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  #1  
Old 07-13-2016, 08:33 PM
SageWizdom SageWizdom is offline
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Looking for your thoughts on an architecture proposal...

Greetings,
I have been mulling over thoughts of how help Sages longer term evolution, and what kinds of things have to happen to enable change and forward movement, versus ongoing bug fixes. My thoughts keep getting drawn back to the rapidly evolving online ecosystem that revolves around restful interfaces and APIs.

I would like to propose an onward Sage roadmap that moves away from a Java only Inter Process Communication (IPC) mechanism and toward a set of interdependent processes that all communicate through Restful apis (pick your favorite flavor) and JSON (or similar). I imagine a Sage core that starts up a set of sub processes/services and then communicates with them as needed. This would allow individuals to evolve the segments they care about, in clean isolated ways, and only add the overhead of implementing a standard restful IPC mechanism when a segment is sliced away from the core. It enables the fixing of bugs through enhancement versus just maintenance. The best part is... this probably already exists at some level in the SageX api (and other bits).

In recent months, there have been conversations of how to reimplement the scheduler, handling external clients, transcoding support, multiple network encoders and their integration. Having a standard way to extract functionality and turn it into a sub component (outside of just integrated Java) would allow some of these coordination issues to go away.

That's Crazy!
I imagine that this might sound crazy. However, I believe this is exactly how the plugin system works today, it just requires integrated Java code. I'll use a recent scheduler conversation as an example. Today the internal scheduler points at the legacy server. It is only particularly helpful to folks who have a legacy key. There was a recent discussion of how to integrate Schedules Direct into the core. Instead of doing this, in the above model, a thread would be created proposing to extract the scheduler code segment. A discussion would be had about how the rest of Sage speaks to it, and how it speaks to Sage. Once the api is decided, the developer would extract the current code, wrap it in the api and verify it still works. Then they would leverage the same wrapper and build the Schedules Direct plugin/module/service.

This provides a huge ability for future innovation. An interested developer could quickly build a peer-to-peer scheduler with integrated tvdb and other hooks. An interested developer with multiple sources (satellite, cable, ota, etc) could easily add an abstraction layer and sub schedulers for each type of input, and pull these all into a consolidated scheduler. As long as the API defines how to pass appropriate objects Sage does not need to know of the extra hidden complexity.

Hhhhmmm Tell Me More
The big sell to me, is that this opens up development beyond just Java. While a great deal can be done in Java, there do not seem to be a huge number of available developers, which leaves support, enhancement, etc on the few that are here. With the ability for other developers to contribute, there is much more potential to enhance, fix, and update Sage. It also will allow more direct integration of tremendous Sage functionality with other systems... further drawing developers and interest. Imagine a Sage PVR for Kodi that is nicely and fully integrated. I believe this would simplify the efforts for a new web UI, or the downloading IOS app previously developed.

I'm going to cut my post here, because I could go on (and boy could I). But as I said above... This post is more about the future direction of Sage, and how it grows next rather than any immediate change. What foundation is needed to set that direction and enable it to grow, rather than just bug fix. I'm not sure if I've said this as well as I could, but I didn't want to just sit on it. Your thoughts are appreciated.

Questions?
For those of you with pet projects or goals (clients,encoders,etc)... what would enable you to really move things forward versus just fix issues?

For those of you who develop, but are not Java coders... Would this allow you to get involved?
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  #2  
Old 07-14-2016, 03:04 AM
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I am not really a fan of Java - but with the way the UI is generated, I can see no real reason to move away from it as the standard. That said, with sagex (a SageTV API utilizing JSON), there is already a lot that can be done without java (including just about all the integration with other programs you might be envisioning).
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  #3  
Old 07-14-2016, 05:23 AM
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EnterNoEscape EnterNoEscape is offline
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I've seen projects try to re-invent themselves in the manner that you're talking about; they're all over the place on GitHub. It's the "let's do it better this time" attitude. At first there's a lot of vigor, then about 2 years later things are technically better, but the project is nowhere near where it was before functionality-wise and eventually no one seems to care anymore. I don't think SageTV can afford to be nearly back at square one.

