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  #1  
Old 01-28-2009, 09:49 AM
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HD200 no HDMI output

Here's are the components and the tests performed so far:

Display: Mitsubishi WS-48503 with component in + DVI w/ HDCP 480i/480p/1080i capable

I have tested with two different cables:
1) The HDMI/HDMI cable and DVI converter shipped with the HD200
2) A single HDMI/DVI cable (10ft) from monoprice

The Mitsu has HDCP on the DVI port (it was one of the first that did) and it has proven itself by running against a VOOM HD tuner with DVI-HDCP, as well as a previous SageTV installation running an Nvidia 7600GS, which has DVI-HDCP.

So the Display is sane for DVI-HDCP sources. I find it unlikely that BOTH cables are bad, and that only leaves the HD200. I configure the HD200 for video on the HDMI port, set the resolution at 480p (let's keep it simple to start.) Power off the HD200 and disconnect the component cables used to configure it. Switch the TV to the DVI port, and power up the HD200. A brief view of the SageTV logo and then BLACK. (Not BLUE, which is what I would get if there was no signal.)

Suggestions? The only thing left to test for absolute certainty that this is a failure of the HD200 is to hook up a different device with HDMI out to the cable. I'm borrowing a buddy's PS3 to do that test tomorrow night. But all things being equal, I'm doing this giving the HD200 the 'benefit of the doubt.' I believe that the problem is at the HD200. What other tests should I run or configurations should I change before I yell 'uncle' and call Sage support? Also, I noted the 'force HDMI' that is turned off and was added a few firmwares ago...but there is no reference in the User's Guide (which doesn't seem to be keeping up with the firmwares) as to what it actually does.

Help....
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  #2  
Old 01-28-2009, 12:18 PM
_Demo_ _Demo_ is offline
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The force hdmi option will make the device not wait for some reply from the monitor to try applying hdmi output. This is in some way what happens on boot since it always send a 1080i output signal no matter what is connected. This can be needed on devices like pc LCD monitor with dvi input that won't report the hdmi information properly.

_Demo_
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  #3  
Old 01-28-2009, 12:21 PM
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Oh ho!

I am willing to give this a whirl first to see if it sorts out my problems. I'll put a ticket in to Sage for the HDMI port on the HD200 if it fails this test. (I've already run the troubleshooting steps in the User's Guide.)

Thanks

M
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  #4  
Old 01-28-2009, 08:41 PM
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No dice.

I switched the hdmi force enabled, and then shut down the HD200.

Cable swapped to the hdmi port and switched the tv to the dvi port.

powered on hd200 and got the logo. then it goes black. and then the screen goes blue; gone.

So I think I'm looking at a support call.

M
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  #5  
Old 01-29-2009, 08:42 PM
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An update:

Hmm.... ok. So I think I found the problem with the HDMI (i'm going to update this thread and another.)

'RGB' or 'Y Pb/Cb Pr/Cr'

My TV speaks RGB in the DVI port. I borrowed a buddy's PS3 and plugged in to the DVI port, via an HDMI adapter (that came with the HD200.) Same cable I used for my HD200 tests.

The PS3 did not appreciate it. Weirdo colours. I tinkered with the menus for a bit and found the HDMI 'RGB' or 'Y Pb/Cb Pr/Cr'. I switched it to RGB.

SNAP!

Perfect.

What is the deal with this? I wasn't aware that there were different transmission options over HDMI/DVI-D. Does HD200 have the ability to shift this? Or am I just stuck?

I'm going to look over the changelog for the new HD200 beta firmware before updating.

Who would have thought it would be so difficult to just plug something in and have all of the ports 'just work.'

Sigh.

M
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  #6  
Old 01-30-2009, 05:02 AM
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If you had a HDMI to HDMI you would not see this issue. Because you are using a DVI your TV allows RGB (for HDMI) or 'Y Pb/Cb Pr/Cr' which would work for a component connection. I don't think it has anything to do with the HD200 because, as you saw, your buddies PS3 worked the same way.

