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  #1  
Old 12-08-2010, 08:17 AM
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Question How much would you pay for SageTV DRM

I read a comment in SD forum "It's really up to Sage to decide to 1) not support it at all, 2) support it with copy-freely channels, or 3) decide to implement full DRM support. I think option 3 is highly unlikely".

At moment with my 2xHDHR and 2xPVR I get what I want.

I would love in future to have 1 HDHR and 1 HDHR'P' and SageTV to do all I have now.

I like SageTV via a HDT300.

What I have not seen in forums is anyone asking if us users what are we willing to pay for DRM.

Is that all we need or is there some other hidden items as well?

$200 $300 $400 $500 a license.

There is a point where I would be willing to pay if it cut down the clutter in cupboard and did what everyone says it will do.

Would DRM support then kill all the development people do as addons?

Maybe a poll on what people willing to pay SageTv for DRM support is needed.

?
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  #2  
Old 12-08-2010, 09:15 AM
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I think this has been discussed and/or polled before, but I'm feeling lazy and don't want to search for it. Anyhow, I expect to be in the minority here, but I'd want a REFUND if they fully implemented DRM. (I kid, obviously, since I know that wouldn't be possible, but it made my point.) Assuming it still has to be implemented whereby everything is in a protected path and they need to abide by the "no copy" flag on TV shows, I would then have something which is as tightly locked down as my Tivo, DirecTivo, and DirecTV DVR were. I left those for SageTV to get away from DRM. If DRM brings back what I didn't like about those devices, I'll be jumping ship.

Now, if the way DRM gets implemented doesn't impact me negatively, then I'll stick around, so long as the licensing price doesn't go up significantly as a result. I have a slight issue subsidizing other people.
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  #3  
Old 12-08-2010, 09:44 AM
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I concur with Skirge on this. I chose sage because it didn't have drm... if I had to pay more to keep my recordings locked up, where I could not longer choose to do with them as I please, then I'd find another solution. (although I admit it would be hard to find a solution as good as sagetv)

What I'd rather see, is an add-on option, where people that want DRM can pay more for the DRM add-ons (netflix, cablecard, etc), but people like myself, would never need need to subsidize it. It means that people that want DRM will pay even more, but, as you said, if it cuts down on the clutter, then it might be worth it, for you.
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  #4  
Old 12-08-2010, 09:56 AM
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if sage paid me $200 per sage License, I think I might be ok with DRM... maybe...
although, I would probably just take the $400 (total, 2 license) and start looking for a new solution...

now on the other hand, if SlySoft came up with an AnyCableCard/AnyNETFLIX/AnyHULU/AnyETC (or some such) DRM stripper that made those services work better with Sage, that may be worth Paying $200 for...
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  #5  
Old 12-08-2010, 10:42 AM
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Let me first start by saying I don't expect to ever see Sage support DRM- at least, not the type to support cablecard. I could imagine more limited DRM support on extenders to support Netflix streaming, but I think Sage is too small to catch Netflix's eye.

I don't have a particular aversion to DRM- I have an aversion to things getting in my way. I think, given my uses of SageTV, DRM wouldn't (or at least shouldn't) get in the way much. I use placeshifting or mobile streaming a few times a year, so I wouldn't miss that. I'd miss commercial skipping, but frankly comskip does so poorly on most of my HD-PVR recordings that I'd happily give that up too in exchange for cablecard support.

I think it should be possible to design PVR software like Sage that would apply DRM protections to copy-protected material coming from OCUR devices, without having a meaningful impact on material coming from sources that lack copy-protection (e.g., the HD-PVR, QAM tuners, etc.). I've actually spent a fair amount of time digging through the OpenCable specifications. It's a little vague about the requirements on the PC side, but it really, really looks like all they care about on the PC side is that its running an approved DRM system.

I think I've been getting dirt-cheap updates to SageTV for years. I wouldn't mind paying something roughly equivalent to a full-price upgrade for a Sage v8. I wouldn't be very happy about some sort of special price for DRM-supporting versions, largely because I think it perpetuates the idea that DRM is inherently bad, and I don't agree with that. I suppose that's equally as much of a "political" statement as the suggests that it be an add-on. As long as it doesn't have major repercussions for existing functionality, I don't think it should be viewed any differently than any other feature that Sage might add. Sure, not everyone will use it, but not everyone uses Studio, plugins, or the plugins repository. I don't necessarily have a problem with module-based pricing, I just don't like the idea of singling out DRM.

