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  #141  
Old 05-17-2009, 05:24 PM
paulbeers paulbeers is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fiatmonkey View Post
Hi Everyone,

This is a great thread and wonderful info. My HD100 is still going strong however I don't know the purchase date as I got it 2nd hand. So I sort of feel like one of those replicants from Blade Runner not knowing when I will croak...

I have noticed slow screen navigation lately both during the HD100 setup screen and during extender usage.

-FM
No one has stated any issue with slowness caused by this issue. Most likely you have maxed out your java heap or are experiencing a network issue.
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  #142  
Old 05-18-2009, 01:37 AM
fac13 fac13 is offline
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It is indeed a useful thread. I feel it would have been helpful if Sage had published the information themselves though.
  #143  
Old 05-18-2009, 08:48 AM
mtyme mtyme is offline
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Originally Posted by reggie14 View Post
Have you opened the HD100 up and inspected the caps? I think it would be good to confirm which capacitors are and are not bulging, and which ones are hissing. It's been pretty consistent thus far, but most people haven't looked at their boards.
It died over the weekend. I don't have the flashing light like some of you, it just doesn't work - I don't have video anymore and the hissing has stopped. 2 of the 3 caps on the power supply board were bulging on the top, I'm assuming that's what you all are talking about.
  #144  
Old 05-18-2009, 10:15 AM
reggie14 reggie14 is offline
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Originally Posted by mtyme View Post
It died over the weekend. I don't have the flashing light like some of you, it just doesn't work - I don't have video anymore and the hissing has stopped. 2 of the 3 caps on the power supply board were bulging on the top, I'm assuming that's what you all are talking about.
Interesting. Has anyone else not gotten the flashing power light when their HD100 stopped working?
  #145  
Old 05-18-2009, 07:48 PM
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cgreenle cgreenle is offline
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Originally Posted by reggie14 View Post
Interesting. Has anyone else not gotten the flashing power light when their HD100 stopped working?
Yes.

I didn't have any noticeable bulging caps but I did check the four diodes in the bridge rectifier circuit and two of them where shorted.

I gutted the power supply this weekend and added a DC jack(5.5mmX2.5mm) to the back of the unit. I'm now using an external D-Link power supply which can be had from flea-bay for 10-15 bucks. 5v,3A, JTA0302C
  #146  
Old 05-19-2009, 07:30 AM
mtyme mtyme is offline
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The local radio shack was out of the 35v 1000uf caps so I went to a hole in the wall place. Closest they had was 25v 1000uf so I got those. Took 10 minutes to do the job, spent $4.50 in parts.

So the question is....Why is Sage charging $60 for this?
  #147  
Old 05-19-2009, 07:59 AM
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lovingHDTV lovingHDTV is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mtyme View Post
The local radio shack was out of the 35v 1000uf caps so I went to a hole in the wall place. Closest they had was 25v 1000uf so I got those. Took 10 minutes to do the job, spent $4.50 in parts.

So the question is....Why is Sage charging $60 for this?
Because they will fix it even if its not caps.
  #148  
Old 05-19-2009, 08:27 AM
reggie14 reggie14 is offline
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Originally Posted by lovingHDTV View Post
Because they will fix it even if its not caps.
I don't think that's entirely true. Sage said they would try to fix it, but if they weren't able to they'd offer a discount on the HD200. I take that to mean they're fixing the power supply issue (probably by swapping out the whole board, but I haven't looked at mine yet), and giving discounts to everyone else (if it ever happens).
  #149  
Old 05-19-2009, 08:31 AM
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Opus4 Opus4 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mtyme View Post
The local radio shack was out of the 35v 1000uf caps so I went to a hole in the wall place. Closest they had was 25v 1000uf so I got those. Took 10 minutes to do the job, spent $4.50 in parts.

