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Hardware Support Discussions related to using various hardware setups with SageTV products. Anything relating to capture cards, remotes, infrared receivers/transmitters, system compatibility or other hardware related problems or suggestions should be posted here.

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  #1  
Old 10-03-2008, 09:19 AM
bastian74 bastian74 is offline
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Hauppauge HD PVR before/after samples?

Does anyone have a link that shows sample output from the hauppauge?
And preferably samples recorded before the hauppauge recompressed the same clip?

I'm curious to see what the actual penalty is.
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  #2  
Old 10-03-2008, 11:40 AM
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The penalty is about $220 after shipping.



I'll see what I can do with my HDDVD of Transformers.
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  #3  
Old 10-03-2008, 01:17 PM
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Here's one example, should give a good idea of the analog input and ADC quality (though not much help evaluating encoding quality). I haven't taken the time to try something like recording the same thing OTA via an HD tuner and via the HD PVR through my sat box.

http://forums.sage.tv/forums/showthr...41&postcount=7
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  #4  
Old 10-03-2008, 03:05 PM
Chriscic Chriscic is offline
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When I first got my HD-PVR I directly compared Firewire capture (original bitstream) to a HD-PVR recording of the exact same clip. The HD-PVR recording looked nearly identical (no loss in quality that I could discern) when both were played back on my PC.

Now, one thing to note is that the original recording looked materially better on my Comcast DVR than either the firewire capture or the HD-PVR file played back on my PC.

Therefore my conclusion is the HD-PVR is recording the video nearly perfectly, but PC decoders are inferior to STB decoding. Therefore by going with the HD-PVR you will be giving up some slight (but noticeable) quality if you have a big screen (I project on a 110" screen). Also, I believe Brent Evans has noted that the HD-PVR recording quality is every bit as good as recordings from his HDHR (which also records the raw bitstream).

In particular, my Sage HD100 media extender plays back a bit softer than my cable box.

I've had all sorts of problems with my HD-PVR setup by the way, but that's not what you're asking about.

Hope that helps.
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  #5  
Old 10-08-2008, 05:54 AM
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Last night I finally got around to doing some testing.
I hooked up my HDDVD drive to my Xbox, and played Transformers (the one HDDVD I bought), and recorded Transformers from FIOS on CinemaxHD. Now I have a comparison. The only thing I haven't tried to hard on, but was unsucessfull at initially, was ripping the HDDVD for the actual raw source from the disc (only have the HDDVD drive for the 360, and it is seen by Vista, but doesn't act like an HDDVD drive in DVDFAB).
As I suspected all this time, the capture of the movie playback from the HDDVD looks really good. I would have to say in very fast scenes, there were some barely noticable blocks in smoke or some translucent materials. You had to be looking really hard, and be pretty close to the screen to notice.
As for the FIOS HD version of Transformers, there was more blockyness than my capture from the HDDVD. There is no doubt in my mind, these HDPVR's do an excellent job for what they are. And at the price we pay for them, they can't be beat.
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Last edited by mikejaner; 10-08-2008 at 05:57 AM.
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  #6  
Old 10-08-2008, 07:46 AM
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Mike,

If I understand your post correctly, you are comparing....
HDVD -> HDPVR -> SageTV -> HD Extender -> TV
FIOS -> HDPVR -> SageTV -> HD Extender -> TV

Just curious what your thoughts are for the quality comparing
HDDVD -> TV
and
HDVD -> HDPVR -> SageTV -> HD Extender -> TV
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  #7  
Old 10-08-2008, 08:27 AM
bastian74 bastian74 is offline
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If you ever manage I'd love to see
30 sec sample of action sequence

HDDVD/BD -> .TS (1080p)
HDDVD/BD -> HD PVR -> .TS (1080i)

It's probalby not fair to compare 1080i to 1080p, but I guess seeing the difference in that too would be interesting.

I suppose a real apples to apples comparison would be more like this...

OTA 1080i -> .TS
OTA 1080i -> HD PVR -> .TS

Recorded simultaniously of course, or at least the same clip.

And have the files uploaded somewhere.

