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  #21  
Old 09-09-2010, 11:34 AM
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Have you got a link to the plugin?
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  #22  
Old 09-09-2010, 11:41 AM
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I did not find a link, it is in the plugin manager of SageTV 7.
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  #23  
Old 09-09-2010, 11:43 AM
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Does anyone know what this plugin is called, and if it would work with us 6.6 troglodytes?
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  #24  
Old 09-09-2010, 10:05 PM
Rico66 Rico66 is offline
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The plugin is called "Remove padding on back to back manual recordings conflicts".
It takes care of this annoying bug that doesn't allow you to mark back to back manual recordings, if you only have one tuner and use padding.
I don't know, if this is available for 6.x
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  #25  
Old 09-15-2010, 06:38 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sdsean View Post
actually i think there is a bug with the auto remove padding on back to back shows...

if you have this turned on it does not allow padding to be added at the end of the last show in queue, which is wrong

the feature is intended to save a tuner, which works just fine, but its also removing the ending padding on the last show on the same channel even though there is nothing after it....it should only remove the pre-padding, not both...guess i should file a bug
I filed a bug report also on this issue: when you select the option to "remove padding on back to back Favorites on the same channel", it will surely remove the padding between the favorites but will also remove the padding at the end of the last show if you happen to create a manual recording on the same channel.

Ok fine, why not... BUT : if you have any padding on the manual recording, it will not remove it. So SageTV will still use two tuners for recording the Fav and the Manual rec.

Consequently if you don't pay attention you can loose the end of one of your show in the favorites...

I do think it is a bug, but apparently SageTV will only "reword" the settings so that it show it applies to Favorites AND Manual recordings.

What do you think?

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  #26  
Old 09-15-2010, 08:31 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by StephaneM View Post
Ok fine, why not... BUT : if you have any padding on the manual recording, it will not remove it. So SageTV will still use two tuners for recording the Fav and the Manual rec.

Consequently if you don't pay attention you can loose the end of one of your show in the favorites...
I don't know if there are any plans to change anything in the core, but in your example, what is being lost?

It does look like the padding was removed even though the Fav was scheduled to record on a 2nd tuner when the MR had start padding, but the Fav is still scheduled to record through the end of its airing timeslot. If it had been followed by another Fav or a MR w/o start padding, both recordings would have had their overlapped padding areas removed in order to use a single tuner when the option remove padding for back to back Favorites on the same channel is enabled, so the first airing would still end up with no end padding. I don't see anything lost either way this is handled.

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  #27  
Old 09-16-2010, 04:15 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Opus4 View Post
I don't know if there are any plans to change anything in the core, but in your example, what is being lost?
The last 10 min of CSI...

A favorites was scheduled for CSI with -10 / +15 padding (you have to think about other countries were airing time is often largely overrun)

And I scheduled a recording for the show following CSI (an entertainment show, not a series, and I have no reason to make it a Favorites), this show was also padded -5 / +15

The airing schedule was:

CSI episode 1: 20:50 -> 21:50
CSI episode 2: 21:50 -> 22:50
Other Show : 22:50 -> 00:00

As this behavior is new in V7 I trusted SageTV to do what it should have recorded :

CSI ep 1 from 20:40 -> 21:50 on Tuner 1
CSI ep 2 from 21:50 -> 23:05 on Tuner 1
Other Show from : 22:45 -> 00:15 on Tuner 2

And this is exactly what SageTV have done except one little tiny details:

CSI ep 1 rec. from 20:40 to 21:50 on Tuner 1 => Ok
CSI ep 2 rec. from 21:50 to 22:50 on Tuner 1 => NOT OK
Other Show rec. from 22:45 to 00:15 => Ok

So I trusted SageTV, watched the "Other Show" a few minutes after it begin to record, and when the show ended, I deleted it (I have no reason to keep this show ever...), now you see why I have lost the end of the CSI ep 2.. It was actually recorded on the "Other Show" file as the CSI ep. was running late, but I DO USE PADDING for this very reason : Record show in their own files and not having to remember that a little bit of CSI is to be found on the recording of Smallville or whatever...