So the question is....Why is Sage charging $60 for this?
I had to chuckle at this one. I have no idea what the parts cost SageTV or even what exactly they are replacing, but haven't you ever noticed that the cost of parts isn't really the largest part of the fee when someone else does something for you? There is time involved for someone to do the work, the overhead of running a business, and the time/expense for packaging & shipping the item. Check the labor cost the next time your car is repaired. Did it really cost the restaurant ~$50 in food supplies when my family ate there the other day? Check the labor if/when you have repairs or improvements made to your house -- I have no idea how to install a bathtub, but I can sure say it costs a lot more to have someone else put it in the house than the price of the bathtub itself.

It didn't cost you $4.50 and 10 minutes either. After reading about a possible solution, you decided that you had the knowledge/experience and tools to try doing it yourself. You then needed to go to the store, find what you needed, decide on using a substitute instead, and return. Your time isn't free either. You could have spent it doing something else rather than spent it buying & replacing capacitors to see if that would solve it. You chose to spend time on the project rather than more money.

In my opinion, it almost always costs more to pay someone else to do something if you decide you don't know how to do it or don't have the time to do so.

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  #150  
Old 05-19-2009, 09:17 AM
mtyme mtyme is offline
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Originally Posted by Opus4 View Post
I had to chuckle at this one.
Well, I'm glad you got a laugh out of my serious question Andy.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Opus4
I have no idea what the parts cost SageTV or even what exactly they are replacing, but haven't you ever noticed that the cost of parts isn't really the largest part of the fee when someone else does something for you? There is time involved for someone to do the work, the overhead of running a business, and the time/expense for packaging & shipping the item. Check the labor cost the next time your car is repaired. Did it really cost the restaurant ~$50 in food supplies when my family ate there the other day? Check the labor if/when you have repairs or improvements made to your house -- I have no idea how to install a bathtub, but I can sure say it costs a lot more to have someone else put it in the house than the price of the bathtub itself.
WOW ok... First of all, yes, I am familiar with the repair industry enough to know that if you aren't skilled in the particular area, you will need to pay for labor. Most people are aware of that.

My point was the very small cost of parts and the very minor time investment to replace said parts. I can't believe you're trying to compare installing a bath tub with soldering 6 pins on a circuit board. Furthermore, I don't think it's fair to include things like "business overhead" into the cost of the repair since I'm pretty sure we paid for that with the initial purchase of the extender.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Opus4
It didn't cost you $4.50 and 10 minutes either. After reading about a possible solution, you decided that you had the knowledge/experience and tools to try doing it yourself. You then needed to go to the store, find what you needed, decide on using a substitute instead, and return. Your time isn't free either. You could have spent it doing something else rather than spent it buying & replacing capacitors to see if that would solve it. You chose to spend time on the project rather than more money.
You're right, I could have spent that additional 5 minutes of driving to the store doing something more rewarding like driving to the post office to mail off my extender to Sage. Oh but wait, that would have cost me more CASH (and probably time) because I'm pretty sure it would have cost more than $4.50 to ship the extender. And lets not forget about the time spent waiting for shipping to Sage, repair time and return shipping. Surely the time I spent driving to the store and back, then the actual 10 minutes worth of repair more than makes up for the time spent waiting on shipping had I sent off my extender to Sage.

I knew I would get repsonses like this. That's why I asked the question. I know other's are wondering the same thing. The fact is, 60 dollars for this type of repair is too much. Show me an industry where labor costs 55 dollars for 10 minutes of work. Yes, I was able, and had the tools (my 50 cent soldering iron I got at a yard sale 18 years ago) and I understand some people may not fall into that category and will be forced to pay the repair fee. And if as others above this post have pointed out, the repair is something other than replacing those 3 caps, then great! Maybe people are getting their 60 dollars worth. But in what seems to be the case for the majority of people here...

Why does it cost $60 for $4.50 in parts and 10 minutes worth of time to fix a product that is clearly defective from the manufacturer?
  #151  
Old 05-19-2009, 09:35 AM
AzTech AzTech is offline
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It is interesting that you mention parts, labor, overhead...all costs. But you failed to mention the one major component in pricing--profit margin. Your meal cost $50 for your family because the restaurant needs to make a profit.

