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  #1  
Old 12-05-2006, 01:26 PM
popechild popechild is offline
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Is there a minimum time before manual recordings will delete?

I ran into a problem last Saturday trying to watch a bunch of football games in HD. I'm trying not to be mad, but this particular problem DID cause me to miss the last quarter of a very good SEC Championship game, so I'm certainly not happy about it.

I basically had almost nothing previously recorded on the Sage, as I had cleared out as much room as possible, because I knew I was going to be recording quite a few long football games in HD that day. I manually set recordings (with default settings) for a bunch of games throughout the day. That way I could switch back and forth between different games on different channels being recorded on different tuners and not have to worry about missing anything.

I went out to dinner that night and came back to watch the end of the SEC game. Started watching, and to my surprise it had suddenly stopped recording about 45 short of when I had set it to go to. I checked my disk space and was completely out of space.

When I checked my recordings, the 2 or 3 previous favorites that had still been in my recordings had been deleted to clear out space (as they should have been), but none of the manual recordings from earlier in the day had been deleted, so it just kept filling up space. I hadn't set anything to keep until I deleted it or anything like that. Why wouldn't the recordings from earlier have been removed in order to record the later games?

Is there some sort of minimum time that manual recordings (or any recordings for that matter) are kept before they're allowed to be erased? I looked in the manual after I quit throwing things at the tv and couldn't find anything.

I'd love some clarification on this from anyone in the know. Thanks!
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  #2  
Old 12-05-2006, 01:38 PM
millers_35 millers_35 is offline
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Manual recordings are never automatically deleted by Sage.

Miller
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  #3  
Old 12-05-2006, 01:46 PM
blade blade is offline
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Sounds like it worked exactly as it's supposed to work. As Miller said, manual recordings are never automatically deleted. If you want them to be then you need to select the show and select recording options and remove the manual recording status. This will allow Sage to delete it when space is needed. I think this can only be done once it has finished recording, but I'm not totally sure.
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  #4  
Old 12-05-2006, 01:53 PM
popechild popechild is offline
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Really? Man, I don't like that one bit. When you say "remove the manual recording status" do you mean set it to "watched"? I don't see anything anywhere having to do with "manual recording status."

Grrr... I guess I'l have to add this to my wishlist for future versions in addition to the "record all, regardless of whether it's been watched before" option request. There's a couple of things like this that - at least if you come from Tivo - make very little sense as to why they're done differently by Sage...
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  #5  
Old 12-05-2006, 01:56 PM
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nielm nielm is offline
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Record Options->Remove Manual Record Status.
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  #6  
Old 12-05-2006, 01:58 PM
millers_35 millers_35 is offline
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On the manual recording you want to be auto deleted click on it and go to "Record Options" I think and there should be a "Remove Manual Recording Status" setting it to watched will not work for manual recordings. I know its like that in the webserver not exactly sure in the STV as I'm at work right now.

Miller

edit. blah slow i guess
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  #7  
Old 12-05-2006, 02:34 PM
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Opus4 Opus4 is offline
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Appendix C in the SageTV manual explains how disk space is managed, what the deletion priority is, and which types of recordings are never auto-deleted. To have SageTV manage the files & delete as needed, set up Favorites that are not manual delete only.

Since a manual recording is something the user sets as a specific airing to be recorded, SageTV leaves all control of the resulting file up to the user... and this is one reason why you are asked if you want to delete the recording at the end of its playback.

- Andy
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  #8  
Old 12-05-2006, 02:43 PM
popechild popechild is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nielm
Record Options->Remove Manual Record Status.
Ahh, I see. I guess this option isn't in SageMC, which I'm using at the moment. So I don't really have an option at this time other than deleting it myself or switching to the standard STV to change the manual record status.
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  #9  
Old 12-05-2006, 02:46 PM
ke6guj ke6guj is offline
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You should be able to just hit the "record" button on your remote, and it will remove the manual recording status.
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  #10  
Old 12-05-2006, 02:46 PM
popechild popechild is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Opus4
Appendix C in the SageTV manual explains how disk space is managed, what the deletion priority is, and which types of recordings are never auto-deleted. To have SageTV manage the files & delete as needed, set up Favorites that are not manual delete only.

Since a manual recording is something the user sets as a specific airing to be recorded, SageTV leaves all control of the resulting file up to the user... and this is one reason why you are asked if you want to delete the recording at the end of its playback.

- Andy
Thanks, didn't see the Appendix when I was checking the manual.

