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  #1  
Old 09-26-2012, 11:11 AM
jdc jdc is offline
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Another esxi unraid thread - questions

Iím new to esxi (as in reading not doing) and wanted some input on the best approach for Sage. I have the general sense of how it all works. I'm also debating adding unraid to the mix after reading posts here and this limetech post.

My general setup:
AMD supported MB and CPU.
8GB RAM
6 Sata drives directly attached to MB (no raid, JBOD). Will upgrade and/or add more drives later.
All of the drives not used for Guest OSís will be used for Sage media.
Sage 7 Guest OS will be Win7. Will prob have 3, maybe 4 guest OS.
3 HD300, 2 HD200 extenders
Option 1:
Load Esxi and configure 1-3 drives as datastores for the guest OSís. The remaining drives would be attached directly to the Sage Guest OS. This is where I have some uncertainty. It seems like it is possible to connect drives through something like RDM or virtualhost but Iím not sure.
1. Within esxi, can I dedicate an NTFS drive to a guest OS and mount it in the guest OS?
2. It seems that I may need to have another sata controller for the NTFS drives.
Option 2:
Same as above, but instead I would use unraid for the remaining drives that would store my media.
1. I think I would still need another SATA controller for the drives for unraid.
2. Do I need a second NIC for unraid to use? Some of the articles mention a passthrough, but not sure if this is done virtually through esxi or if I need hardware.
3. Are you running esxi and unraid from a thumb drive?
Any advice is much appreciated.
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  #2  
Old 09-26-2012, 01:52 PM
kbyrd kbyrd is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jdc View Post
Iím new to esxi (as in reading not doing) and wanted some input on the best approach for Sage. I have the general sense of how it all works. I'm also debating adding unraid to the mix after reading posts here and this limetech post.

My general setup:
AMD supported MB and CPU.
8GB RAM
6 Sata drives directly attached to MB (no raid, JBOD). Will upgrade and/or add more drives later.
All of the drives not used for Guest OSís will be used for Sage media.
Sage 7 Guest OS will be Win7. Will prob have 3, maybe 4 guest OS.
3 HD300, 2 HD200 extenders
When you say supported MB, are you sure there is a driver for your motherboard's SATA controller in ESX? Be sure.

Quote:
Option 1:
Load Esxi and configure 1-3 drives as datastores for the guest OSís. The remaining drives would be attached directly to the Sage Guest OS. This is where I have some uncertainty. It seems like it is possible to connect drives through something like RDM or virtualhost but Iím not sure.
1. Within esxi, can I dedicate an NTFS drive to a guest OS and mount it in the guest OS?

2. It seems that I may need to have another sata controller for the NTFS drives.
Option 2:
Same as above, but instead I would use unraid for the remaining drives that would store my media.
1. I think I would still need another SATA controller for the drives for unraid.
2. Do I need a second NIC for unraid to use? Some of the articles mention a passthrough, but not sure if this is done virtually through esxi or if I need hardware.
3. Are you running esxi and unraid from a thumb drive?
I'm not up-to-speed on what is doable in the UI for vSphere 5 vs what is possible in previous releases, so my info may be out of date.

What you're asking it seems like you want to run ESXi and have several VMs. You want three drives to provide storage for the OS in the VMs. You don't have to map these 1:1. If your three drives are 500GB each, you can put them all in a single data store and then treat them as one big 1.5TB volume and then create all your VMs in that, allocating 60GB (or whatever) as a primary disk for each VM. You won't get any reliability though. If one drive fails, you'll probably lose the whole datastore.

For your media storage, you can either do the types of pass through I mentioned in the first section, or you can run something like unRAID and then have your VMs use the storage across the "network" (really just a private network inside the ESX host). Which is better? It depends. If you use unRAID, that's another thing between your SageVM and it's storage. If you don't use unRAID, you've got to manage the storage manually as NTFS volumes in the SageTV VM. Which are you more comfortable with?


There are a few ways to handle the disks in the VMs.

- RDM (raw disk mode). You end up creating a vmdk that is a thin wrapper for the whole drive. In previous releases, this isn't officially supported (it may not be in vSphere 5.x either) and you had to manually cobble it together on the cmdline. It couldn't be done from the UI. I've done this with 4.x and beta 5.0 vSphere and it works.