Of course, it costs more to pay someone else to do something. Nobody would argue that. However, and I could be wrong, but I don't think that was Mytme's point. I think he is suggesting that perhaps Sage is making a profit on their "generous" offer to fix people's defective HD-100 units. Based on the number of posts in this thread, these defective capacitors are obviously a wide-spread problem. Nobody is suggesting that Sage extend their 1 year warranty to fix this problem (even though companies like Microsoft that are notorious for poor customer service provided extended warranties for the Xbox 360 when their consoles were overheating). But I think people would take comfort in knowing that Sage is not making a profit on the repair either.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Opus4 View Post
I had to chuckle at this one.

One other point I would like to make: I know that you have a close relationship with Sage so you are going to do whatever it takes to defend them but you don't need to talk down to people...you can still treat people with respect when you make a point.
  #152  
Old 05-19-2009, 09:40 AM
reggie14 reggie14 is offline
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To put specific numbers on things, it's pretty easy to get relatively close to the $60. Let's say Sage is just swapping out the whole power supply board. Based on other posts in this board, and the fact that Sage isn't buying these things in bulk, that's probably around $15 each. Sage is paying for return shipping costs, which in my case was about $15 for UPS ground. Someone has to be the one to handle packages, test it, try to fix it, test it again, and send it out. It's pretty easy to imagine that taking about 30 minutes, which I'll just say is another $15. That leaves only a $15 gap to Sage's $60 cost, which is covered by tools, overhead, etc.

I don't think $60 is unreasonable. I probably could have fixed my Hd100 myself, but I didn't want to go to the trouble of learning how to do it and buying the necessary tools. That being said, I don't think Sage is losing money on the repair program either (I don't mean to suggest they should, I think it just limits how 'generous' of a program I think it is).
  #153  
Old 05-19-2009, 09:51 AM
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Opus4 Opus4 is offline
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I can't believe Radio Shack charged $4.50... those few parts probably cost them just a few cents to buy, if that much. My serious point remains that the cost of parts alone is often (but not always, of course) almost irrelevant to the final cost of something & I'll try to leave it at that from now on.

- Andy
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  #154  
Old 05-19-2009, 11:05 AM
briands briands is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mtyme View Post
...snip

Why does it cost $60 for $4.50 in parts and 10 minutes worth of time to fix a product that is clearly defective from the manufacturer?
With my simple calculation, you should be making about $333 / hr... maybe you are under paid...

Reminds me of a story ...
Quote:


A company's machine breaks down. The company's owner, an old school chum of Niels Bohr, calls in the physicist for help in fixing it.

Bohr examines the machine. He draws an X on the side and says, "Hit it right here with a hammer."

The company's mechanic hits the machine with a hammer. It springs into action. The company's owner thanks Niels Bohr profusely and sends him on his way.

A few days later, the owner receives an invoice from Bohr for $10,000. Shocked, the owner phones Bohr!

"Niels! What's this $10,000 invoice? You were only here for 10 minutes! Send me a detailed invoice."

Bohr agrees to send the invoice. A few days later, the company's owner opens a new invoice.

INVOICE
Drawing X on the side of your machine $ 1
Knowing where to put the X $ 9,999
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Total $10,000
  #155  
Old 05-19-2009, 12:53 PM
paulbeers paulbeers is offline
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Who is to even say Sage is doing the repair themselves? They are a software company. They don't make/build hardware. I really doubt they designed the hardware in the HD100 instead they found a company with a device/know how and threw their front end on it (the shell MIGHT be custom designed). So keeping this in mind, they very well could be outsourcing all repairs to someone else. I know in my case I charge an hour of my time regardless if it takes me an hour or 5 minutes. Based on that, the cost to repair could easily be $50 (if not more) to Sage and then remaining $10 is shipping.

And if they are doing the repairs themselves, so what if they are making money off the repair, what is your point? The point of any company is to make money isn't it? They could say something along the lines of "The warrantee is over, you will have to buy an HD200" right? I am pretty sure that is what most companies do especially given Sage's fairly "low volume".