From the AVS forum:
Quote:
There seems to be some confusion between analog component video (which uses YPrPb), analog RGB (as used with a PC's VGA interface), and the encoded digital video formats used with HDMI. HDMI can provide the video information, in digital, in two alternative forms. In one case it is digitally encoded YPrPb and in the other case it is digitally encoded RGB. Currently 8-bits are used to encode each of the 3 'component" colors (be they either Y, Pr and Pb -OR- red, blue and green). The digital video information for HD video sources, such as Blu-ray, HD-DVD, DVD, Directv, etc., is encoded as YPrPb therefore outputting the video via HDMI in YPrPb format involves the least processing by the source device. Most HDTVs ultimately must process the incoming digital video information into a RGB form because the display device is using red, blue and green (subpixels) to created the color image (be it plasma, LCD, CRT, DLP or LCOS technology).

Gerry
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  #7  
Old 01-30-2009, 08:52 AM
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Yeah, but Gerr, the PS3 let me choose whether to send RGB or YPbR.

This Mitsu has DVI w/HDCP, a YPbR set of RCA ports, and a pair of conventional RGB component RCA ports.

All I'm looking for is a way to stay 100% digital all the way to the display.

So if the PS3 let's me toggle between RGB and YPbR on the HDMI port, why doesn't the HD200?

If I've managed to completely misunderstand this issue, please explain it to me using words of less than three syllables....apparent a technical degree isn't sufficent to make these vagaries obvious. I really do want to understand. In a nutshell, am I just screwed?

M
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  #8  
Old 01-30-2009, 09:19 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by webwalker View Post
Yeah, but Gerr, the PS3 let me choose whether to send RGB or YPbR.

This Mitsu has DVI w/HDCP, a YPbR set of RCA ports, and a pair of conventional RGB component RCA ports.

All I'm looking for is a way to stay 100% digital all the way to the display.

So if the PS3 let's me toggle between RGB and YPbR on the HDMI port, why doesn't the HD200?

If I've managed to completely misunderstand this issue, please explain it to me using words of less than three syllables....apparent a technical degree isn't sufficent to make these vagaries obvious. I really do want to understand. In a nutshell, am I just screwed?

M
You are 100% digital. From my quote above:
Quote:
In one case it is digitally encoded YPrPb and in the other case it is digitally encoded RGB
You may be right in regards to maybe the HD200 needs to be able to choose between the two. I DO have issues with my HD100 if I use a firmware newer than the Aug 2008 version. I get your symptoms-blank screen, no activity on the port as reported by the monitor. Tried everything. The monitor doesn't think a cable is attached. My HD200 is fine but it is connected to a HDMI port on my plasma. But something changed for my HD100 and quite possibly that change is affecting the HD200 for you.

Gerry
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  #9  
Old 01-30-2009, 11:25 AM
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Hmm. Ok. This sounds like a bug. If a previous model worked....and then didn't after a firmware upgrade, and the newest generation continues this behavior...that sound a lot like a bug to me.

What do you think? Have you submitted a bug report on this?
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  #10  
Old 01-30-2009, 02:08 PM
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Submitted a bug report after each firmware update that didn't work. And you may be right about the bug thing.

Gerry
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  #11  
Old 01-30-2009, 02:46 PM
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I did a little research. I'm a Reference Librarian's worst nightmare.

The problem appears to be that the HD200 is not compliant with the EIA-861 (HDCP)
requirement for HDMI to output digital RGB, as well as YCbCr. Most EIA-861
compliant DVI displays use RGB and do not recognize YCbCr.

We'll see what comes of it. But it really puts a dent in to my ability to use this pricey little box.

M
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  #12  
Old 01-30-2009, 03:53 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by webwalker View Post
I did a little research. I'm a Reference Librarian's worst nightmare.

The problem appears to be that the HD200 is not compliant with the EIA-861 (HDCP)
requirement for HDMI to output digital RGB, as well as YCbCr. Most EIA-861
compliant DVI displays use RGB and do not recognize YCbCr.

