SageTV Community  

Go Back   SageTV Community > General Discussion > General Discussion

Notices

General Discussion General discussion about SageTV and related companies, products, and technologies.

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
  #1  
Old 10-20-2013, 09:00 AM
will will is offline
Sage Fanatic
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: New York
Posts: 797
Smile SageTV Still the Best

So I just read a review of the "affordable" version of a high-end multi-media system (Kaleidescape’s Cinema One) and my general impression was "wow, so many restrictions and so not worth the cost." Our SageTV systems can do what it does and a lot more.

Still loving my SageTV system. It is, by far, the best HTPC solution out there. I sometimes wonder if the SageTV guys ever regret selling to Google and losing control of their baby. I always wished they just licensed SageTV to Google and continued development (and perhaps trying to break into the cable box world...) while still keeping the HTPC side active (for ideas and inspiration).

I know history hasn't proven this, but I still feel like their is a market for SageTV like products that do double duty: the people like us (HTPC people) and software that can be an amazing front-end for consumer devices (cable boxes, etc.).
__________________
Will

OS: Windows 7
Hardware: Intel Core i7-920 with 12GB RAM & an Adaptec 5805 with a Chenbro 36-port SAS Expander
Case: Antec 1200 with 4 iStarUSA trayless hot-swap cages (20 drives max)
Drives: 8 Toshiba/Hitachi 2TB drives in a RAID 6 & 7 Toshiba 3TB drives in a RAID 6
Capture Cards: HDHomeRun Connect Quatro 4, Hauppauge 60 HD-PVR
Players: 5 HD300s, 2 HD200s, 1 Client, 1 MiniClient
Reply With Quote
  #2  
Old 10-20-2013, 09:40 AM
lamanmi's Avatar
lamanmi lamanmi is offline
Sage Advanced User
 
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: Kirtland, Ohio
Posts: 197
Will,

I cannot agree more!!
__________________
LaManSoft - InControl For Sage and HomeSeer
Reply With Quote
  #3  
Old 10-20-2013, 12:30 PM
reggie14 reggie14 is offline
SageTVaholic
 
Join Date: Aug 2003
Location: Maryland
Posts: 2,759
The Kaleidescape’s big restriction is from DRM, which Sage is able to ignore by having you bypass the DRM before importing media.

It leads to a silly system where you can rip a blu-ray, but you have to have the disc in the system to actually play it. I assume that functionality is mostly there to encourage folks to "upgrade" to the digital copy that they sell.
Reply With Quote
  #4  
Old 10-21-2013, 01:24 PM
nyplayer nyplayer is offline
SageTVaholic
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Posts: 4,054
I am starting to lose favor in SageTV. I found out I was missing... on about 5 Movie Channels and about 3 sport channels ( I am sure there are Others) simply because It cannot do copy once.

I was getting ready to enjoy NBATV and sure enough cannot watch it. Since I have all Network Tuners and PC Clients... I have Setup WMC on all 3 clients... so pretty soon I might be saying Good Bye to Sagetv. If I decide to Invest in another Prime and return some Cable Boxes I will definitely leave SageTV.
__________________
Windows 10 I3 Dual Core 3.0 Server, SageTV9... OpenDCT with 2 HDHRPrimes and 4 HDHRconnects for a total of 14 Tuners.
Reply With Quote
  #5  
Old 10-21-2013, 02:44 PM
BobPhoenix BobPhoenix is offline
SageTVaholic
 
Join Date: Oct 2004
Posts: 3,133
Quote:
Originally Posted by nyplayer View Post
I am starting to lose favor in SageTV. I found out I was missing... on about 5 Movie Channels and about 3 sport channels ( I am sure there are Others) simply because It cannot do copy once.
That's what a HD-PVR is for! WMC is too restrictive. I would rather record from analog signal in a format freely copyable anywhere. Expensive because of the STB's but then I can put the archived recordings on an unRAID box and watch anytime. If I watched and deleted I would probably just go to DVR from cable/satellite company.
Reply With Quote
  #6  
Old 10-21-2013, 03:17 PM
stanger89's Avatar
stanger89 stanger89 is offline
SageTVaholic
 