You can't please everyone. If one of my HD100's die, I will probably try to fix it myself and if I completely melt it down I will get an HD200. The advantages of the HD200 are enough that spending $60 on an old unit isn't worth it to me, but as long as they keep chugging along I won't replace them.
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  #156  
Old 05-19-2009, 01:44 PM
reggie14 reggie14 is offline
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Originally Posted by paulbeers View Post
Who is to even say Sage is doing the repair themselves?
Interesting point. Though, I think the very quick turnaround time on the repairs indicates George is doing it. I know Sage is the one that ordered the spare parts to fix these things. I suppose it's possible they are giving the broken units and spare parts to someone else, but that seems unlikely.

Quote:
And if they are doing the repairs themselves, so what if they are making money off the repair, what is your point? The point of any company is to make money isn't it? They could say something along the lines of "The warrantee is over, you will have to buy an HD200" right?
They could, but I don't think that would be a very consumer-friendly thing to do. So many people espouse the virtues of SageTV the company and I think they'd lose some points in that regard. Since SageTV is such a small company it's impossible for us to know for sure, but there's reason to think that this is a manufacturing defect in the capacitors on the power supply board. I think a lot of companies wouldn't be sticking to their exact warranty conditions in that situation, which Microsoft and the XBox360 being a recent example.

If Sage can't afford to do a limited warranty extension like Microsoft I'd understand. But, I wouldn't want to see Sage profiting off of a manufacturing defect in a product they sold.

And, I don't think that's what's really happening here. Sage probably could have afforded to reduce the price a bit, but maybe only by $10 at the most. I don't think it's really fair to look at this particular repair program like a normal product, factoring in overhead and profits into the cost. Really, it seems more fair to me to ask what the marginal cost is to Sage in performing these repairs. I really don't think it's $60, but I bet it is over $45.
  #157  
Old 05-20-2009, 10:53 AM
merneric merneric is offline
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I just wanted to add, that I finally cracked open my defunct HD-100 last night, and sure enough 2 out of 3 capacitors were slighlty "bulged" at the top. In fact, mine pretty much looked exactly as what was previously described by smoothtlk:

"Ok, two of the 10v 1,000mf caps are bulged and burst at the top (C205, C206). The third (C207 closest to the primary board connector) is not bulged (yet)."

So, I too made a quick trip to radioshack (I haven't figured out exactly how much that cost me in gas and time) and bought 3 replacement capacitors, just in case the other one was bad as well. They actually only had one of the 272-1032 ($1.59 each) which are 1000uf 35 volt radial capacitors, so I ended up getting two of the larger, 1000uf, 50 volt capactitors (sorry I don't have the exact part number with me). These are quite a bit bulkier, and have the leads on both ends, as opposed to being on the same end, but as long as they are soldered in with the correct polarity, it is possible to squeeze them on, and still get everything to fit back in the case. That being said, once the two bulged caps were desoldered and replaced, all was well again.

So I can add that self repair is pretty straightforward, and for those that are technically inclined enough to setup SageTV in the first place, I would venture to guess that most such people are more than capable of completeing this simple repair...

All in all, although it is annoying, it does seem to be a relatively painless and quick fix. Now I have read most of the posts in this thread, and I can definitely empathize with those who are upset that their equipment is no longer funtioning as it should. I was right there with them. I was a little miffed that after having spent 600 bucks on 3 HD-100's that a new and improved HD-200 came out in what seemed to be about a year later. I was more than a little miffed that 1/3 of that investment suddenly failed, and from the sound of things, possibly more to come in the near future. Finally, to have to spend 60 bucks, or roughly 30% of the original purchase price, which by any reasonable standard, should have lasted MUCH longer, was more than a little disconcerting. However, with all that said, a 200 dollar extender option, even if I do have to upgrade it after a year of use, is still cheaper, and much easier to maintain/upgrade than a full blown HTPC. So yes, it is disappointing to get hit with the "early adopter" tax, and also, to get hit with having to research, and then repair your own hardware (if you so choose), but I still think that overall, this is probably the best alternative, and I will most likely begrudgingly order a new HD-200, to take advantage of some of the newer features.
  #158  
Old 05-20-2009, 12:05 PM
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mayamaniac mayamaniac is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by merneric View Post
I just wanted to add, that I finally cracked open my defunct HD-100 last night, and sure enough 2 out of 3 capacitors were slighlty "bulged" at the top. In fact, mine pretty much looked exactly as what was previously described by smoothtlk:

"Ok, two of the 10v 1,000mf caps are bulged and burst at the top (C205, C206). The third (C207 closest to the primary board connector) is not bulged (yet)."