- Just create a single regular vmdk per drive that you want to "pass-through" to the VM. Each VMDK will take up the entire space of each drive. You'll lose a bit of space to the datastore and VMDK overhead, but otherwise this will just be a regular "drive" from inside the virtual machine. You'll end up with drive-3.vmdk, drive-4.vmdk, drive-5.vmdk in your VM and you can use those to make a RAID or whatever. This is similar to the RDM method, but better supported for local drives and possibly more overhead. For your use, I bet the overhead isn't noticable.

- Pass-through. You don't pass-through a drive, you pass-through an entire PCIe device, like a SATA controller. When you do this, ESX doesn't need a driver for it, but your VM does. But, a single VM gets control of the entire controller. Your motherboard must support VT-d for this to work.

About networking:
I don't know why you would need to pass through the network card. ESXi will let you add multiple network cards to a VM, VMs can share a single physical network card, you can set things up to effectively dedicate a network card to a VM, or wire up a private network between a group of VMs so that the VMs can all talk to each other (like your unRAID VM talking to your SageTV VM) without the network traffic actually hitting a real network card.
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  #3  
Old 10-03-2012, 05:34 PM
jdc jdc is offline
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Thanks for the quick reply. Very helpful and concise.

I checked the vm-help website which said my MB was supported and the only issue was the realtek NIC, so I'll just get a supported NIC.

I really appreciate the info. When I bite the bullet, I will most likely try the pass through and buy a supported sata controller to pass to un-raid.

So my general setup will probably be:
  • esxi loaded on usb stick - bootable
  • 3 250GB sata drives attached to MB and used as datastores, each dedicated to a guest OS
  • unraid loaded on usb stick
  • 4 2TB+ sata drives on separate PCI-e controller to pass through to unraid
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  #4  
Old 10-04-2012, 09:30 AM
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teq teq is offline
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Hi jdc,

the interesting question would be whether you intend to use the ESXi based SageTV server to actually record TV (vs. only as a media server) - and if so - whether your recording HW is supported?

Apart from that question, you could also consider using a ZFS based VM operating system instead of unraid. I am quite happy with my Nexentastor based media server (ESXi 5.1 with Nexentastor VM and WHS 2011 VM). The community edition supports up to 18 TB of storage and is free (as in beer).

Just my 5 cents.

Cheers,
teq
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  #5  
Old 10-04-2012, 11:51 AM
g-man g-man is offline
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I am new to the esxi strategy as well and am currently in the planning stages. So if I were to go with the Pass-through model for the whole controller, can I just put multiple controllers into the main board and dedicate the controller to the Sage VM and the other as a datastore for multiple VM's?

i really don't want to build an 8-10 TB vmdk to use with Sage. This way I can create a raid for each controller and have a separate NAS (outside of esxi) to backup to nightly.
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  #6  
Old 10-04-2012, 01:23 PM
BobPhoenix BobPhoenix is offline
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Here is how I have ESXi server setup (I have another one similar but no WHSv1 VM):
3 VMs. 1 unRAID, 1 Win7x64 (SageTV), 1 WHSv1.