Quote:
It does look like the padding was removed even though the Fav was scheduled to record on a 2nd tuner when the MR had start padding, but the Fav is still scheduled to record through the end of its airing timeslot.
You are completely wrong. The favorites was scheduled on a single tuner and always had (that's the point of the "removing padding...." option). The Fav. was scheduled to record with padding (start and end) until the manual rec. was scheduled (wether this manual rec. had padding or not). The manual rec is naturally scheduled to record on another tuner

Quote:
If it had been followed by another Fav or a MR w/o start padding, both recordings would have had their overlapped padding areas removed in order to use a single tuner when the option remove padding for back to back Favorites on the same channel is enabled, so the first airing would still end up with no end padding. I don't see anything lost either way this is handled.
"Remove Padding for BACK TO BACK FAVORITES on the same channel". I don't see here anything about manual recordings... If the favorites were followed by another favorites, padding is removed Ok this is exactly what the option is supposed to do (even if I request a long time agon an option to do this only for favorites of the same show only... this is far more useful for French users...)

If I used a Manual Recordin for recording the show after CSI there is a reason.... To not have the padding removed...

Now with this extra super smart padding removing (that is done for NOTHING as SageTV still use two tuners) you don't have a choice at all. So I guess I will stop using this feature alltogether

But you'll have support call for this no doubt because :

* If you don't know this is happening, you'll find out too late that something is wrong with a recording
* There is NO WAY to override this. So in my previous example either I start recording the "Other Show" with +15 min padding, or I have to keep "Other Show" until I finally watch "CSI ep 2" (this is totally ridiculous, as I have to remembre where did the end of CSI is recorded....)

So IMHO you should offer progressive padding removing options as:

1) Remove padding on back to back Favorites (implied : only for consecutive shows of the SAME favorites)

2) Remove padding on back to back Favorites on the same channel (implied :
remove padding when conflicts exists with different favorites on the same
channel)

3) Remove padding on back to back recordings on the same channel (implied :
remove padding on consecutive recordings on the same channel whether it is a favorite rec. or manual rec.)

4) Adjust padding automatically for conflicting back to back recordings on any channels (implied : add / remove 1 min. max to the first rec. to allow recording of the second show when no tuners are available)

So like a multiple choices settings:

Remove or Adjust Padding for :
* Back to back episodes of a favorites (more conflicts)
* Back to back favorites on same channel .
* Back to back rec. on same channel .
* Back to back rec. on any channels (less conflicts)


But it's your call on this. For me this is really a step backward. I would have now this beforehand I would never have upgraded to V7, as with V6 this was not the case and I don't see why doing this now is useful in any ways...

Regards,
Stéphane.
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  #28  
Old 09-16-2010, 10:30 AM
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From your explanation of what happened, the end of your show wasn't actually lost; it was included in the Manual Recording's scheduled air time (not within its start padding). This would have also happened if the Fav had been followed by another Fav on the same channel & the padding between them was removed to keep it all on a single tuner. (Yes, I understand what you are saying about the MR being on a different tuner in this case; I'm only pointing out that the missed time was still recorded somewhere in this situation regardless of how the core handles it in the future.)

Since you say that the networks in your area don't care about following their own published schedule and thus padding is extremely important, I suggest that you should not use the option to remove padding. That option is useful if the schedule is realistic but may be off a minute or so because of clock differences; it is not that useful if the networks air things whenever they want and extraordinary padding is required for any possibility of recording the entire show. In that situation, I'm guessing that there are fewer shows where it is safe to remove the padding between them than where it is not safe to do so.

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  #29  
Old 09-16-2010, 10:45 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Opus4 View Post
From your explanation of what happened, the end of your show wasn't actually lost; it was included in the Manual Recording's scheduled air time (not within its start padding). This would have also happened if the Fav had been followed by another Fav on the same channel & the padding between them was removed to keep it all on a single tuner. (Yes, I understand what you are saying about the MR being on a different tuner in this case; I'm only pointing out that the missed time was still recorded somewhere in this situation regardless of how the core handles it in the future.)
The option is called "remove padding on back to back FAVORITES"... In this situation padding was removed between a Favorite and Manual Recording.

The show content was lost because I shouldn't have to keep track on what's get recorded on each file. I pad show for a very good reason.

Quote:
Since you say that the networks in your area don't care about following their own published schedule and thus padding is extremely important, I suggest that you should not use the option to remove padding. That option is useful if the schedule is realistic but may be off a minute or so because of clock differences; it is not that useful if the networks air things whenever they want and extraordinary padding is required for any possibility of recording the entire show. In that situation, I'm guessing that there are fewer shows where it is safe to remove the padding between them than where it is not safe to do so.
SageTV V6 handled this situation perefectly... SageTV V7 don't... I never had to complain about how SageTV V6 schedule was handled. If V7 is stepping backward again that's your call. I explained what IMHO would be a step forward : having multiple options to choose from, if you don't think it's useful, I will accept that though you cannot justify honestly that SageTV V7 is removing a padding in this case when it doesn't free the tuner effectively for the following recording. So for me this is clearly a bug : SageTV removed a padding WITHOUT any benefits gained whatsoever (except frustrating the user - me - which trusted the schedule in the first place).