We'll see what comes of it. But it really puts a dent in to my ability to use this pricey little box.

M
This is not the case, most likely there is a miscommunication between the device. Please contact support to provide them with a miniclient log.

_Demo_
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  #13  
Old 01-30-2009, 04:02 PM
cfoxga cfoxga is offline
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I'm not a SageTV user (yet), but I plan on making the jump from MythTV soon...

I was curious why you are so dead-set on the DVI interface, especially to an analog TV. If running a component cable to the TV is not an option, I undestand that. But without a digital TV, you still have a digital->analog conversion. So you can't be "pixel perfect" no matter what you do.

I'm currently running my HD cable DVR to an LCD display via component (can get HDMI there now) and have no issues with the quality. There was a point when I was able to A/B test vs. HDMI and didn't notice much difference.

Good luck...

Chris
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  #14  
Old 02-01-2009, 12:49 PM
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Chris,

Thanks for your comments.

This is NOT an analog TV; only the display is analog. It just happens to be a digital CRT TV. (Yes, there is such a thing.) The TV has both DVI (CEA861) and component available; I'd prefer to do the final D to A IN the TV.

I've done sidebyside with the DVI vs the component using an OTA tuner and there is a an improvement in the black level. It isn't a big improvement, but it is perceptible.

I'm not especially concerned with being 'picture perfect' because there isn't any such thing: there are only variations of imperfect.

M
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  #15  
Old 02-11-2009, 07:55 PM
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Just to add to the thread. I have a Mitsubishi WS-55313 rear projection HDTV 1080i with component and DVI inputs. No HDMI. I tried to connect a HD200 to this TV using a cable with HDMI on one end and DVI on the other. It would not work. You get the SAGE LOGO for a few seconds then nothing. I fixed the problem by switching to component cables which the HD200 liked just fine. I just used the HDMI to DVI cable for my DirecTV H23 connected to this tv and it worked fine with it.
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  #16  
Old 02-13-2009, 07:26 PM
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well, its nice to know I'm not the only one.
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  #17  
Old 02-13-2009, 11:54 PM
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Hi,

Same symptoms here. I use a panasonic industrial plasma monitor with an HDCP DVI input. Works fine with my BD player, HDDVD player and the pc client I was using, but no go with the HD200. After a fair bit of time fooling with it I gave up and went with component.

Jesse
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  #18  
Old 02-14-2009, 12:23 AM
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I've got the same problem with a new Sage HD200 unit. I have a Sony HDTV 1080i with component and DVI inputs. Connecting via a HDMI to DVI cable that works with other components. Installed latest firmware, 20081230, and enabled the 'Force HDMI Display Mode' option in Detailed Setup->Multimedia. I get the sage logo screen within a few seconds after startup. After several seconds I lose the logo screen and get no video output at all via HDMI.

My component hookups are all taken, so I have to connect this box via the DVI input on the TV. Is this something that Sage is working on to fix?
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  #19  
Old 02-14-2009, 09:11 AM
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Installed Beta firmware version "20090209 0".

This does NOT fix the HDMI to DVI problem noted in my post directly above.

But it does fix another problem I was having - I can now access Import Library Paths / Import Directories on my NAS (SMB share) which didn't work with 1230 firmware version.
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  #20  
Old 02-14-2009, 12:38 PM
John@TunerUK John@TunerUK is offline
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I actually came across what would appear to be a different problem, but with the same symptoms. The sage bootup screen on the HD-200, then nothing.
The fix for me was to connect using analogue, then go to the HD-200's video settings menu, and highlight everything except 1080i. The TV is a brand new 26" Sony Bravia LCD, which I'm sure should be able to show 1080i, but for some reason it caused a problem. Since 720p on anything 32" or below is more than enough, I thought it the best option just to ditch it.

Like I say, sounds like you have a different issue, but for anyone searching the forums for a fix, it might be something to try.
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