-08-2016, 09:26 AM
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tvmaster2 tvmaster2 is offline
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great, thanks for the info. I don't have anything personal against updating to W10, since it's free until July 29, but I haven't read a lot on this forum about W10 and Sage v7.
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Sage 9 server = Gigabyte AMD quad-core - 4 gigs - integrated ATI HD4200 chipset - SSD boot, Hitachi Deskstar show drives. HD-PVR - Colossus - Win7 32 bit. HD200/300ís networked. HDHomerun tuner. "If you've given up on Weird Al, you've given up on life" - Homer Simpson
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  #7  
Old 05-08-2016, 09:36 AM
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Skirge01 Skirge01 is offline
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Every update I do, I check this site to verify which KBs are unsafe and hide those, installing the rest of the updates.

Then, I run GWX Control Panel and make sure that utility says I'm still good.

It sucks, is a bit tedious, and seriously repetitive, but it's the price I pay for not learning Linux... or choosing to play games on the PC.
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Server: XP, SuperMicro X9SAE-V, i7 3770T, Thermalright Archon SB-E, 32GB Corsair DDR3, 2 x IBM M1015, Corsair HX1000W PSU, CoolerMaster CM Storm Stryker case
Storage: 2 x Addonics 5-in-3 3.5" bays, 1 x Addonics 4-in-1 2.5" bay, 24TB
Client: Windows 7 64-bit, Foxconn G9657MA-8EKRS2H, Core2Duo E6600, Zalman CNPS7500, 2GB Corsair, 320GB, HIS ATI 4650, Antec Fusion
Tuners: 2 x HD-PVR (HTTP tuning), 2 x HDHR, USB-UIRT
Software: SageTV 7
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  #8  
Old 05-08-2016, 12:21 PM
JustFred JustFred is offline
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"Hiding" a given KB # isn't as effective as one might think. MS has been known to (re)release various versions of some of their KB #s. So hiding a particular KB# (once) doesn't automatically prevent a newer version of that same KB# from being downloaded & installed again.

As a corollary to the above, subsequent installations of the same KB# effectively "eclipse" the older version in the list of installed updates. That means removing a given KB (by it's KB #) doesn't automatically remove all versions of that KB# in a single pass. I've found that after removal, it's necessary to reboot and recheck for the presence of that KB# in the list of installed updates. Lather, rinse, repeat.

The hassle with updates is one of the reasons I only update my Sage boxes once a year. They're dedicated to only running the Sage server service and are never used interactively, having a low probability of continuously needing MS's latest security patches.
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System #1: Win7-64, I7-920, 8 GB mem, 4TB HD. Java-64 1.8.0_141. Sage-64 v9.2.1 ATSC: 2x HDHR-US (1st gen white) tuners. HD-200.
System #2: Win7-64, I7-920, 8 GB mem, 4TB HD. Java 1.8.0_131. Sage v9.1.6.747. ClearQAM: 2x HDHR3-US tuners. HD-200.
System #3: Win7-64, I7-920, 12 GB mem, 4TB HD. Java-64 1.8.0_141. Sage-64 v9.2.1 ATSC: 2x HVR2250; Spectrum Cable via HDPVR & USB-UIRT. 3x HD-200.
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  #9  
Old 05-08-2016, 12:33 PM
trallyus trallyus is offline
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Steve Gibson wrote a program called Never10 in case you want a simple way to avoid updating to Windows 10 -

Link is https://www.grc.com/never10.htm
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  #10  
Old 05-08-2016, 06:35 PM
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Skirge01 Skirge01 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JustFred View Post
"Hiding" a given KB # isn't as effective as one might think. MS has been known to (re)release various versions of some of their KB #s. So hiding a particular KB# (once) doesn't automatically prevent a newer version of that same KB# from being downloaded & installed again.
You're right, but that's the reason I mentioned that I run GWX Control Panel afterwards. If that says I'm still "safe" from W10, then I feel pretty confident. However, are you implying that KB list I linked to is outdated? If so, can you provide a link to a more recent one?

Personally, I couldn't imagine going through hundreds of updates in one session, having to verify each KB via the MS site. While I may not use my Sage server for anything but Sage, I believe I'm more secure having the latest updates. I feel my method is "good enough" for my scenario.
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Server: XP, SuperMicro X9SAE-V, i7 3770T, Thermalright Archon SB-E, 32GB Corsair DDR3, 2 x IBM M1015, Corsair HX1000W PSU, CoolerMaster CM Storm Stryker case
Storage: 2 x Addonics 5-in-3 3.5" bays, 1 x Addonics 4-in-1 2.5" bay, 24TB
Client: Windows 7 64-bit, Foxconn G9657MA-8EKRS2H, Core2Duo E6600, Zalman CNPS7500, 2GB Corsair, 320GB, HIS ATI 4650, Antec Fusion
Tuners: 2 x HD-PVR (HTTP tuning), 2 x HDHR, USB-UIRT
Software: SageTV 7
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  #11  
Old 05-08-2016, 06:55 PM
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KryptoNyte KryptoNyte is offline
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I don't know if this helps the OP here, but I've found that the easiest solution to the Windows 10 forced update fiasco is;

1) Keep a few solid backup images of the Windows 7 SageTV Server on media that gets disconnected when not in use,
2) Turn Windows Updates off completely.

I updated a tablet a while back, and with my morning routine of watching the news, I was reasonably disappointed when Windows 10 decided to do an update without my permission, and then rebooted the tablet to continue the update, which took about 20 minutes, or equivalent to the time that I would have been using the machine that morning. How that is viewed as forward progress is a mystery.