In any event, I suspect it's probably a moot point. I don't think Sage has the time, money or inclination to support DRM. Even though I no longer thing expensive cablecard certification would be required, I suspect they'd need to make huge changes. That may very well be their downfall someday. Even if AllVid does come, the FCC seems to agree DRM would need to be part of the solution. But, we've got lots of years before that stuff is likely to be a big problem.
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  #6  
Old 12-08-2010, 10:57 AM
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I'm just going to roughly echo everyone else, I would not pay a dime more for DRM. DRM makes the product less useful, and for me, being on Satellite, it doesn't even do me a bit of good (can't use CC even if it were supported).

Now, would I jump ship? I don't know, it would depend on how restrictive/bug free it is. If my Sage experience didn't change, if my recordings remained DRM-free, I'd probably be OK.

But if I started running into things like not being able to use ShowAnalyzer or bogus "recording not allowed" errors like WMC users get from time to time, well for my use, a Dish DVR would serve my needs and I'd consider packing up SageTV as my DVR. And if I did that I might end up packing it up entirely and going with a "better" or different (Dune?) movie playing option.
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  #7  
Old 12-08-2010, 11:17 AM
Nelbert Nelbert is offline
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DRM for what and for who?

If they implement DRM for the US market services does that mean they'll also need to implement all the European versions of DRM currently in use? How would it affect non-us users?

Would I pay for a product which restricts what I can do with the content I record? Nope, it'd be out the door. None of the equipment I'm replacing SageTV with implements drm and lets me use my content as I wish. As I still want to reduce my box count without restricting the way we use content, Sage would not be a useful product for me.

If you mean licensing commercial DVD/BD playback then that is useful, if you mean abiding by what the broadcast companies say I can or can't do with things I've recorded that is not useful.
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  #8  
Old 12-08-2010, 11:27 AM
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Thumbs down Nothing

zero, zip, zilch.

I Got SageTV for three reasons
1. no drm
2. extenders
3. NO DRM

I still have an entire directory of old .tivo files that Im optimistically hoping to be able to one day convert (eg strip the crap off of something I legitimately recorded from content providers that I paid for). No more of that for me. My recordings, I'll do as I like, thank you.

If Sage bought into the DRM hype, I would not immediately leave but it certainly would have me on heightened alert for a new PVR solution.
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  #9  
Old 12-08-2010, 12:13 PM
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At the very least, I wouldn't update to the version that implemented it. For my personal situation, DRM is a no-go; period. IM(ns)HO, DRM boils down to: What "they" want, when "they" want it, and how "they" want it. </rant>

Seeing that the DRM gods aren't into exemptions to their crumby lockdowns, I'll stick with whatever is available that is DRM-free.
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  #10  
Old 12-08-2010, 12:28 PM
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GKusnick GKusnick is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by reggie14 View Post
I don't think it should be viewed any differently than any other feature that Sage might add.
DRM is different because it's not a feature that end-users want. It's an obstacle to providing end-user features, a meaningless hoop for everyone to jump through on their way to getting the feaures they really want. As such it has negative value to end users (as the comments in this thread reflect).

The world would be a better place with less DRM in it, but the way to get there is definitely not by volunteering to pay extra for DRM.
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  #11  
Old 12-08-2010, 01:40 PM
reggie14 reggie14 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GKusnick View Post
DRM is different because it's not a feature that end-users want. It's an obstacle to providing end-user features, a meaningless hoop for everyone to jump through on their way to getting the feaures they really want. As such it has negative value to end users (as the comments in this thread reflect).
No, but CableCard support is a feature that at least some end-users want, and DRM necessary for that. If AllVid ever comes, Sage will need DRM to support that. A necessary, but certainly not sufficient, condition for "real" support for paid streaming media is DRM support.

DRM isn't the feature- it just provides a mechanism for supporting features.

If its true that Sage could get away with including DRM to support cablecard without impacting non-copy-protected sources, then it seems like the comments here are just reflective of people taking some sort of principled stand against DRM because "DRM is evil".

I'd be much more receptive to the comments here if people said things along the lines of "CableCard support is fine, but I really don't want to lose the ability to use Placeshifter." Or "Automatic commercial skipping is more important to me than CableCard support." But instead its statements like "I'd want a REFUND if they fully implemented DRM", and "DRM is a no-go; period." That sounds a lot more like being against DRM for the sake of being against DRM, which is how a lot of arguments over DRM go.

To his credit, Stanger did highlight two specific examples: commercial skipping and recording restrictions. And I agree those are two great examples of things to be worried about. But then he said "If my Sage experience didn't change, if my recordings remained DRM-free, I'd probably be OK.[emphasis added]". Probably? If your Sage experience doesn't change, what difference does it make for you? Maybe you might not be pleased that Sage devoted months of effort to make the core changes, but in and of itself that doesn't seem like a reason to jump ship.
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  #12  
Old 12-08-2010, 01:43 PM
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The question was - Would you pay more for having the ability to record and watch DRM'ed shows (I think). The OP said nothing about REMOVING the ability to record and watch non-DRM'ed shows (or forcing DRM on every show even if there was originally no DRM.)

