SageTV Community  

Go Back   SageTV Community > Hardware Support > Hardware Support

Notices

Hardware Support Discussions related to using various hardware setups with SageTV products. Anything relating to capture cards, remotes, infrared receivers/transmitters, system compatibility or other hardware related problems or suggestions should be posted here.

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
  #1  
Old 02-05-2009, 10:37 AM
PLUCKYHD PLUCKYHD is offline
SageTVaholic
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 6,257
WHS and lots of storage options?

What are you guys doing for WHS and 9tb of storage situations? The way I see it to have everything backed up I will have to have 18tb of total storage with windows home server correct?

The case I am looking at has enough room inside for 6 internal hard drives so that takes care of the first 9tb by using 1.5tb drives.

What external enclosures are you using that will hold six drives? hoping esata as I don't know that usb drives would fit my needs?

Thanks
Reply With Quote
  #2  
Old 02-05-2009, 10:50 AM
mikejaner's Avatar
mikejaner mikejaner is offline
Sage Icon
 
Join Date: Oct 2003
Location: Chantilly VA
Posts: 2,087
Send a message via MSN to mikejaner
Here's a product for starters:
http://www.pc-pitstop.com/sata_enclosures/scsat84x.asp

All you need is a 4x multilane SATA cards etc.......
__________________
Mike Janer
SageTV HD300 Extender X2
Sage Server: AMD X4 620,2048MB RAM,SageTV 7.x ,2X HDHR Primes, 2x HDHomerun(original). 80GB OS Drive, Video Drives: Local 2TB Drive GB RAID5
Reply With Quote
  #3  
Old 02-05-2009, 10:57 AM
PLUCKYHD PLUCKYHD is offline
SageTVaholic
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 6,257
Man that is nice but sure is pricey
Reply With Quote
  #4  
Old 02-05-2009, 11:13 AM
PLUCKYHD PLUCKYHD is offline
SageTVaholic
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 6,257
A couple more questions.

Can someone explain the "pool" more to a whs newb. Is this drives that are included in the data reduncy? Is it a 1:1 ratio in other words do I need 2tb of storage for 1tb of availabilty.

I am wanting all my pics, music, a couple of apple computers, and my movies (aboot 6tb) in the reduncy check where if a drive fails I don't lose the information.

Thanks again.
Reply With Quote
  #5  
Old 02-05-2009, 11:22 AM
stanger89's Avatar
stanger89 stanger89 is offline
SageTVaholic
 
Join Date: May 2003
Location: Marion, IA
Posts: 15,186
Quote:
Originally Posted by PLUCKYHD View Post
A couple more questions.

Can someone explain the "pool" more to a whs newb. Is this drives that are included in the data reduncy? Is it a 1:1 ratio in other words do I need 2tb of storage for 1tb of availabilty.
The pool itself is nothing more than an abstraction layer that makes all the disks appear as one volume. In addition to that WHS has the capability to duplicate data to multiple disks. If you enable it for a folder, all data in it is written to two disks.

So as you note, if you want all your data redundant using the WHS pool, then you have to turn on duplication for everything and then everything you write to the pool gets writen twice, meaning you need 2x the drives vs no redundancy.

Quote:
I am wanting all my pics, music, a couple of apple computers, and my movies (aboot 6tb) in the reduncy check where if a drive fails I don't lose the information.

Thanks again.
Yeah, for that you'd need 12TB of disks using WHS duplication.

Another option would be to use RAID-5 or RAID-6. This only "costs" you one (two for RAID-6) drives worth of space, so you only need one extra drive.
Reply With Quote
  #6  
Old 02-05-2009, 11:28 AM
PLUCKYHD PLUCKYHD is offline
SageTVaholic
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 6,257
Yeah I use raid in work enviroment but I really want to stick with WHS version of "raid" if you will for it's ease of setup and use. But maybe Raid would be a better/cheaper option.
Reply With Quote
  #7  
Old 02-05-2009, 11:53 AM
DOS64K's Avatar
DOS64K DOS64K is offline
Sage Advanced User
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Olympia, WA
Posts: 141
I'm using this (AMS T-4S) for additional storage on my WHS setup. It comes with a PCI-Ex1 eSATA card with two connectors (allowing you potentially use two of these rigs) and I use it in a JBOD mode with 4 X 500GB Spinpoints. The vendor does have a list of compatible 1TB drives (it's a short list), but it may be an option for you. WHS recognized the drives immediately once configured in the vendor's GUI.
__________________
Sage Server: SageTV v7.0.21WHS
MB/CPU/RAM: Asus A8N5X NF4; Athlon64 X2 4200; 3GB RAM
OS: WHS PP3
Capture: 1 x HDHR (Both tuning QAM); 1 x HD-PVR C2 (Component to Moto DCH-3200 - Channel change via Firewire);
Extenders: 2 x STX-HD100; 1 x HD-300 (Panny G20 50" Plasma, Sony 32" LCD, Sammy 26 " LCD)
Reply With Quote
  #8  
Old 02-05-2009, 12:02 PM
stanger89's Avatar
stanger89 stanger89 is offline
SageTVaholic
 
Join Date: May 2003
Location: Marion, IA
Posts: 15,186
Quote:
Originally Posted by PLUCKYHD View Post
Yeah I use raid in work enviroment but I really want to stick with WHS version of "raid" if you will for it's ease of setup and use. But maybe Raid would be a better/cheaper option.
Duplication gets very expensive, very quickly with large quantities of data. And then there's the logicistics as well, like powering and storing tons of drives.
Reply With Quote
  #9  
Old 02-05-2009, 12:40 PM
PLUCKYHD PLUCKYHD is offline
SageTVaholic
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 6,257
Quote:
Originally Posted by stanger89 View Post
Duplication gets very expensive, very quickly with large quantities of data. And then there's the logicistics as well, like powering and storing tons of drives.