It does leave me wondering ... does Windows 10 force updates/reboots when a SageTV server is recording a TV program?
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  #12  
Old 05-08-2016, 07:16 PM
nyplayer nyplayer is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KryptoNyte View Post
I don't know if this helps the OP here, but I've found that the easiest solution to the Windows 10 forced update fiasco is;

1) Keep a few solid backup images of the Windows 7 SageTV Server on media that gets disconnected when not in use,
2) Turn Windows Updates off completely.

I updated a tablet a while back, and with my morning routine of watching the news, I was reasonably disappointed when Windows 10 decided to do an update without my permission, and then rebooted the tablet to continue the update, which took about 20 minutes, or equivalent to the time that I would have been using the machine that morning. How that is viewed as forward progress is a mystery.

It does leave me wondering ... does Windows 10 force updates/reboots when a SageTV server is recording a TV program?
If you do not want windows 10 to update just disable the "Windows Update" service and enable it when you want to check and Install updates when SageTV is not scheduled to record... and you have time. You can also do the same with W7.

All my machines are now Windows 10 and I even have SageTV server and WMC Installed... on my Server.
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Windows 10 I3 Dual Core 3.0 Server, SageTV9... OpenDCT with 2 HDHRPrimes and 4 HDHRconnects for a total of 14 Tuners.

Last edited by nyplayer; 05-08-2016 at 07:23 PM.
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  #13  
Old 05-08-2016, 07:39 PM
samgreco samgreco is offline
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The problem with letting updates build up to 50, 60 or 100, is that if something breaks, it's really hard to track back and figure it out. Plus, there really are legitimate security updates happening fairly often. And I've seen enough breaches out there to not mess around with security updates.
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  #14  
Old 05-08-2016, 07:44 PM
nyplayer nyplayer is offline
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Originally Posted by samgreco View Post
The problem with letting updates build up to 50, 60 or 100, is that if something breaks, it's really hard to track back and figure it out. Plus, there really are legitimate security updates happening fairly often. And I've seen enough breaches out there to not mess around with security updates.
I see no problem if you do not use the Server for browsing or paying bills etc...
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Old 05-08-2016, 07:52 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nyplayer View Post
If you do not want windows 10 to update just disable the "Windows Update" service and enable it when you want to check and Install updates when SageTV is not scheduled to record... and you have time. You can also do the same with W7.

All my machines are now Windows 10 and I even have SageTV server and WMC Installed... on my Server.
Why would one take a machine that currently runs with little to no user intervention, and add a requirement for more user intervention?

Again, I'm not sure if this helps the OP, but the concept is clear.
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  #16  
Old 05-08-2016, 07:56 PM
nyplayer nyplayer is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KryptoNyte View Post
Why would one take a machine that currently runs with little to no user intervention, and add a requirement for more user intervention?

Again, I'm not sure if this helps the OP, but the concept is clear.
You must have your Sever to download and Install updates automatically and reboot that is the only way not to have any user intervention.
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  #17  
Old 05-08-2016, 07:57 PM
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Originally Posted by nyplayer View Post
I see no problem if you do not use the Server for browsing or paying bills etc...
Okay, if you're using your SageTV server to login to encrypted, financial based websites, I could see the need for and update to Windows 10.
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  #18  
Old 05-08-2016, 08:00 PM
nyplayer nyplayer is offline
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Originally Posted by KryptoNyte View Post
Okay, if you're using your SageTV server to login to encrypted, financial based websites, I could see the need for and update to Windows 10.
Yeah I have a few users that I support that I will have to pry and upgrade their PC to Windows 10 over their dead body (Then they would not need the upgrade). ... I just stated that the only way to really stop updates from downloading is to completely stop the service... just offering another option.
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Last edited by nyplayer; 05-08-2016 at 08:02 PM.
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  #19  
Old 05-08-2016, 08:04 PM
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KryptoNyte KryptoNyte is offline
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That is true NYP. Going back to the basics, SageTV was never meant to be a system bent on limitation, but rather to provide a system that would flex to the needs of any user.
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  #20  
Old 05-08-2016, 08:34 PM
JustFred JustFred is offline
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Originally Posted by Skirge01 View Post
... are you implying that KB list I linked to is outdated? If so, can you provide a link to a more recent one?
No, I didn't mean to imply anything about that list. Sorry for the confusion. I don't currently have a single go-to place to get a complete list. Would love to find one, but it seems to be a never-ending case of whack-a-mole with MS.

As much as I like the GWX Control Panel, there's still a level of "fear of the unknown". The webpage says only ".. removes files and background tasks known to cause Windows 10 upgrade symptoms" without providing a specific list of exactly what that encompasses or what KBs it looks for. Haven't seen any indication that **it** phones home to update it's internal list of badware. It's had 5 updates published since the first of this year, implying it's not a simple install-once-and-forget-it kind of thing.

I haven't yet had a compelling reason to capitulate to MS' increasingly strong-arm tactics and replace my perfectly-functional, exceptionally stable Win7's with the constantly-changing, half-baked, always-updating, super-snoopy Win10. There are still too many down sides to counter "but it's free!".

So it goes.
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System #1: Win7-64, I7-920, 8 GB mem, 4TB HD. Java-64 1.8.0_141. Sage-64 v9.2.1 ATSC: 2x HDHR-US (1st gen white) tuners. HD-200.
System #2: Win7-64, I7-920, 8 GB mem, 4TB HD. Java 1.8.0_131. Sage v9.1.6.747. ClearQAM: 2x HDHR3-US tuners. HD-200.
System #3: Win7-64, I7-920, 12 GB mem, 4TB HD. Java-64 1.8.0_141. Sage-64 v9.2.1 ATSC: 2x HVR2250; Spectrum Cable via HDPVR & USB-UIRT. 3x HD-200.
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