Anyone who has some training in object oriented programming can learn the Java basics in a few weeks. Also as stuckless has pointed out, Java is currently the most popular programming language. I don't think Java is scaring developers away, but it's worth asking what languages would you rather be programming in?
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  #4  
Old 07-14-2016, 05:26 AM
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stuckless stuckless is offline
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I guess you'd have to decide "why" you want to "move away from java". If it's the belief that if sagetv were not Java then developers would flock to it, then I guess that's a goal, but I'd evaluate the truth to that statement as well

The parts of SageTV, today, that need the most work and have the fewest people looking at it, is ironically, the non-java parts... ie, mplayer, ffmpeg, and getting the native bits to run on Windows. etc. So, if Java was a barrier for developers, I'd expect that we'd actually see more work being done in those areas, but yet, we see even less effort.

Personally, I think that SageTV is lacking developers, because it lacks marketing. I spent years building various PVR systems, and that fact that SageTV existed for so long without me ever knowing about really surprised me (I didn't hear about SageTV until version 6). And, I didn't "stumble" on SageTV... it was pointed out to me, but someone else For kicks, I googled "PVR" and it wasn't until I got page 4 that I found a reference to "SageTV" and it was from a site that was doing a review of SageTV 2.1.

Today, unless you know sagetv exists, you are not going to just find it. I have yet to meet another technical person that actually knows what SageTV is, when I've asked, 'Have you ever heard of SageTV?" (outside of circle).

So attracting more developers to SageTV really means doing a better job at marketing SageTV. Step 1 of that is have an actual internet presence, which we don't really have. This is something a pure non-technical person can do... setup a landing site for SageTV, much like MythTV, Kodi, gbPRV, nextPVR, mediaportal, etc. We can't attract developers, if people don't know it exists

The second problem that we face in attracting developers is that ironically, a PVR is something that your "parents" use, and not something that the current generation of TV watchers actually care about. My kids have a 75" TV in the same room as their computers... and for the most part, it never gets used. They watch TV every day, just not on a big screen. For movies it gets used more, mainly by myself and my wife. When they do turn it on... they are not going to SageTV, they are going Netflix. I would guess that most of us that are doing work on SageTV today is over 35 (I'm even old than that ) -- but if you are much younger than that... say 25... I bet you don't have Cable/Sat TV at all... you use netflix and likely download stuff.

SageTV as a platform today can already support a wide variety of languages, javascript, python, groovy, scala, kotlin (any language that run on the jvm), but that hasn't attracted more developers. I guess I'm not convinced that a move away from java would miraculously get developers to flock to a system they've never heard of.

All that being said, while a "REST" api is fine for most communications, I would recommend that we look at something like Protocol Buffers if we want to office non java integration into SageTV parts. Sagex APIs are 100% auto-generated (from the javadoc -- which now can be auto-generated from the code itself). Expanding sagex to support something like protocol buffers wouldn't be that hard, it would be a very efficient messaging protocol that would allow for integrations from non-java sources.

Personally, I thing before we do that, though, it would be best to get the native parts upgraded to the latest mplayer (85% done), and the latest ffmpeg, and to automate the Windows building of those native parts, and automate the creation of the windows installers, to bring it on par with the Linux side of things.
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  #5  
Old 07-14-2016, 08:05 AM
NetworkGuy NetworkGuy is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by stuckless View Post
Personally, I thing before we do that, though, it would be best to get the native parts upgraded to the latest mplayer (85% done), and the latest ffmpeg, and to automate the Windows building of those native parts, and automate the creation of the windows installers, to bring it on par with the Linux side of things.
I agree. Let's bring the current system up to the latest technology before we start re-inventing it.
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  #6  
Old 07-14-2016, 05:09 PM
nyplayer nyplayer is offline
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How about starting with the SDEPG as the google epg is getting more and more unreliable. The EPG is the driving force of any DVR.

http://forums.sagetv.com/forums/show...781#post590781
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  #7  
Old 07-15-2016, 11:57 AM
moldmaker78 moldmaker78 is offline
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I am not a programmer so my views are as an average TV viewer.
Why should people use saetv?
Most people don't have an antenna to view OTA.
Cable TV won't work any more.
Playon is the only thing left.

A website is needed for the average Tv viewer.
Apps for Netflix, HBO now,etc are needed for the online menus.

Stuff needs to work thru the sagetv interface for TV users.
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  #8  
Old 07-15-2016, 01:18 PM
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Fuzzy Fuzzy is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by moldmaker78 View Post
I am not a programmer so my views are as an average TV viewer.
Why should people use saetv?
Most people don't have an antenna to view OTA.
Cable TV won't work any more.
Playon is the only thing left.