Case - Re-used LianLi V2000 (from old SageTV server on a Q6600 X7SBE MB)
MB - Tyan S5512GM2NR MB all slots filled
  1. PCIe x16 - M1015 controller to Intel RES2SV240 SAS expander passed through to unRAID VM to give 24 drive support - only using 16 2TB drives currently.
  2. PCIe x8 - SASLP-MV8 controller passed through to WHSv1 VM connected to 4 laptop 1TB drives in a 4x1 2.5 drive cage.
  3. PCIe x8(x4 elec) - SASLP-MV8 controller passed through to Win7x64 VM for recording drives for SageTV - 6 2TB currently connected.
  4. PCIe x1 - AVerMedia Duet for 2 OTA tuners passed through to Win7x64 SageTV VM
  5. PCIe x1 - HVR-2250 for 2 OTA tuners passed through to Win7x64 SageTV VM.
  6. PCI - USB 2.0 card passed through to SageTV VM with 2 HVR-950Qs attached for 2 more OTA tuners. I might have been able to use an Onboard USB controller for passthough but didn't want to chance it. And had another use for it anyway (see below).
Now drives connected to MB sata ports
  1. 40GB SSD datastore drive no OS virtual drives just RDM'd drives so lots of space for OS ISOs, VMs etc. I hope TRIM gets supported in ESXi so this doesn't die too quick on me but VMs are easy to setup if it does since that and RDM drives are all that is here. I won't loose any of my boot drives for the VMs if the SSD dies.
  2. 320GB Spinner RDM'd to WHSv1 VM as boot drive
  3. 120GB SSD RDM'd to Win7x64 boot drive. Hope that this will allow Windows to do TRIM but am still working to see if I need to change to a SSD with garbage collection or not. Windows says TRIM is enabled but I don't know if it is working or not so may still burn it out too quick - but that is what the WHSv1 backup of this drive is for. May still switch to spinner however.
Also have HDHomeRun for QAM for the SageTV VM as well. I did passthrough the MB USB controller to WHSv1 VM to backup the server quicker. The USB ESXi controller is significantly slower than USB 2.0 but alot faster than 1.1 so I chose to pass through the MB USB controller for the faster backups of my WHSv1 server. My old arrangement used a ESXi USB controller but backup times were much longer so switched when I could.

The only problems I've had with this is with Ivy Bridge bios's dropping the AVerMedia Duet card. When the MB has Ivy Bridge support the Duet is no longer recognized by the bios or any operating system installed. I have ample evidence that this isn't a ESXi problem but is Ivy Bridge problem since my Intel desktop DH77EB will not recognize the AVer Media Duet either. HVR-2250s are recognized fine buy all.

Last edited by BobPhoenix; 10-04-2012 at 01:28 PM.
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  #7  
Old 10-28-2012, 11:07 PM
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snipeman snipeman is offline
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I was just replacing my 5 year old XP Sage server, and had targeted an Ivy bridge Intel system board Intel BOXDZ77SL50K LGA 1155 Intel Z77 and the Avermedia Duet tuner. Should I rethink my plan?

Did you solve the dropout problem with this card?

I had picked the Duet from reading threads here, it seemed to have better handling of tricky OTA signals than the 2250. My 2250 doesn't do the greatest, and I'm restricted on antenna choice by my condo location.

My server is for OTA only.
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  #8  
Old 10-29-2012, 06:13 AM
BobPhoenix BobPhoenix is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by snipeman View Post
I was just replacing my 5 year old XP Sage server, and had targeted an Ivy bridge Intel system board Intel BOXDZ77SL50K LGA 1155 Intel Z77 and the Avermedia Duet tuner. Should I rethink my plan?

Did you solve the dropout problem with this card?

I had picked the Duet from reading threads here, it seemed to have better handling of tricky OTA signals than the 2250. My 2250 doesn't do the greatest, and I'm restricted on antenna choice by my condo location.

My server is for OTA only.
The only solution for me was to use a Sandy Bridge CPU and downgrade the bios to a Sandy Bridge compatible only bios on my Tyan MB. My Intel MB can't be downgraded since there are ONLY Ivy Bridge compatible bios's for it and I have an Ivy Bridge CPU.

So yes I would recommend if you want an Aver Media Duet use a Sandy Bridge CPU and pick an older MB that was around when only Sandy Bridge CPUs were present.

I can tell you that my X9SCM supermicro worked with the 1.0c bios until I upgraded and discovered the problem and then tried to downgrade the bios back to 1.0c and bricked it. I think that was because I didn't use the correct options when flashing it. My Tyan S5512GM4NR was sucessfully downgraded to 1.05 this weekend and I've already recorded some shows on a Duet I installed in it. After the X9SCM bricking I didn't want to take a chance so I talked to Tyan Tech Support and they sent me files that were edited to have the correct parameters to the flash program. The bios was just what was already available for 1.05.

Last edited by BobPhoenix; 10-29-2012 at 06:15 AM.
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  #9  
Old 10-29-2012, 10:20 AM
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snipeman snipeman is offline
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Thanks for the reply.