If Sage charged an "upgrade fee" to be able to ADD the ability to use CableCard solutions while not REMOVING any functionality, I'd pay for that.

I think people have an emotional reaction whenever they see DRM. They see those 3 letters, their blood boils, and the red mist hampers their decision making process.

I think it would be fine if Sage charged extra for a DRM enabled product. If you don't want to use a CableCard, don't pay for the unnecessary upgrade. If you do want the functionality, and think the fee is reasonable, buy the license. What's the issue?

Maybe some people fear that if Sage goes down that path they are somehow "selling out" or "going over to the dark side", I don't see it that way at all. If Sage is ever to gain more popularity they need to support CableCard and NetFlix.
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  #13  
Old 12-08-2010, 01:49 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tmiranda View Post
The question was - Would you pay more for having the ability to record and watch DRM'ed shows (I think). The OP said nothing about REMOVING the ability to record and watch non-DRM'ed shows (or forcing DRM on every show even if there was originally no DRM.)

If Sage charged an "upgrade fee" to be able to ADD the ability to use CableCard solutions while not REMOVING any functionality, I'd pay for that.

I think people have an emotional reaction whenever they see DRM. They see those 3 letters, their blood boils, and the red mist hampers their decision making process.

I think it would be fine if Sage charged extra for a DRM enabled product. If you don't want to use a CableCard, don't pay for the unnecessary upgrade. If you do want the functionality, and think the fee is reasonable, buy the license. What's the issue?

Maybe some people fear that if Sage goes down that path they are somehow "selling out" or "going over to the dark side", I don't see it that way at all. If Sage is ever to gain more popularity they need to support CableCard and NetFlix.
As was noted before... as long as the people, such as yourself, pay more, but the people like myself, that don't want it or can't even use it, are not forced to subsidize, then I'd be ok with that. My sage license costs me $99 because I don't want/need netflix, and I can't use cablecard... but Your license costs $600 because you do want those things. I'm all for that.

But, if the cost of adding cablecard or netflix means that we all pay $200 across the board, then i'm out.
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  #14  
Old 12-08-2010, 01:51 PM
Brent Brent is offline
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I enjoy reading threads like this. Ask the question a little different and you might get a slightly different answer:

"How much would you pay for SageTV to have access to all Cable & Satellite Channels without needing a separate cable box?"
or
"How much would you pay to get Netflix Online content built-in to SageTV"

DRM by itself has a bad name (for good reasons) in much of this community, but many of those same people WANT Netflix access for instance. So are we willing to pay extra for Netflix access which would of course include DRM? I think yes as long as it didn't mean locking down our other content.
Alternatively are we willing to pay extra for CableCard support of something similar? I think if handled in a similar fashion this could work as well.

Whether it was obvious or not, I'm thinking we've already payed for some sort of DRM via SageTV since they have a PlayReady license already. Or it could be something we'll have to pay extra for to get _____ or _____.

Answering DRM is evil always is sort of short-sighted in my opinion. I understand not liking DRM (I don't like it all that much) but I also understand that it will be with us given the video content market and if we want access to all media we'll have to live with it in some form at least. It doesn't have to mean everything gets DRM-wrapped.
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Old 12-08-2010, 02:11 PM
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Skirge01 Skirge01 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by reggie14 View Post
But instead its statements like "I'd want a REFUND if they fully implemented DRM", and "DRM is a no-go; period." That sounds a lot more like being against DRM for the sake of being against DRM, which is how a lot of arguments over DRM go.
Since you picked out my line here, I figured I should respond. I also wrote quite a bit more than that, including the fact that it was a joke. You also went on to "credit" Stanger:

Quote:
To his credit, Stanger did highlight two specific examples: commercial skipping and recording restrictions. And I agree those are two great examples of things to be worried about. But then he said "If my Sage experience didn't change, if my recordings remained DRM-free, I'd probably be OK.[emphasis added]". Probably? If your Sage experience doesn't change, what difference does it make for you? Maybe you might not be pleased that Sage devoted months of effort to make the core changes, but in and of itself that doesn't seem like a reason to jump ship.
Yet, I also gave my reasons for being concerned. I thought they were pretty clear. I also stated, "Now, if the way DRM gets implemented doesn't impact me negatively, then I'll stick around..." I thought that was pretty clear, too.