Join Date: May 2003
Location: Marion, IA
Posts: 15,186
Quote:
Originally Posted by will View Post
So I just read a review of the "affordable" version of a high-end multi-media system (Kaleidescape’s Cinema One) and my general impression was "wow, so many restrictions and so not worth the cost." Our SageTV systems can do what it does and a lot more.
You have to remember a few things:
  1. SageTV can't rip DVDs or Blu-rays
  2. SageTV doesn't have BD menu support
  3. SageTV's metadata is crowdsourced (not as robust/reliable as Kscapes)
  4. SageTV doesn't have the sort of HA integration (eg, Kscapes database has real measured aspect ratios to perfectly position screen masking)
  5. SageTV's hardware is, I'll say 90% baked. I have to reboot my HD300 quite a bit, if you're talking native output switching and audio bitstreaming I'd say half baked.


Of course even more important than all of those is Kscape as AACS/BD+/CSS licenses to support full BD/DVD functionality (including ripping), and as such has to live within the restrictions of those license agreements. Kscape is the only product of the type with such licenses, and (as far as I'm aware) the only one in that segment with real hardware players.

Cost no object, I'd dump Sage for Kaleidescape (for movies) in a heartbeat. Unfortunately for me the value proposition just isn't there for Kscape.

Quote:
Still loving my SageTV system. It is, by far, the best HTPC solution out there. I sometimes wonder if the SageTV guys ever regret selling to Google and losing control of their baby. I always wished they just licensed SageTV to Google and continued development (and perhaps trying to break into the cable box world...) while still keeping the HTPC side active (for ideas and inspiration).
That's a tough one, they probably didn't have a choice in the matter, I mean it was probably all or nothing.

Of course the other thing is I wonder if Jeff/SageTV saw the writing on the wall. I think the PC DVR market is shrinking, every other commercial PC DVR has been abandoned (BeyondTV, WMC). Maybe not ideologically, or for the community, but I think Jeff made the right choice taking the offer when he did (hopefully he was smart investing the "windfall") since I think otherwise Sage would have died a slow death/slowly faded away into irrelevance with the rest of the PC DVRs.

Quote:
I know history hasn't proven this, but I still feel like their is a market for SageTV like products that do double duty: the people like us (HTPC people) and software that can be an amazing front-end for consumer devices (cable boxes, etc.).
There's a market, though I'm not sure it's big enough to support a for-profit enterprise, of course the other rub is that cable boxes and PC DVRs have rather wildly differing requirements. I haven't followed closely but it sounds like Google Fiber's hardware/software hasn't been getting the warmest welcome.
Reply With Quote
  #7  
Old 10-21-2013, 03:42 PM
Skybolt's Avatar
Skybolt Skybolt is offline
Sage Icon
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Annapolis, MD
Posts: 1,027
Quote:
Originally Posted by nyplayer View Post
... I was getting ready to enjoy NBATV and sure enough cannot watch it. Since I have all Network Tuners and PC Clients... I have Setup WMC on all 3 clients... so pretty soon I might be saying Good Bye to Sagetv. If I decide to Invest in another Prime and return some Cable Boxes I will definitely leave SageTV.
Now you know why I "had" to leave ... I feel your pain, on both sides.
Reply With Quote
  #8  
Old 10-21-2013, 03:59 PM
nyplayer nyplayer is offline
SageTVaholic
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Posts: 4,054
Quote:
Originally Posted by Skybolt View Post
Now you know why I "had" to leave ... I feel your pain, on both sides.
Yeah I am already planning my SageTV departure Setting up my Shares and WMC recording Pool. I rather Invest on another Prime than a HD-PVR. I already have my Server and Clients running 8.1 with WMC. I just do not see a need for SageTV any longer.
__________________
Windows 10 I3 Dual Core 3.0 Server, SageTV9... OpenDCT with 2 HDHRPrimes and 4 HDHRconnects for a total of 14 Tuners.
Reply With Quote
  #9  
Old 10-21-2013, 05:07 PM
sflamm sflamm is offline
Sage Icon
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Posts: 1,650
Quote:
Yeah I am already planning my SageTV departure Setting up my Shares and WMC recording Pool.
Problem is WMC is not a real client-server solution...
This has a few important negative side-effects:

1. you will only be able to setup recordings on one box (not from the TV you happen to be watching)
2. the other WMC instances are simply pointing at the media directories... there is a lag between when these instance update their POV on the media (can show items that have been deleted for a while, can not show items that are indeed recording until a little while)
3. No live TV on the other WMC instances unless you allow the HDHR to be shared... which will cause problem since the number of available tuners to the WMC instance that is recording is dynamically changing without WMC's knowlege (hence the need to only record from one location)

And many other annoyances dealing with BD playback, lack of codec support, meta data, etc.

I used to run a setup like this with a half-dozen clients throughout the house... not much has changed since that time since MSFT basically abandoned it...

The Xbox 360's are now abandoned clients as well... as the new Xbox One will *not* be a WMC client. And even the XBox 360's have significant playback limitations... though some have apparently been lifted... but you still have to convert everything constantly to support them (which is quite painful).

Bottom line - I dont see a true replacement for SageTV yet...
The most promising in my opinion is SageTV server backend with XBMC front-ends...
Reply With Quote
  #10  
Old 10-21-2013, 05:10 PM
sflamm sflamm is offline
Sage Icon
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Posts: 1,650
Oh and a $4000 Kaleidescape’s Cinema One is a joke...
For half that cost you can have an array of state-of the art small form factor SageTV/XMBC clients and a state-of-the-art Xeon based Win 2012 server with a full RAID 5 with hot-swap trays and unlimited storage.

Quote:
1. SageTV can't rip DVDs or Blu-rays
SageTV doesn't have BD menu support
One word - AnyDVDHD.
Been around forever...
Reply With Quote
  #11  
Old 10-21-2013, 05:39 PM
KryptoNyte's Avatar
KryptoNyte KryptoNyte is offline
Sage Icon
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Posts: 2,152
I run the Ceton 4-tuner PCIe model with WMC7 beside SageTV. I'm with Time Warner, so of course you can't do anything with most of the WMC7 content, commercial cutting, archiving, etc. In fact, if you have a significant amount of any programs recorded and saved, and have virtually any hardware problem, you can pretty much kiss those saved programs goodbye due to the encryption.
Reply With Quote
  #12  
Old 10-21-2013, 06:06 PM
nyplayer nyplayer is offline
SageTVaholic
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Posts: 4,054
Quote:
Originally Posted by sflamm View Post
Problem is WMC is not a real client-server solution...
This has a few important negative side-effects:

1. you will only be able to setup recordings on one box (not from the TV you happen to be watching)
2. the other WMC instances are simply pointing at the media directories... there is a lag between when these instance update their POV on the media (can show items that have been deleted for a while, can not show items that are indeed recording until a little while)
3. No live TV on the other WMC instances unless you allow the HDHR to be shared... which will cause problem since the number of available tuners to the WMC instance that is recording is dynamically changing without WMC's knowlege (hence the need to only record from one location)

And many other annoyances dealing with BD playback, lack of codec support, meta data, etc.

I used to run a setup like this with a half-dozen clients throughout the house... not much has changed since that time since MSFT basically abandoned it...

The Xbox 360's are now abandoned clients as well... as the new Xbox One will *not* be a WMC client. And even the XBox 360's have significant playback limitations... though some have apparently been lifted... but you still have to convert everything constantly to support them (which is quite painful).

Bottom line - I dont see a true replacement for SageTV yet...
The most promising in my opinion is SageTV server backend with XBMC front-ends...
I understand all that but right now I prefer watching the protected... channels ... I am a sport freak and Most of the Sports is protected. NBATV Football Network etc... so this far outweighs anything SageTV currently has to offer. I recently upgraded my TV package so I can watch these channels. Most of the TV I record is OTA or QAM broadcast channels.

