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  #1  
Old 01-22-2010, 02:09 PM
justme justme is offline
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Help with custom aspect ratio to compress horizontally, please

Well the thread title says a lot. I have recently gotten a HDTV for my HD200, that I'm now using with Sage. I was all SD/analog before(except the PC's LCD), so please excuse my ignorance. I remember when I could do this by adjusting a percentage in the sage UI many versions ago. On to the details...

The TV is getting 1080p from the HD200 over HDMI(native switching is off and TV reports 1080p, so it's definitely 1080p). Also my HD200's UI is setup as a 16x9 display, which the TV is. I'm using the latest beta firmware on the HD200 and 6.6.2 software on the server. I want to create/use a custom aspect ratio that will compress the video's width ~13%. I don't wish to crop or otherwise distort the video, if possible. Just squash the video in the horizontal.

I've done searches. Mostly got threads discussing aspect theory, DAR, "how sage should do it", etc. What I've found and believe is part of the answer is... "advanced_aspect_ratio_extra_modes=" in the FAQ. I've found out how to zoom and even made some headway in understanding that. But compressing,not cropping, seems to be where I'm going.

It appears to me, the "blackstrip" setting would be the main part, but I'm lost from there. This particular video is actually 720x480p, I know I should be using a different resolution, but I've got other files in the 1080p range that need a similiar fix. Thanx for any help.

PS:Please don't hesitate to tell me I've got it all wrong and there's a simple answer. I've generally gotten far more simple, in my old age.
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  #2  
Old 01-22-2010, 02:37 PM
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First, I'm curious -- are you trying to get the video to play back so that it appears as a normal SD video, or are you really trying to make it narrower than it should be? I thought Source would cause it to appear normal.

But, it terms of trying to create a custom AR mode, are you trying to modify the property manually, or are you doing the changes within the UI? You can edit custom AR modes interactively during playback, though I can't remember whether I've actually tried to compress a video instead of stretch it.


Oh, and "Hi".

- Andy
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  #3  
Old 01-22-2010, 03:06 PM
justme justme is offline
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Quote:
First, I'm curious -- are you trying to get the video to play back so that it appears as a normal SD video, or are you really trying to make it narrower than it should be?
Yep, basically I'm trying to get it to play with the "proper ~4:3" aspect ratio. I'm not actually trying to make people narrower, for kicks.

Quote:
I thought Source would cause it to appear normal.
You know, that's what I would've thought too, but not for me. It's ~4(very quick measurement, based on TV's power LED) inches too wide(compared to standard 4:3 content from many sources/inputs) on the right, so double that, for a total of ~8 on my 65 inch set. My TV is set to "dot by dot" which is pretty much the mode(I tried all others too) that leaves the video alone the most, so it's not the TV. I even tested it on my neighbors TV, same thing.

This file and the others do playback fine(proper aspect) on the server on client PC software. I swear I do want to use my HD200, but it hates me. It's probably a issue with MKV files. Those and OGM(I rarely use now, and often remux old ones to MKV), are the things(container issues) that keep holding me back from totally using just Sage. But that's a different topic.

Quote:
But, it terms of trying to create a custom AR mode, are you trying to modify the property manually, or are you doing the changes within the UI?
I tried both.
Quote:
You can edit custom AR modes interactively during playback, though I can't remember whether I've actually tried to compress a video instead of stretch it.
Yeah, I read your FAQ entry. Thanx for the headstart. Shrinking/compressing was where I was left lost, though. There's another thread in this forum on a similiar issue. Hopefully if we can help one the, other can help them.

Quote:
Oh, and "Hi".
Thanks, and a big "HI" back at you. Long time, no me. I think you'll see me around a little more for a while. Different issues(nothing bad) have me messing with Sage a lot right now.

/justme

Last edited by justme; 01-22-2010 at 03:13 PM. Reason: added some detail on inches off
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  #4  
Old 01-22-2010, 04:03 PM
pjwerdna pjwerdna is offline
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If your saying 4:3 video gets streched in width to 16:9 and using the Source aspect doesnt help, then this is probably because the recorded file is actually marked as 16:9. If ti was marked as 4:3, then sage puts black bars to the left and right and the picture comes out right.

I asked about this kind of resizing when I first got the HD100 in July 2008.