In this particular case I could very well do without the option "remove padding..." because I have enough tuners to handle conflicts. Though I have one tuner for PayTV and I cannot justify adding another tuner (which would cost 200 $ + 20 $ per month for the additional subscriber card...)

Regards,
Stéphane.
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  #30  
Old 09-16-2010, 11:28 AM
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Stephane,

I can tell you for certain that this behavior existed in V6 as well. That change was made back in V2 and was modified in V6.5.14 to deal with overlaps a little differently. We are going to change this though so that if you have a ManualRecording overlapping that is not based on a Favorite, then the padding for the Favorite won't be removed. This would fix the case you submitted.
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  #31  
Old 09-16-2010, 11:40 AM
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Jeff, would you care to comment on the feasibility of overlapped padding using a single tuner, by writing the same stream content to both recording files simultaneously? Seems to me this would moot any complaints about padding removal, since there'd be no reason to remove padding anymore.
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  #32  
Old 09-16-2010, 11:45 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GKusnick View Post
Jeff, would you care to comment on the feasibility of overlapped padding using a single tuner, by writing the same stream content to both recording files simultaneously? Seems to me this would moot any complaints about padding removal, since there'd be no reason to remove padding anymore.
That would make a dream come true for me.
I only have one tuner and when I record two back to back episodes of the Simpsons I sometimes have the end of episode 1 at the beginning of file 2 or the beginning of episode 2 at the end of file 1.
Using a +5/-5 minute padding the overlapping 5 minutes would be in both files ...
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Last edited by owilsky; 09-16-2010 at 11:46 AM. Reason: fix typos
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  #33  
Old 09-16-2010, 02:12 PM
BobPhoenix BobPhoenix is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GKusnick View Post
Jeff, would you care to comment on the feasibility of overlapped padding using a single tuner, by writing the same stream content to both recording files simultaneously? Seems to me this would moot any complaints about padding removal, since there'd be no reason to remove padding anymore.
+1 for me on this IDEA!!!!
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  #34  
Old 09-16-2010, 04:06 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by owilsky View Post
That would make a dream come true for me.
I only have one tuner and when I record two back to back episodes of the Simpsons I sometimes have the end of episode 1 at the beginning of file 2 or the beginning of episode 2 at the end of file 1.
Using a +5/-5 minute padding the overlapping 5 minutes would be in both files ...
Me too. At this point, the handling of padding is probably my #1 complaint with Sage (followed closely by the lack of dynamic menu support in v7). This problem where the last minute or two of one episode gets chopped off and recorded at the beginning of something else happens an awful lot. And what makes it really frustrating is that there is a period of several seconds during that transition that gets completely lost as Sage re-tunes the channel and sets up the new recording. NBC on Thursday nights does this every single time (Community, Parks & Recreation, The Office, 30 Rock all run about 1-2 minutes over their time slots every single week during the regular season, so I know I have to watch these episodes in the order they aired or be careful not to delete one until I'm sure I've seen the others).

If it is possible, splitting the stream to two separate files would be my first choice as a fix for this problem.

Second choice would be to change the conflict resolution to only remove padding if it was necessary to resolve a conflict.
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  #35  
Old 09-16-2010, 04:39 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Narflex View Post
I can tell you for certain that this behavior existed in V6 as well. That change was made back in V2 and was modified in V6.5.14 to deal with overlaps a little differently.
In 6.6.xx I never had this issue; though my tuner setup was not the same than in V7 (with my new recorder plug-in I created virtual tuners, so that when SageTV think it use two tuners, it actually only use one)

Quote:
We are going to change this though so that if you have a ManualRecording overlapping that is not based on a Favorite, then the padding for the Favorite won't be removed. This would fix the case you submitted.
Ok, I think it was an important issue to resolve, not sure I understand fully "Manual Recording not based on a Favorite"....

Otherwise, I rather agree with others there should be multiple padding options.

In USA, if I understand correctly, shows are mostly on time, but networks plays with +1 / -1 to entitle you to stay on the network.