A website is needed for the average Tv viewer.
Apps for Netflix, HBO now,etc are needed for the online menus.

Stuff needs to work thru the sagetv interface for TV users.
These, of course, vary from person to person. I have an OTA antenna, and Cable works for me quite well. Netflix, in my home, is watched on tablets, on on the TV via the XBox One (which SageTV passes through).

I will agree that 'stuff' does need to work through the sagetv interface. The SDEPG and OpenDCT are the two things I can see as needing a UI MOD.
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  #9  
Old 07-15-2016, 03:22 PM
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stanger89 stanger89 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nyplayer View Post
How about starting with the SDEPG as the google epg is getting more and more unreliable. The EPG is the driving force of any DVR.

http://forums.sagetv.com/forums/show...781#post590781
I've seen people with problems, but I haven't had any EPG problems in years. It's just as reliable as it's always been for me.

Quote:
Originally Posted by moldmaker78 View Post
I am not a programmer so my views are as an average TV viewer.
Why should people use saetv?
Most people don't have an antenna to view OTA.
Cable TV won't work any more.
Playon is the only thing left.
Well, Sage has never been for "most people". "Most people" don't have a clue about DVRs, they just use their cable box, or at most rent a DVR from their cable provider.

Sage has always been a niche product for advanced users who want something more for their TV experience. As for your specific comments, I think the first is false, from what I gather, more and more people are dropping cable and going OTA, often augmented with some streaming service.

As for cable, it works great for those with clear QAM or Copy Freely cable card. That's not everyone, but it's a group for sure.

As for streaming, IMO it's a fools errand to try deal with that fragmented proprietary environment. It's just not something a little, community group can successfully improve. And the "market" is already saturated with those trying to.

It will be sad when SageTV is obsolete, but IMO it's best for Sage to just keep doing what it does, and always has done well/best, and that's be a PVR. It's great to bridge gaps with media playback and the like, but I thing it's wasted effort to try and turn Sage into something it never was, just to (effectively) keep the name alive.
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  #10  
Old 07-16-2016, 12:25 PM
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Narflex Narflex is offline
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For rearchitectures, IMO it's always important to be sure you have a product level goal in the end you are achieving with an undertaking like that. Things like EPG downloaders and capture devices already have clean plugin systems inside of SageTV. The network encoder doing the best job of exposing the capture device plugabillity. It's very easy to add new EPG downloaders into the code; I've done this many times before. The main thing missing is something that presents the options in the UI and allows selection of one (But that's an easy thing to add as well).

And I agree Java as a language isn't a problem, it's more having people with specific knowledge around things like FFMPEG/MPlayer and definitely Windows DirectShow programming. Those seems to be the current main hangups (and better SD integration)....but also, once there's a continually built Windows installer, that should help a bunch with reach as well.
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  #11  
Old 07-17-2016, 09:47 AM
Monedeath Monedeath is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Narflex View Post
And I agree Java as a language isn't a problem, it's more having people with specific knowledge around things like FFMPEG/MPlayer and definitely Windows DirectShow programming. Those seems to be the current main hangups (and better SD integration)....but also, once there's a continually built Windows installer, that should help a bunch with reach as well.
This is the big one, getting some primers out there for people to start trying to figure out what's involved in that stuff would be a good place for someone to undertake some effort in.

As it is, we're reliant on people who either already have experience in those fields deciding to undertake the work, or for someone to be sufficiently motivated to try to "grok it out" on their own, with wildly varying degrees of success, since there isn't much in the way of "...For dummies" on the matter out there to be found in just a quick casual search. Some of this is work that involves fairly specialized and specific fields, and the reality is the number of people involved in them is a bit smaller than some would like to believe.

Last edited by Monedeath; 07-17-2016 at 09:50 AM.
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  #12  
Old 07-18-2016, 01:23 PM
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routerunner routerunner is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Narflex View Post
And I agree Java as a language isn't a problem, it's more having people with specific knowledge around things like FFMPEG/MPlayer and definitely Windows DirectShow programming.
Apologies if this is a little bit off topic, but I think that people need a proper motivation before committing to any work because the amount of time you will invest in research and development is time that you take away from other interests you might have?