I couldn't find anyone else who has done this.
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  #8  
Old 10-08-2008, 08:36 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by stuckless View Post
Mike,

If I understand your post correctly, you are comparing....
HDVD -> HDPVR -> SageTV -> HD Extender -> TV
FIOS -> HDPVR -> SageTV -> HD Extender -> TV

Just curious what your thoughts are for the quality comparing
HDDVD -> TV
and
HDVD -> HDPVR -> SageTV -> HD Extender -> TV
Yes, that's exactly what I did.
Comparing HDDVD-> TV is also something I did, but I have no way to provide that as a comparison

I am trying to figure out how to rip the HDDVD, so I can have the raw comparison. So far failure of HDDVD Drive from Xbox 360 -> HDDVD Fab Decryptor.
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  #9  
Old 10-08-2008, 08:51 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bastian74 View Post
If you ever manage I'd love to see
30 sec sample of action sequence

HDDVD/BD -> .TS (1080p)
HDDVD/BD -> HD PVR -> .TS (1080i)

It's probalby not fair to compare 1080i to 1080p, but I guess seeing the difference in that too would be interesting.

I suppose a real apples to apples comparison would be more like this...

OTA 1080i -> .TS
OTA 1080i -> HD PVR -> .TS

Recorded simultaniously of course, or at least the same clip.

And have the files uploaded somewhere.

I couldn't find anyone else who has done this.
I am currently trying to figure out how to rip my HDDVD, without buying more equipment, so we will see about the raw rip.

I have a 2 minute clip of HDDVD -> HDPVR -> .ts
There is not an easy(free) way to clip it that I can find. It runs about 170meg.

The comparison of OTA is still starting with a flawed picture. OTA signals are also compressed a certain amount, although not likely as much as what cable companies do. I notice blockiness on those also when watching OTA straight to my TV.

The reason to compare to a RAW(or as close to RAW as you can get) source, like HDDVD and BluRay, is because, those sources are not compressed, or are as close to uncompressed as you are going to get.
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  #10  
Old 10-08-2008, 08:56 AM
bastian74 bastian74 is offline
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Right, but it's also not quite fair to compare a raw hd-dvd in 1080p to the hd pvr output of 1080i

I guess it is the bottom line difference though so it's useful.

However you're measuring the quality of the hd dvd encoder as well as the difference in 1080p and 1080i so you're making two comparisons in one shot.

Or now that I think about it, 3 comparisons because you're also measuring the quality of the DAC that is outputting the component video.
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  #11  
Old 10-08-2008, 09:00 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bastian74 View Post
Right, but it's also not quite fair to compare a raw hd-dvd in 1080p to the hd pvr output of 1080i

I guess it is the bottom line difference though so it's useful.

However you're measuring the quality of the hd dvd encoder as well as the difference in 1080p and 1080i so you're making two comparisons in one shot.

Or now that I think about it, 3 comparisons because you're also measuring the quality of the DAC that is outputting the component video.
I am not outputting 1080P from the HDDVD. My Xbox is set to 1080i to level the playing field, so I am comparing the 1080i playback of an HDDVD, which looks perfect, to the recording of an 1080i input on the HDPVR.
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  #12  
Old 10-08-2008, 09:07 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bastian74 View Post
However you're measuring the quality of the hd dvd encoder as well as the difference in 1080p and 1080i so you're making two comparisons in one shot.

Or now that I think about it, 3 comparisons because you're also measuring the quality of the DAC that is outputting the component video.
Well since your getting technical, let's throw in the decoder chip on the playback device (HD100), the scaling engine in the TV (Hitachi), the air quality (PPM of particles within the field of view), and the analog to analog video processor in my head (faroudja based processor).

In all honesty, 1080i out of the Xbox, and 1080i input to the HVPVR probably covers the 99th percentile in a fair comparison.
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  #13  
Old 10-08-2008, 12:01 PM
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Quote:
Yes, that's exactly what I did.
Comparing HDDVD-> TV is also something I did, but I have no way to provide that as a comparison
I guess I'm looking for a "gut feel" or "personal perpective" rather than the imperical facts I wondering if you would easily tell the difference between the 1080p version and the HDPVR version??