I ended up buying this ATX Ivy motherboard:
Intel BOXDH77KC LGA 1155 Intel H77

I found a review on some micro-ATX Intel motherboard in which the reviewer had a Duet, and the BIOS wouldn't recognize it. He posed an update in which he reported Intel fixed the problem.

So I started studying Intel BIOS PDFs and discovered the board I linked to above also has had the BIOS fixed for this problem.

Check this out:
http://downloadmirror.intel.com/2201...easeNotes2.pdf
Page one, in the center "Fixed issue where PCIe x1 TV tuner card does not work."

It is the same fix report as the micro-atx that was reported to work.

So I'm going to order these and test it, I'll report back. Don't know if it will help your esxi device, but if they fixed something with PCI-E timing that makes the Duet work, perhaps it will make everything work...
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  #10  
Old 10-29-2012, 10:48 AM
BobPhoenix BobPhoenix is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by snipeman View Post
Thanks for the reply.

I ended up buying this ATX Ivy motherboard:
Intel BOXDH77KC LGA 1155 Intel H77

I found a review on some micro-ATX Intel motherboard in which the reviewer had a Duet, and the BIOS wouldn't recognize it. He posed an update in which he reported Intel fixed the problem.

So I started studying Intel BIOS PDFs and discovered the board I linked to above also has had the BIOS fixed for this problem.

Check this out:
http://downloadmirror.intel.com/2201...easeNotes2.pdf
Page one, in the center "Fixed issue where PCIe x1 TV tuner card does not work."

It is the same fix report as the micro-atx that was reported to work.

So I'm going to order these and test it, I'll report back. Don't know if it will help your esxi device, but if they fixed something with PCI-E timing that makes the Duet work, perhaps it will make everything work...
Thanks. My Intel DH77EB MB might be fixed too. I'll have to check. Definately interested if you get it working. I'm trying to have a 2250 and Duet in each of my servers. That way as the weather changes and tuners stop being able to reliably pick up some chanels but other tuners do I can adjust the channel lineups on each. I've found that sometimes the 2250s get better reception but most of the time the Duet does better. Only in the worst storms do I see both the Duet and 2250 with signal problems. It's weird because the direction the store approaches appears to change which tuner will pickup the signal better. If I could stand a ladder and being on my roof I would adjust the antenna that the morrons aimed incorrectly. "We've got a signal meter" - yeh right maybe learn to read it. Or do it the old fashioned way and tune each channel and aim for best signal. I've got one station that doesn't even come in at all thanks to them.
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  #11  
Old 10-29-2012, 11:37 AM
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snipeman snipeman is offline
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Sure, I'll come back and post after I build the system. So far I just ordered an i5-3450s. So it will be a couple of weeks before I'm up and running.

I thought to get a Duet because I do have issues locking in on my 2250 sometimes. I'm in a condo with other tower buildings and hills around, and could be having multi-path problems.

Do you think I'm headed down the right path?

I'm looking at a Lian Li aluminum case, the Intel H77 board mentioned above, the 3540S CPU (65w), Win 7 64 bit, a WD 2TB green, 8GB of Gskill 1600 RAM, and the Duet tuner.

I hadn't planned to reinstall the 2250 as I only really have room for one window antenna in the condo and I don't need to record 4 shows at once. 2 is great.

I've got 1 HD300, 2 HD200s and a few placeshifters.

Thanks for any opinions!
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  #12  
Old 10-29-2012, 11:46 AM
BobPhoenix BobPhoenix is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by snipeman View Post
Sure, I'll come back and post after I build the system. So far I just ordered an i5-3450s. So it will be a couple of weeks before I'm up and running.

I thought to get a Duet because I do have issues locking in on my 2250 sometimes. I'm in a condo with other tower buildings and hills around, and could be having multi-path problems.

Do you think I'm headed down the right path?

I'm looking at a Lian Li aluminum case, the Intel H77 board mentioned above, the 3540S CPU (65w), Win 7 64 bit, a WD 2TB green, 8GB of Gskill 1600 RAM, and the Duet tuner.

I hadn't planned to reinstall the 2250 as I only really have room for one window antenna in the condo and I don't need to record 4 shows at once. 2 is great.