What you're saying about leaving control up to the user on manual recordings makes sense, but I guess that's why I was expecting that the user would have the control of deciding whether or not the recording would be automatically deletable or not. Kind of like when you set a favorite and can choose whether or not it will be auto-deleted or saved until you delete it, I'm not sure I understand why this option wouldn't be just as helpful on a manual recording (in the "advanced" options when you set up the recording, for instance). Just seems like additional flexibility to me, not less.

I often schedule manual recordings when I hear something about an upcoming show I want to see (an episode of 60 minutes, or a specific sporting event) that doesn't make sense to schedule as a favorite. It'd be nice to be able to schedule those and then just let Sage do its thing with managing the disk space without having to come back and manually delete or change status on each one, but maybe that's just me.

Last edited by popechild; 12-05-2006 at 02:48 PM.
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  #11  
Old 12-05-2006, 04:14 PM
jsonnabend jsonnabend is offline
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It's not just you. There have been other discussions on this, and the fact that it has come up again shows the counter-intuitive nature of the present setup, I think. The fact that you have to go to the manual at all, no less to an appendix, to decipher that "manual recording status" means "don't delete until I say so" borders on plain silly.

I'm sure Blade will have something to say about this in Sage's "defense".

- Jeff
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  #12  
Old 12-05-2006, 04:34 PM
blade blade is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jsonnabend
It's not just you. There have been other discussions on this, and the fact that it has come up again shows the counter-intuitive nature of the present setup, I think. The fact that you have to go to the manual at all, no less to an appendix, to decipher that "manual recording status" means "don't delete until I say so" borders on plain silly.
I agree there needs to be a cleaner system in place for setting the delete status. At least one that's labeled so that it's more intuitive. I would disagree that the default status should be "feel free to delete my manual recording" as others in the past have said it should be.


Quote:
I'm sure Blade will have something to say about this in Sage's "defense".

- Jeff
If you have a problem with me feel free to shoot me a P.M. I'm sure others would prefer this thread stay on topic.
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  #13  
Old 12-05-2006, 04:58 PM
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Opus4 Opus4 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jsonnabend
It's not just you. There have been other discussions on this, and the fact that it has come up again shows the counter-intuitive nature of the present setup, I think. The fact that you have to go to the manual at all, no less to an appendix, to decipher that "manual recording status" means "don't delete until I say so" borders on plain silly.
I find it interesting that people take their learned behaviors from one product and then apply that to another product, expecting things to work the same all over. Different products work differently, so I can't imagine anyone moving from one PVR product to another w/o having to learn something about the new product's functionality.

And, the appendix provides further details about space management, which is why I referenced it. There is also a Quick Start Guide as part of Chapter 2 in the manual, where the 2nd sentence of the section dealing with manual recordings states that such recordings will never be automatically deleted.

Quote:
I'm sure Blade will have something to say about this in Sage's "defense".
I would remove such a poke at a specific person, but it has already been responded to. In the future, if you wish to start a fight with someone before a disagreement has even appeared, please do so outside the forum. However, if you don't like someone on the forum, you may find it best to simply leave them alone and not respond to them.

- Andy
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  #14  
Old 12-06-2006, 08:08 AM
jsonnabend jsonnabend is offline
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Quote:
I find it interesting that people take their learned behaviors from one product and then apply that to another product
Andy, when you get in a car you've never driven before, what gear to put it in to go? Do you look for "D" or something else? Why? What would happen if some manufacturer changed it to "K" and positioned it last? Of course, you could read the manual, but it might be better if the manufacturer followed convention or at least used a common English designation for the function, no?

You can get indignant if you want, but humans rely on past experience all the time, and sticking stubbornly to a non-intuitive interface serves no one's best interest.

Joel Spolsky wrote a short primer on UI design. He talks about the "developer's model" and the "user's model" and the problems that arise when the two don't match. It's a quick read, not very deep, but you may find it gets you thinking about things you haven't before.

- Jeff

Last edited by jsonnabend; 12-06-2006 at 08:11 AM.
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  #15  
Old 12-06-2006, 10:03 AM
sfisher sfisher is offline
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Andy, when you get in a car you've never driven before, what gear to put it in to go? Do you look for "D" or something else? Why? What would happen if some manufacturer changed it to "K" and positioned it last? Of course, you could read the manual, but it might be better if the manufacturer followed convention or at least used a common English designation for the function, no?
Hmm, I step on the clutch and put it in first. In one car I rented, to open a window, you push a small lever on the center console between the two front seats, other cars you turn a crank or push a button on the door. Used to have a push button transmission in one of my previous cars. Front wheel drive cars, you turn the wheels out of the skid to re-gain control, rear wheel drive you turn into the skid to regain control...