I read an interesting article in Maximum PC a couple of years ago where they did a blind audio test for mp3 files vs "raw" cd. They took several people, allowed them to bring in their own CD and headphones, etc, and then they set up a blind test where they had to listen to their song in 5 different format (ranging from 64kbit->384kbit ->CD) and they had to put them in order form lowest to highest... Pretty much everyone got the 64kit, and most got the 128kbit, but at 192 and above, even the audiophiles didn't get them right.

I'd like to see such a blind test for HD video, comparing, SD, 480p, 720i, 720p, 1080i, 108p.... I knwo I have trouble telling the difference between my upconvering DVD player and my 720p videos.... I don't have HDDVD or bluray...(yet), so I can compare those...

It's funny because alot people claim to tell the difference, and it's easy to say "now that's 1080p" when you know the source is 1080p , but I wonder how many of us could really tell the difference??
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  #14  
Old 10-08-2008, 12:42 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by stuckless View Post
I guess I'm looking for a "gut feel" or "personal perpective".....
Ok, Here's MY gut feel. When I first got the HD PVR I recorded an episode of "Bones" OTA with my Haup 1800 and thru the HD PVR via my HD DirecTV receiver and watched the program thru my TV with the OTA antenna. After it was over I watched the two recordings. I could not tell the differencein the three viewings.

I recorded "Die Hard 4" in 720p and 1080i for a comparison. The recordings were both really, really good with perhaps a tad more detail in the 1080i version, but I did get a few deinterlacing jitters on diagonal high contrast lines like a black roof slope against an almost white sky.
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  #15  
Old 10-08-2008, 01:48 PM
Chriscic Chriscic is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HelenWeathers View Post
Ok, Here's MY gut feel. When I first got the HD PVR I recorded an episode of "Bones" OTA with my Haup 1800 and thru the HD PVR via my HD DirecTV receiver and watched the program thru my TV with the OTA antenna. After it was over I watched the two recordings. I could not tell the differencein the three viewings.
What PC decoder were you using for the playback of the HD-PVR recording? Also how big is your TV?

The HD-PVR playback from either my PC (arcsoft decoder which came with the HD-PVR) or my HD100 extender looks great but is definitely noticeably softer than the same played directly from my cable box. Even my wife can see this plainly. It's easiest to see when you have text on the screen (ala CNN HD scrolling text at the bottom) but you can see it on video too in the details.
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  #16  
Old 10-08-2008, 02:08 PM
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I think the best way to do this is to record a file using clear QAM and record that SAME recording, at the same resolution, through the STB using the HD-PVR.
I just ordered an HD-PVR and it should be here by Friday. I will run a few tests and up them as soon as it is hooked up.
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  #17  
Old 10-08-2008, 02:09 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chriscic View Post
What PC decoder were you using for the playback of the HD-PVR recording? Also how big is your TV?
Decoder: Actually I'm assuming that Sage is using my default decoder (nVidia PureVideo HD) as I changed nothing in my Sage setup except to go to Overlay instead of VMR9(?sp).

TV: 52" Samsung LCD 750 series.

EDIT: On the softness, my TV sets up each input separately and remembers each's setting. It took me a while to get the same black level contrast etc but now can't see any diff even in the yellow on black crawl from CNN. More specifically:
DirecTV HDMI > TV HDMI1 as reference
OTA TV Tuner adjusted to match reference
DirecTV YPbPr > HD PVR > Computer > TV HDMI2 adjusted to match reference
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Last edited by HelenWeathers; 10-08-2008 at 02:26 PM.
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  #18  
Old 10-08-2008, 02:33 PM
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How do I record the same show on two (or more) tuners simultaneously? (So that I can do a head-to-head)
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  #19  
Old 10-08-2008, 02:39 PM
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Tag a couple of manual recordings. You could always just change the channel on the STB with the remote if nothing else.
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  #20  
Old 10-08-2008, 02:45 PM
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I think you can record the same channel on multiple tuners using Timed Recordings.

- Andy
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