I also opened a support call. The reply I got was "not currently possible and no plans to implement it"
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Old 01-22-2010, 04:19 PM
justme justme is offline
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Thanks for the reply.
Quote:
If your saying 4:3 video gets streched in width to 16:9 and using the Source aspect doesnt help, then this is probably because the recorded file is actually marked as 16:9.
Nope file is 4:3 and is marked as such. Plays fine using other players(mplayer,MPHC,ZoomPlayer) on Windows, and plays fine in Sage on Server PC. Still may be a Sage issue(MKVs like I posted above), as I'm using the always use Dshow property on server. I'll check nonDshow(Sage's internal mplayer) Sage playback, later when I have time.

HD200, seems to get the gist(ie it's not fullscreen), but... Makes the file a little too wide(~13%) when it plays it back, compared to other 4:3 files.
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  #6  
Old 01-22-2010, 08:03 PM
MattHelm MattHelm is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by justme View Post
PS:Please don't hesitate to tell me I've got it all wrong and there's a simple answer. I've generally gotten far more simple, in my old age.
You've got it all wrong! (Just kidding)

No, I think you hit the nail on the head with the MKV thing. I have a few that no matter what I do, they look wrong. (DVD direct to MKV, no data translation) I switched to ripping to H.264 (mainly because of disk space, not this problem), and adjusting the Anamorphic to loose, in handbrake, and all of them play fine.
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  #7  
Old 01-26-2010, 06:19 PM
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salsbst salsbst is offline
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Hey, folks,

Is it possible to shrink a 16x9 recording to 4x3 and then add black/empty bars to the right and left and deliver it back as 16x9 to the TV?

I'm not sure if I have the same problem or not. A lot of our A&E HD recordings are 16x9, but the content has been stretched by A&E from 4x3 to 16x9, distorting the video. So we have, from a Sage playback perspective, a 16x9 video that should be compressed horizontally down to 4x3. I'd like to deliver a 16x9 signal, whereby the recorded video, which is itself at 16x9, is shrunk horizontally and black boxes added to the sides, leaving the output at 16x9 (1080p).

I do not want to crop anything from the source. I just want to shrink it horizontally. I've played with the aspect settings (live using the playback AR editing tool) quite a bit, and no joy. What seems like it should be simple appears actually to be difficult for my poor brain to comprehend.

Is it possible to shrink a 16x9 recording to 4x3 and then add black/empty bars to the right and left and deliver it back as 16x9 to the TV?

TIA,
Stuart
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  #8  
Old 01-27-2010, 12:57 AM
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Fuzzy Fuzzy is offline
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Have you tried using native switching? This would send the 480i to the TV as 480i, and let the TV's aspect modes control it (which, if not in a zoom mode, should probably set up proper pillar boxes).
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  #9  
Old 01-27-2010, 08:38 AM
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salsbst salsbst is offline
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Hey Fuzzy,

Not sure if you're talking to me or justme... haha... my recording is 16x9 and needs to be shrunk horizontally to 4x3, so native switching won't help.... but thanks for trying, unless you were addressing justme... haha...

-S
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  #10  
Old 01-27-2010, 08:44 AM
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BTW, I just realized I'm guilty of attempted thread hijacking, so please ignore me.
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  #11  
Old 01-27-2010, 09:57 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by salsbst View Post
Hey Fuzzy,

Not sure if you're talking to me or justme... haha... my recording is 16x9 and needs to be shrunk horizontally to 4x3, so native switching won't help.... but thanks for trying, unless you were addressing justme... haha...

-S
You should be able to just choose the 4x3 aspect ratio, and it will do that, regardless of what the source is. What 16x9 soure do you have that you want to shrink? What was it recorded with?
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  #12  
Old 01-27-2010, 10:30 AM
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After checking into it a bit more, I don't believe it is possible to compress the video using the extender's custom AR mode settings.

- Andy
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  #13  
Old 01-27-2010, 10:38 AM
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Thanks Andy. Does that mean that black bars also can't be inserted on the left and right? Or just that it cannot create a true 4x3 signal? I was thinking of trying to stretch the image vertically (rather than compressing it horizontally).

I feel like I must be missing something. But it sounds like you guys are saying that it's the extender which is missing something

BTW, Fuzzy, one example of this problem is in our A&E HD channel, which used to be recorded via firewire but is now recorded via HD-PVR. I'm not at home now so can't check for more info, but IIRC, it's at 720p.