The original question was:

Quote:
Maybe a poll on what people willing to pay SageTv for DRM support is needed.
Granted, that wasn't specifically a question, but I think it was pretty obviously implied. So, what would I be willing to pay for DRM support? Nothing. I then went on to list my--quite valid--concerns about what has happened when other software implemented DRM support.

Now, if the question is what tmiranda posed (which I just pointed out was not the OP's question), regarding what people would be willing to pay add CC support and not change my options, while my answer is still "nothing", I wouldn't have an issue with CC support being added.

So, am I against DRM? Yes, if it impacts how I can watch my shows, when I can watch my shows, or where I can watch my shows. If it doesn't impact me in that fashion, then throw all the DRM you want into the mix. But then, what's the point of having the DRM at that point?
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Old 12-08-2010, 02:37 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by stuckless View Post
As was noted before... as long as the people, such as yourself, pay more, but the people like myself, that don't want it or can't even use it, are not forced to subsidize, then I'd be ok with that. My sage license costs me $99 because I don't want/need netflix, and I can't use cablecard... but Your license costs $600 because you do want those things. I'm all for that.

But, if the cost of adding cablecard or netflix means that we all pay $200 across the board, then i'm out.
Exactly my view as well. That's why I think the best way to go would be to charge extra for CableCard support while leaving the "core" pricing as is. Of course I would not pay $600, but $100 would be reasonable.
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Old 12-08-2010, 02:39 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Brent View Post
Answering DRM is evil always is sort of short-sighted in my opinion. I understand not liking DRM (I don't like it all that much) but I also understand that it will be with us given the video content market and if we want access to all media we'll have to live with it in some form at least. It doesn't have to mean everything gets DRM-wrapped.
DRM for me is pretty simple, there's basically three categories:

1) If it's content I purchased, it shouldn't have DRM, and I won't buy it if it has DRM on it (unless there's some way around it ). Think CDs, DVDs, etc.

2) If it's content that hasn't previously had DRM on it, I will fight tooth and nail to keep it DRM free. I roll SageTV and TV recordings into this. It is value removed to add DRM to this.

3) If it's content that is not purchased, and DRM enables receipt of that, then yeah, DRM is to be expected and accepted.

There's a case for DRM, but that case is for new usage models like Netflix streaming, online rentals (Xbox Live/Zune), etc, not for purchases or recordings. I view DRM on TV recordings as taking something away from me. I'm certainly not going to pay for SageTV to take away my control over recordings.
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  #18  
Old 12-08-2010, 02:40 PM
farscapesg1 farscapesg1 is offline
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For DRM.. nothing.

For the ability to implement cablecard natively and not affect how I use SageTV... probably an additional $50-$100 for the server license.

Things I would still require from SageTV with Cablecard support (in order of importance)...

1) Client access to all recordings
2) Commercial Skipping
3) Ability to cut commercials, encode to H.264 for space savings, and move to media storage (as opposed to my recording drives)
4) Placeshifter
5) Access to the files by other software on the same server (ie. Air Video for streaming to my iPhone).

1 and 2 are must have... 3 is very important... 4 and 5 I can live without but they make my travel and lunch hours much more enjoyable

Somehow I just don't see any DRM implementation leaving this all intact... which is sad because I really need CableCard support. I know there is the HD-PVR, but it just doesn't cut it for my needs (2-3 tuners). The cost of the units + "possible" headaches + renting STBs for each one isn't realistic for me. Those that have it working... I applaud you for either limiting your TV shows or being willing to spend more money with your cable/satellite provider than I am
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Old 12-08-2010, 02:42 PM
Brent Brent is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Stanger89
I'm certainly not going to pay for SageTV to take away my control over recordings.
Not sure this is about "taking away control of recordings."

IF DRM were added it would be for:
a. Online content we don't have already
b. recordings captured from DRM-required devices.

It wouldn't add DRM to recordings captured from devices you own today like the HDHR, HD-PVR, etc etc. If they did that, then yes I would be as unhappy as everyone else. But I don't see Jeff or anyone else at SageTV doing that ever.


Its worth noting that this was a hypothetical question posed on the forums - not SageTV saying they were doing anything on this front.
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Old 12-08-2010, 02:48 PM
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GKusnick GKusnick is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Brent View Post
Answering DRM is evil always is sort of short-sighted in my opinion. I understand not liking DRM (I don't like it all that much) but I also understand that it will be with us given the video content market and if we want access to all media we'll have to live with it in some form at least.
This reasoning is exactly backwards in my opinion. If DRM turns out to be a money-loser for the content industry, they will eventually abandon it. Whereas if we buy into the notion that it's inevitable and are willing to pay extra for it, then it becomes entrenched as a successful money-maker for them. If you don't like DRM, then your far-sighted goal should be to resist that entrenchment, not to cave in to it.
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