PS I was able to record something copyfreely on WMC server and Immediately watch on my Client... No Lag maybe it is because all my machines are on Windows 8.1.
__________________
Windows 10 I3 Dual Core 3.0 Server, SageTV9... OpenDCT with 2 HDHRPrimes and 4 HDHRconnects for a total of 14 Tuners.

Last edited by nyplayer; 10-21-2013 at 06:10 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #13  
Old 10-21-2013, 06:09 PM
sflamm sflamm is offline
Sage Icon
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Posts: 1,650
Why not simply use HDPVR 1212s and STBs with custom channel guides that only record your sports channels (wont be grabbed to tune anything else)
Reply With Quote
  #14  
Old 10-21-2013, 06:13 PM
nyplayer nyplayer is offline
SageTVaholic
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Posts: 4,054
Quote:
Originally Posted by sflamm View Post
Why not simply use HDPVR 1212s and STBs with custom channel guides that only record your sports channels (wont be grabbed to tune anything else)
I plan on Getting Rid of most of my boxes its cheaper to have cable card.... Keep 1 on the main TV for on Demand etc... I also do not want to buy an HD-PVR I do not see a need for it. The Prime is much better I can watch the Protected channels on any WMC PC.
__________________
Windows 10 I3 Dual Core 3.0 Server, SageTV9... OpenDCT with 2 HDHRPrimes and 4 HDHRconnects for a total of 14 Tuners.

Last edited by nyplayer; 10-21-2013 at 06:21 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #15  
Old 10-21-2013, 06:16 PM
Skybolt's Avatar
Skybolt Skybolt is offline
Sage Icon
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Annapolis, MD
Posts: 1,027
Quote:
Originally Posted by sflamm View Post
Problem is WMC is not a real client-server solution...
This has a few important negative side-effects:

1. you will only be able to setup recordings on one box (not from the TV you happen to be watching)...
Simply not true at all. I use a 360 4gb slom, and quite frequently do this while in bed falling a sleep.
Reply With Quote
  #16  
Old 10-21-2013, 06:27 PM
sflamm sflamm is offline
Sage Icon
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Posts: 1,650
You misunderstood what I wrote. Point number
#1 - 3 all referred to using multiple instances of WMC (desktop clients)

Of course the Xbox ( only possible extender not counting Ceton echo crap) can chat with single WMC instance and play recorded TV and set recordings. Of course that is about all it can do. It is factually quite limited in almost all other aspects ... Ugh. And are you really putting a giant (large) expensive Xbox next to every TV? Much better off with micro itx based WMC which is a lot more useful in all regards minus the ability to set recordings.
Reply With Quote
  #17  
Old 10-21-2013, 07:06 PM
Skybolt's Avatar
Skybolt Skybolt is offline
Sage Icon
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Annapolis, MD
Posts: 1,027
Quote:
Originally Posted by sflamm View Post
You misunderstood what I wrote. Point number
#1 - 3 all referred to using multiple instances of WMC (desktop clients)

Of course the Xbox ( only possible extender not counting Ceton echo crap) can chat with single WMC instance and play recorded TV and set recordings. Of course that is about all it can do. It is factually quite limited in almost all other aspects ... Ugh. And are you really putting a giant (large) expensive Xbox next to every TV? Much better off with micro itx based WMC which is a lot more useful in all regards minus the ability to set recordings.
Yep 360's around hidden in cabinets and such, but are used as extenders. Not quite sure what you mean by iTx WMC, if you mean independent mce boxes?, that makes no sense as you would loose recorded tv shaing. But you can schedule shows from any 360 just fine.

I have two setups, one in my theater (silent) with four clients (4gb slims). I really only watch movies in my theater, so I am not concerned with what ripped content plays on the extender, although the 360 does DVD rips quite well.

The second is a VM and the kids use that with their 360's and love it. But to each his own, I guess.