I guess there is more than one "standard" for cars after all. Don't know about the rest of you, but I read my car's user manual from cover to cover, because it did things that my other cars didn't.

Standardized UIs are nice for dumbed downed or very mature applications, but start falling apart as features and capabilities are increased. And in a relatively new product, who says the best UI has yet to be seen and everybody should be using Tivo's for example? Not to say there doesn't need to be improvements, and there is always more functionality you can add, and I hope they do, but most of Sage TV's UI works just fine for me.

BTW: I want it to magically know when a game runs longer than scheduled and re-adjust all program recording times to it and the other shows after it on the channel to accommodate the time shift.

Last edited by sfisher; 12-06-2006 at 10:06 AM.
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  #16  
Old 12-06-2006, 10:26 AM
jsonnabend jsonnabend is offline
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Quote:
I guess there is more than one "standard" for cars after all.
There is no "standard" at all for car UI's, and occasionally a designer comes along with a really good change to the status quo. I'm not suggesting that all designs must be in lock step, but some UI's are better than others, correct? Heck, there is an entire field of study devoted to such things.

When was the last time you needed an instruction manual to put a car in drive? For that matter, when you stepped on the clutch, I presume it was the pedal on the left? And where was first gear? If the window control was in the glove compartment, would that be good design? Between two UI designs having the same functionality, the more intuitive one is the better one, I believe.

Ideally, all devices would be so intuitive that instruction manuals would not be necessary. Certainly, having an option of "don't delete this until I say so" would require less user homework than using "change manual recording status" to do the same thing.

- Jeff
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  #17  
Old 12-06-2006, 11:18 AM
sfisher sfisher is offline
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Ideally, all devices would be so intuitive that instruction manuals would not be necessary. Certainly, having an option of "don't delete this until I say so" would require less user homework than using "change manual recording status" to do the same thing.
A manual recording is set to "don't delete this until I say so" it's hard coded that way, which makes a bit of sense to me, that if you manually set a recording, you'd like to see it before the system deletes it.

Sounds like you want an option that says "it's OK to delete this manual recording if I've watched it." which if you had watched the recordings to the end they would have asked you if you wanted to delete them.

I get the functionality you want by setting them as Favorites, and if need be, high priority favorites to ensure they get recorded. They then stay around until I watch them or until there is no more room available, and then the watched or oldest gets deleted.

Don't get me wrong, manual recordings should, to my way of thinking, be in the same flow as the rest of the recordings, being perhaps the last to be deleted if not watched, And just like the rest of the recordings, if you want to keep it you archive it. But they don't act that way, and I know that because I read the manual.

You will notice I think, that the only things that are more or less standard in a car are the things that would kill someone if they weren't. Having your recording stop didn't kill anyone.

sorry you missed the last of the game though...

Last edited by sfisher; 12-06-2006 at 11:24 AM.
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  #18  
Old 12-06-2006, 11:23 AM
jsonnabend jsonnabend is offline
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I understand the setting. While I think the user should have control over the default behavior, my only point here is that the way in which a user removes the "don't delete until I say so" setting for a recording is not readily apparent.

- Jeff
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  #19  
Old 12-06-2006, 01:00 PM
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nielm nielm is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jsonnabend
When was the last time you needed an instruction manual to put a car in drive?
Aargh a car/computer analogy: OK I'll bite:

How many different ways are there of unlocking the stick to put it into Reverse/park?

How many different ways of putting a manual shift into Reverse are there? (bottom left? top right? lift stick? push stick?)

Indicator stalk on left/right?
Windscreen wiper control: push up/down/turn?
Electric Window control: on door or on center console?

And then we get to Car radio controls... and heating/AC controls...
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  #20  
Old 12-06-2006, 01:10 PM
jsonnabend jsonnabend is offline
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Right, Nielm, but that's misses the point. It's not a question of how many ways there are to do something, it's a question of which ways are good and which are not. If you need a car manual to figure out how to operate the windows, it's a bad design. If you start feeling frustrated figuring it out without the manual, many UI designers would say it's a bad design (and I would agree). When was the last time you needed the manual to find "drive" (or first gear)?

With Sage, if people keep saying, "I can't find the setting for x", then perhaps the setting could be made easier to find. Sage's approach to "don't delete until I say so" is valid, it's just not good.

- Jeff
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