Last edited by salsbst; 01-27-2010 at 12:37 PM. Reason: corrected new capture device, which is HD-PVR
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Old 01-27-2010, 11:10 AM
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so it is 720p, but was stretched at the source? I don't think I've ever seen any networks do that. I've only ever seen them pillarbox Sd content into a 720 or 1080 feed.
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  #15  
Old 01-27-2010, 12:11 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by salsbst View Post
Thanks Andy. Does that mean that black bars also can't be inserted on the left and right? Or just that it cannot create a true 4x3 signal? I was thinking of trying to stretch the image vertically (rather than compressing it horizontally).

I feel like I must be missing something. But it sounds like you guys are saying that it's the extender which is missing something
I almost suggested stretching vertically earlier, but didn't know if anyone wanted to cut out part of the picture.

I don't know where the limitation lies or what would need to change to allow it; I just know that the existing customizable AR mode settings don't seem to allow compressing the image width/height.

- Andy
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  #16  
Old 01-27-2010, 12:35 PM
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I wouldn't want to lose the top and bottom of the picture. The reason to stretch vertically, is, in my vivid imagination, that it might then cause sage to sqeeze the whole thing in equal proportions to end up with a 1080p output.... thanks for your research, Andy.
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  #17  
Old 01-27-2010, 05:57 PM
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You could try to use modify the mode manually and use the output setting. Its syntax should be the same as source. There might be some conflict if something else tries to modify the output window.

_Demo_
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  #18  
Old 01-29-2010, 10:18 AM
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Thanks, Demo. It's going to take me a little while to try out the hand-edited aspects, since it is rather disruptive, but I will certainly give it a try and reply back with my results when I can.

Just to be clear, you're suggesting that I edit the following, right?

Quote:
One or more property value settings may be defined after the name. The possible properties and their values are:

* source=x,y,w,h,xpm,ypm,xm,ym,wm,hm
* output=x,y,w,h,xpm,ypm,xm,ym,wm,hm (The output parameter is not currently used.)
By, "not currently used", I suppose what's really meant is "not currently supported and not entirely sure what it will do"?
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Old 01-29-2010, 01:54 PM
justme justme is offline
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Thanks to all, for info/feedback

Salsbst, you were never quilty of any thread jacking, IMO. I appreciated your questions, and interest. I believe your interest and others helped, us all, get somewhere on this issue. Thanx, for keeping the discusion going.

Andy, that's for all the info. As usual, you are invaluable to these forums.

_Demo_, thanks for tip. I was afraid it might not be possible, without that setting. Still glad you think the output setting might work. However i'm unclear as to it's exact usage, too. A quick example might help, unless salsbst gets back to us first.

Of course I'll post if I get this working or find out I can't. Still based on the speed of my replies(sorry, very busy with real life) I think you guys will beat me to this.

I too am interested in how sage will handle this long term, officially. If your suggestion works great... But if not or it breaks other things, should we put in a support request, beg for it to be added to a coming version, etc. This seems like something that the HD200 should be able to do, just from my perspective as a user.

I don't know how much demand there is, but this thread got more interest than I expected. The current aspect ratio UI setup may expose almost all the current power, but is a little overwhelming. I found it easier to work with the text of the property file than the UI, but maybe this was because the HD200 wasn't reacting as I expected. Personally I'd love to see a more mid-level user friendly aspect setting UI for the HD200. Maybe a simpler UI using mainly sliders. This, of course, would include a way to compress video, without clipping/cropping. But that(UI changes) is a different topic.

Thanks Andy,salsbst,_Demo_, all.

/justme.
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  #20  
Old 02-09-2010, 11:08 AM
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I think I may have found a solution to my particular problem.

http://forums.sagetv.com/forums/show...92&postcount=2
Quote:
I have 4:3 override set to Off currently, so I can stay on the same input for HD and SD. Also, the box will pillarbox the image with black bars on the side
My problem seems to be that the 480p my cable box was delivering under 4:3 override mode was somehow flagged as being 16x9 aspect.

It appears that by changing the 4:3 override on the cable box to "Off", I can at least get proper aspect ratios, the only drawback being that I didn't really want to store 4x3 SD-sourced material at 720p... but at this point, I'll take it. I haven't completely confirmed this result, but spot check was encouraging.

Still, would be nice to have horizontal compression available. Never got around to editing the aspect ratios by hand...
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