So, I too made a quick trip to radioshack (I haven't figured out exactly how much that cost me in gas and time) and bought 3 replacement capacitors, just in case the other one was bad as well. They actually only had one of the 272-1032 ($1.59 each) which are 1000uf 35 volt radial capacitors, so I ended up getting two of the larger, 1000uf, 50 volt capactitors (sorry I don't have the exact part number with me). These are quite a bit bulkier, and have the leads on both ends, as opposed to being on the same end, but as long as they are soldered in with the correct polarity, it is possible to squeeze them on, and still get everything to fit back in the case. That being said, once the two bulged caps were desoldered and replaced, all was well again.
That's awesome. I hope the next person that attempt the self repair documents all the parts and part numbers and include pictures of the process.
Quote:
All in all, although it is annoying, it does seem to be a relatively painless and quick fix. Now I have read most of the posts in this thread, and I can definitely empathize with those who are upset that their equipment is no longer funtioning as it should. I was right there with them. I was a little miffed that after having spent 600 bucks on 3 HD-100's that a new and improved HD-200 came out in what seemed to be about a year later. I was more than a little miffed that 1/3 of that investment suddenly failed, and from the sound of things, possibly more to come in the near future. Finally, to have to spend 60 bucks, or roughly 30% of the original purchase price, which by any reasonable standard, should have lasted MUCH longer, was more than a little disconcerting. However, with all that said, a 200 dollar extender option, even if I do have to upgrade it after a year of use, is still cheaper, and much easier to maintain/upgrade than a full blown HTPC. So yes, it is disappointing to get hit with the "early adopter" tax, and also, to get hit with having to research, and then repair your own hardware (if you so choose), but I still think that overall, this is probably the best alternative, and I will most likely begrudgingly order a new HD-200, to take advantage of some of the newer features.
You can try to sell your HD100s with newly upgraded DELUXE capacitors. I'm sure you can find takers.
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  #159  
Old 05-21-2009, 06:53 AM
drewg drewg is offline
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Parts list for solderless fix?

I have a Feb 2008 HD100. It is not dead yet, but I'd like to be prepared with parts on hand so that if/when it does die, I can get it back up and running quickly. However, I'm purely a software guy (*nix network drivers), and I haven't touched a soldering iron since some boy scout merit badge when I was 12 or so. So I would not trust myself to solder in new caps.

Has anybody done a solderless fix (preferably converted to wall-wart) who has a parts list they could share? I've been looking over some of the electronics web sites, and I have no idea what parts I'd need to order to convert the thing to a wall wart. It is all greek to me..

Thanks,

Drew
  #160  
Old 05-21-2009, 07:11 AM
Taddeusz Taddeusz is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by drewg View Post
I have a Feb 2008 HD100. It is not dead yet, but I'd like to be prepared with parts on hand so that if/when it does die, I can get it back up and running quickly. However, I'm purely a software guy (*nix network drivers), and I haven't touched a soldering iron since some boy scout merit badge when I was 12 or so. So I would not trust myself to solder in new caps.

Has anybody done a solderless fix (preferably converted to wall-wart) who has a parts list they could share? I've been looking over some of the electronics web sites, and I have no idea what parts I'd need to order to convert the thing to a wall wart. It is all greek to me..

Thanks,

Drew
If its already started and probably guaranteed to eventually fail it can get worse if you wait. Due to the type of failure it can cause other components to fail as well. Waiting can only make things worse once the failure begins.
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