I didn't do any DirectShow development before the DVB decrypter and I must admit it wasn't that straightforward, but this is true for everything you are not familiar with, it just take time to sink in, but again you need a lot of motivation to make it happen.

Cheers
Eddy
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  #13  
Old 07-23-2016, 01:45 PM
gary201 gary201 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by moldmaker78 View Post
I am not a programmer so my views are as an average TV viewer.
Why should people use saetv?
Most people don't have an antenna to view OTA.
Cable TV won't work any more.
Playon is the only thing left.

A website is needed for the average Tv viewer.
Apps for Netflix, HBO now,etc are needed for the online menus.

Stuff needs to work thru the sagetv interface for TV users.
I have an antenna and and a couple HDHomeRun OTA tuners and record quite a bit of OTA stuff for later watching. I also cancelled Cable TV entirely and now just use PlayOn to record stuff off of Netflix, Hulu and YouTube, which I watch later on from any of the 3 HD300 devices I have. PlayOn just records to a NAS directory that Sage uses as a video import directory. For me, Sage is my primary viewing portal.
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  #14  
Old 08-30-2016, 03:23 PM
jptheripper jptheripper is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by moldmaker78 View Post
I am not a programmer so my views are as an average TV viewer.
Why should people use saetv?
Most people don't have an antenna to view OTA.
Cable TV won't work any more.
Playon is the only thing left.

A website is needed for the average Tv viewer.
Apps for Netflix, HBO now,etc are needed for the online menus.

Stuff needs to work thru the sagetv interface for TV users.
Ugh this frustrates me.

1. Most people I know have an antenna and cable
2. I only use antenna, cable, and cable card for source
3. I tried play on, it's awful
4. In my group of associates (IT Professionals, Im a developer) out of thirty plus, 1 streams Netflix. Everyone else gave up on it long ago. And that one is the only person under thirty years old. THe rest of the world still wants media, downloaded shows, offline viewing, and live sports.

I don't want an app for a network, ever. I could care less what station a show is on, I just want to watch it. I don't want to go to HBO for this, showtime for that. I want to go to sage, type show name, and be done.

Sagetv exists, for me, as the anti streaming platform. That's why I love it
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  #15  
Old 08-30-2016, 08:40 PM
SageWizdom SageWizdom is offline
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This thread is a great read. I happen to agree that access to media is the useful way to go. In my original question, I was curious what our goal is beyond, keeping things working.

I've had a busy summer but thought about this a lot. I like the idea that things should just work. I like the idea the people who don't know and don't want to know can use the great thing that is SageTV. While my question of re-architecting may/may not be the right one, perhaps a related or more valid question should be, what does the next generation of SageTV look like and what would be the path to get there?

One possible vision that I would offer. A simple to install / use media platform for capturing OTA, Cable, Satellite (etc) media and presenting it for easy use to a media consumer. I imagine an integrated (TV) option (Android App), a visually similar Web UI (perhaps fake the same look and feel with good CSS layouts), a good streaming experience (to phones/tablets) and the ability to "Cache" files on your device for offline viewing (plane trips, car rides, etc). The hardware should be fairly easy (Docker container on a home NAS or similar commercial hardware; a stable of supported network encoders; a very few, very simple way to handle custom situations (inline encoders for satellite?); a standard, simple, no fail way to automatically upgrade user software as updates come out)

I don't think Sage needs to integrate streaming tools, Sage just needs to be another integrated app in a few appropriate ecosystems where the ecosystems pull it all together (ex. the Echo integration work and the android app).

I'm still catching up from my time away, but I am reminded why I am so impressed with the folks in this forum.
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  #16  
Old 08-31-2016, 11:02 AM
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Skirge01 Skirge01 is offline
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I think one of the most important things for Sage is to "just work". By that, I refer to the ability to play back anything you throw at it, without the need to fuss with codecs. I think this is the primary appeal for Kodi. I don't think I've yet to find something Kodi couldn't play. I have no idea what the Kodi developers did to accomplish that feat, but it worked.
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  #17  
Old 09-01-2016, 07:21 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jptheripper View Post
I don't want an app for a network, ever. I could care less what station a show is on, I just want to watch it. I don't want to go to HBO for this, showtime for that. I want to go to sage, type show name, and be done.

Sagetv exists, for me, as the anti streaming platform. That's why I love it
+1

Totally agree!
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