I've got 1 HD300, 2 HD200s and a few placeshifters.

Thanks for any opinions!
Your system looks fine if you can get your Duet working. The fact that a bios update fixed it for a different model than yours and release notes for yours list a similar update is a good sign. You are probably good and if not you might be able to get Intel to fix it. I see mine has an update but no mention of the same change on the release notes so it looks like I'm out of luck for mine. I just haven't had time to report it to them yet.
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  #13  
Old 10-31-2012, 02:00 PM
BobPhoenix BobPhoenix is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by snipeman View Post
Sure, I'll come back and post after I build the system. So far I just ordered an i5-3450s. So it will be a couple of weeks before I'm up and running.

I thought to get a Duet because I do have issues locking in on my 2250 sometimes. I'm in a condo with other tower buildings and hills around, and could be having multi-path problems.

Do you think I'm headed down the right path?

I'm looking at a Lian Li aluminum case, the Intel H77 board mentioned above, the 3540S CPU (65w), Win 7 64 bit, a WD 2TB green, 8GB of Gskill 1600 RAM, and the Duet tuner.

I hadn't planned to reinstall the 2250 as I only really have room for one window antenna in the condo and I don't need to record 4 shows at once. 2 is great.

I've got 1 HD300, 2 HD200s and a few placeshifters.

Thanks for any opinions!
Well I was wrong. Just looked again at your i5-3450s and it does not do VT-d so it will not be compatible with pass through of controller cards. Assuming the Intel spec sheet is correct. I must have seen the VT-x as yes here and missed the line below it. You could however use a i5-3550S to get pass through going or any of the others listed here.
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  #14  
Old 10-31-2012, 03:58 PM
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snipeman snipeman is offline
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I'm confused, do you mean this CPU won't work with a Duet? It says it as VT-x, but not VT-d.

Do I need to buy another CPU? Sadly that was the only thing I already ordered...


EDIT: I'm sorry I never meant to hijack the thread, just to be clear I'm not running any virtual servers. My main concern was getting a MB & CPU setup that was compatible with the Duet. I posted because of your comment that the Ivy Bios and Duet didn't play well together and tried to help shed some light on the issue. If the Duet, I5-3450s and Intel DH77EB play well, I'm just going to sit them in a closet and hopefully run them for 5 years or until Sage becomes useless for an unforeseen reason!
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Last edited by snipeman; 10-31-2012 at 08:34 PM.
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  #15  
Old 11-01-2012, 06:08 AM
BobPhoenix BobPhoenix is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by snipeman View Post
I'm confused, do you mean this CPU won't work with a Duet? It says it as VT-x, but not VT-d.

Do I need to buy another CPU? Sadly that was the only thing I already ordered...


EDIT: I'm sorry I never meant to hijack the thread, just to be clear I'm not running any virtual servers. My main concern was getting a MB & CPU setup that was compatible with the Duet. I posted because of your comment that the Ivy Bios and Duet didn't play well together and tried to help shed some light on the issue. If the Duet, I5-3450s and Intel DH77EB play well, I'm just going to sit them in a closet and hopefully run them for 5 years or until Sage becomes useless for an unforeseen reason!
Sorry getting confused myself there. I was fine and understood the switch the first time. Standalone you will be fine if MB supports the duet. If you ever want to Virtualize and use it in pass through mode then you would have to get another CPU. VT-x support means it supports virtualization but not pass through. VT-d is what is needed for pass through support.

Last edited by BobPhoenix; 11-01-2012 at 06:11 AM.
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  #16  
Old 11-01-2012, 12:29 PM
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snipeman snipeman is offline
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Thanks - again sorry to hijack the thread. I'll post again after I know if my BIOS and the Duet work, just so you and anyone else searching though this later are curious for the answer. Other than that, I'll stay out of virtual server discussions.
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  #17  
Old 11-14-2012, 12:08 PM
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snipeman snipeman is offline
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Just in case anyone is interested I can report the Duet, I5-3450s and Intel DH77EBall work great together with the current BIOS. I flashed it right away, I didn't even bother testing with the original shipped BIOS.
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