In Europe the situation is really not the same:

1) EPG data is not coming directly from the network, it is reworked a lot by EPG editor. For instance two printed program guide can have different airing time (+5 / -5) also users can get EPG from various sources : XMLTV / OTA data, not always accurate and reliable

2) Networks are often airing multiple episodes of the same series (same season) back to back (from 2 to 4 episodes at the same time)

3) Networks use a lot of short programs (1mn30s) in between "real" show : to maximize the number of partners exposed => these not being counted as commercials and to adjust airing time if needed

4) Ads in shows are regulated, it is different from each country, but for instance in France, broadcasters are allowed one single 6 min ad break per movie (or two breaks if the movie duration is more than 1h30 min). As a consequence broadcasters are not giving the real airing time because commercial length is not included in the program duration when forwarded to EPG editors. So what's accurate is the start time of a show at a begining of a network time slot (for instance a time slot is 18h = access prime time 20h = new time slot, 20h50 = prime time, 23h00 = 2nd half of evening), each time slot is allowed a total commercial duration that the network can distribute with some constraints. So at 20h50 the broadcasters will air 3 episode of CSI, for this shows and time slot the broadcasters is allowed 15 min of commercials. The only thing you know for sure is that CSI episodes will usually fit exactly in the 20h50 -> 23h00 timeslot but you can't now for sure at what time the 2nd and 3rd episode will begin, the padding for this start / end time is exactly the length of the allowed commercials... So you see it's not that simple (I'm not sure of this but I do think that broadcasters are adjusting in real time the length of the commercials based on the performance of the audience at least on some shows)

So you see sometimes it's good to have options to fit multiple scenario. For instance Oliver wants to have padding for each back to back show to be sure that each show fits on one file => this is is preference. On the other hand I don't want to do this, I do prefer back to back shows (of the same show) to not have padding and be watched one after another (like in a playlist), it's easier to use for me as you don't have to rewind / fastforward to find the begining of the 2nd back to back show

Regards,
Stéphane.
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  #36  
Old 09-16-2010, 05:23 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GKusnick View Post
Jeff, would you care to comment on the feasibility of overlapped padding using a single tuner, by writing the same stream content to both recording files simultaneously? Seems to me this would moot any complaints about padding removal, since there'd be no reason to remove padding anymore.
Sounds good in theory, but it would be horribly complex to implement something like this and would require a major rewrite of the whole scheduling/recording system since it would break some basic rules used in how that system works.
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  #37  
Old 12-14-2010, 02:52 AM
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I call shens.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Narflex View Post
Sounds good in theory, but it would be horribly complex to implement something like this and would require a major rewrite of the whole scheduling/recording system since it would break some basic rules used in how that system works.
This does not make sense to me. Should be independent of scheduling. At some point your code knows its time to start up another recording on a specific channel. Why not just check to see if you already have a recording happening on that channel and then record both programs in your routine/function... Yes, I don't have your code and thus cannot say for certainty but I believe it would be a bit of work and sounds like no one wants to do it.

You would be saving your customers a lot of money on hardware by implementing it. As it stands now, my only choice is to buy more tuners to work around the software not utilizing my existing hardware efficiently.

I'm waiting on my Ceton cards (SageMCTuner) to come now. I had to order two so I would have 8 tuners (tunersalad) just because you don't support this. Yes I sometimes record more than 4 shows at a time. I save up for a rainy day (translated I hate ##$@@@ reality tv filler).

I would rather have invested some of that extra $400 into your company instead of Ceton.
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  #38  
Old 02-14-2011, 02:06 PM
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I would also love to see this implemented.

I recently swapped from Mediaportal to use extenders. The Mediaportal team were able to program their software to have the ability to record every channel on 1 mux using only one card, since they must have figured out that when the tv tuner is tuned to a mux it can receive all channels on that mux.

The combination of this means with two tuners, you very rarely get any conflicts.

I however have no idea how complicated this would be to implement.
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  #39  
Old 06-05-2011, 06:32 AM
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Hi all

I've been away from the forum for a bit, I came back to check a few posts, see what was going on.

Still really enjoying my sage setup.

Hoping that there's been some more thought about dynamic padding in sage 7, thusly giving me incentive to upgrade? It's really all I'm waiting for.

Dynamic padding being the ability to tell sage to pad every show either requested or across the board except when that would cause an unresolvable conflict.

thanks!
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  #40  
Old 06-05-2011, 10:22 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Narflex View Post
With V7 there will be no gap between back-to-back shows recorded on the same channel .
I'm confused as to the "Always Tune" option - if this applies to back-to-back recordings, same channel.
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