I am quite happy with this setup, and not sorry I left sage. Although it was really good while it lasted for me, which is why I still frequeant the boards.
Reply With Quote
  #18  
Old 10-21-2013, 08:11 PM
davenlr davenlr is offline
Sage Advanced User
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Posts: 149
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wayneb View Post
I just saw this story today
http://www.cepro.com/article/fox_hom..._medium=module

About time they figured this out.
Ive already got a 8TB solution...have had for two+ years. Waiting on them to make the BluRay's downloadable
__________________
Sage 7 on Win8.1 i7 6TB server, 1 gig network, HD Homerun
Reply With Quote
  #19  
Old 10-22-2013, 01:15 AM
panteragstk's Avatar
panteragstk panteragstk is offline
SageTVaholic
 
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: New Braunfels, TX
Posts: 3,311
Colossus + Directv + OTA + Sagetv= I can watch anything I want with no restriction.

I don't have bad recordings. I don't have to deal with another dead product (WMC). I don't have to switch to laughably terrible/expensive TWC to use cable card. I have true clients and can make more. I don't have to use another MS product to use/schedule recordings (360) and have something else to play movies. I can manipulate sagetv menus to literally do anything I want.

Xbox 1 doesn't support WMC at all so why invest in a dead platform that doesn't even do everything I want it to? You have to have an xbox live subscription for your netflix/amazon subscription to be usable.

Roku is by far the best streaming solution. I select roku from my sage menu and it switches inputs for me and lets me control my roku with the same remote as sage. Seamless. WMC can't do that (probably )

I won't be leaving sage any time soon. If I did it would be to some sort of directv dvr + dune streamer or something similar. No more PC clients. I like my pc clients, but they are made specifically for sage. Another software platform would work, but I haven't found one that does everything I want it to.
__________________
SageTV Server: unRAID Docker v9, S2600CPJ, Norco 24 hot swap bay case, 2x Xeon 2670, 64 GB DDR3, 3x Colossus for DirecTV, HDHR for OTA
Living room: nVidia Shield TV, Sage Mini Client, 65" Panasonic VT60
Bedroom: Xiomi Mi Box, Sage Mini Client, 42" Panasonic PZ800u
Theater: nVidia Shield TV, mini client, Plex for movies, 120" screen. Mitsubishi HC4000. Denon X4300H. 7.4.4 speaker setup.
Reply With Quote
  #20  
Old 10-22-2013, 05:43 AM
stanger89's Avatar
stanger89 stanger89 is offline
SageTVaholic
 
Join Date: May 2003
Location: Marion, IA
Posts: 15,186
Quote:
Originally Posted by sflamm View Post
Oh and a $4000 Kaleidescape’s Cinema One is a joke...
For half that cost you can have an array of state-of the art small form factor SageTV/XMBC clients and a state-of-the-art Xeon based Win 2012 server with a full RAID 5 with hot-swap trays and unlimited storage.
And self managed metadata and no support.

Quote:
One word - AnyDVDHD.
Been around forever...
Yeah, that's what I use, but SageTV nor XBMC can actually do the ripping for you, you have to do that yourself. Now granted it's not that hard and it does open up some options (movie only, or compression to save space), but it's not as nice or integrated as being able to pop a disk in a player (or the vault) and have it happen automatically.

Oh, and AnyDVD doesn't give SageTV or XBMC Blu-ray menus.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Wayneb View Post
I just saw this story today
http://www.cepro.com/article/fox_hom..._medium=module

About time they figured this out.
The ability to copy Blu-rays was supposed to exist from the beginning:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Advance...m#Managed_Copy

Of course if you look at Kaleidescape, to conform to the BD license agreement it requires the disc you watch be present in the system (either a player or the Vault), I wonder how Fox plans to deal with that, since Fox is one of the staunchest advocates of DRM (being essentially the company that pushed BD+).

I realize Fox != CSS LA, but it seem hypocritical for Fox to be pushing/supporting local, off-disk storage of movies while CSS LA is trying to shut Kaleidescape, the only company with the licenses necessary, that is already doing exactly that.

Quote:
Originally Posted by davenlr View Post
Ive already got a 8TB solution...have had for two+ years. Waiting on them to make the BluRay's downloadable
You can:
https://store.kaleidescape.com/movies/details/9795621

Or maybe I should say it's possible.
Reply With Quote
Reply


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -6. The time now is 08:33 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2019, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Copyright 2003-2005 SageTV, LLC. All rights reserved.