Oh I agree but after taking the time to rip my 1000 dvd collection I don't want to have to do it again
Reply With Quote
  #10  
Old 02-05-2009, 12:40 PM
PLUCKYHD PLUCKYHD is offline
SageTVaholic
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 6,257
Quote:
Originally Posted by DOS64K View Post
I'm using this (AMS T-4S) for additional storage on my WHS setup. It comes with a PCI-Ex1 eSATA card with two connectors (allowing you potentially use two of these rigs) and I use it in a JBOD mode with 4 X 500GB Spinpoints. The vendor does have a list of compatible 1TB drives (it's a short list), but it may be an option for you. WHS recognized the drives immediately once configured in the vendor's GUI.
Where did you buy these from?
Reply With Quote
  #11  
Old 02-05-2009, 12:45 PM
S_M_E S_M_E is offline
Sage Fanatic
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 908
Is your server running headless in a closet or in the garage, perhaps?

If so, you can just get another case/PSU to hold your hard drives and run the cables from one case to the server or you could replace your current server case with one better suited for your needs. A 6 drive case really isn't made for your storage requirements.

The other question is; do you really have 9T now or is that what you're expecting to have sometime in the future? 2T drives are already out and while they're expensive now, the prices will drop and larger drives will come out. 2T drives will mean you need less drives. If you can start with 1.5T drives and add 2T (or larger) drives later, you might not need as many drives as you think.

The route I would go is a case designed to hold more drives or a second "cheaper" case to hold the extras.

EDIT:
A case like this:
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produc...82E16811128020
Is 86 dollars and holds 9 drives. (9x2T=18T)

Last edited by S_M_E; 02-05-2009 at 12:53 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #12  
Old 02-05-2009, 02:05 PM
Trepidati0n Trepidati0n is offline
Sage Advanced User
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Posts: 108
Quote:
Originally Posted by stanger89 View Post
Duplication gets very expensive, very quickly with large quantities of data. And then there's the logicistics as well, like powering and storing tons of drives.
A decent 8 channel RAID card is $400+. If you want 16 channel...grab ankles. RAID is not easy for expansion (takes a ton of time) and rebuilds with consumer drives suffer from a high probability of a URE which means a failed rebuild. RAID5/6 should only be used if you need "uptime" and not data integrity/safety.

Powering the drives these days is a joke. You can easily buy a very good 750W PSU for $70 (like PCP&C). That can easily handle 20 drives w/o flinching. Today's "green" drives PEAK at 15W during startup.

You can get a Norco 4020 which can hold a ton of drives and all hot swap --> http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produc...82E16811219021

If you need more ports, buy the supermicro 8 port non raid controller (it will fit in PCI slots) for $100/pop

In short, a Norco 4020, 2 supermicro cards, with an ATX mobo (need PCI slot for tuners for some people), and 750W supply will provide pretty much all you need for a long time.

I have seen way too many RAID5 fail in the past 3 months w/ consumer grade equipment to even remotely recommend it to the home user. It is just not worth the grief.


EDIT: People with large servers and nice TV's in their house should really check the electronics coverage in their home insurance. Most times that is limited to only a few 1000.

Last edited by Trepidati0n; 02-05-2009 at 02:07 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #13  
Old 02-05-2009, 02:12 PM
S_M_E S_M_E is offline
Sage Fanatic
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 908
Quote:
Originally Posted by Trepidati0n View Post
In short, a Norco 4020, 2 supermicro cards, with an ATX mobo (need PCI slot for tuners for some people), and 750W supply will provide pretty much all you need for a long time.

I have seen way too many RAID5 fail in the past 3 months w/ consumer grade equipment to even remotely recommend it to the home user. It is just not worth the grief.


EDIT: People with large servers and nice TV's in their house should really check the electronics coverage in their home insurance. Most times that is limited to only a few 1000.
I agree on all counts. 20 drives is probably more than is needed for WHS but not the record.
Reply With Quote
  #14  
Old 02-05-2009, 04:24 PM
bhyman1 bhyman1 is offline
Sage Aficionado
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Posts: 347
Quote:
Originally Posted by DOS64K View Post
I'm using this (AMS T-4S) for additional storage on my WHS setup. It comes with a PCI-Ex1 eSATA card with two connectors (allowing you potentially use two of these rigs) and I use it in a JBOD mode with 4 X 500GB Spinpoints. The vendor does have a list of compatible 1TB drives (it's a short list), but it may be an option for you. WHS recognized the drives immediately once configured in the vendor's GUI.
These work great. I've used three of the Sans Digital version of these. They work perfectly with the WD 1TB Green Drives too.

Quote:
Originally Posted by PLUCKYHD View Post
Where did you buy these from?
I think Newegg has them.
Reply With Quote
  #15  
Old 02-05-2009, 05:11 PM
stanger89's Avatar
stanger89 stanger89 is offline
SageTVaholic
 
Join Date: May 2003
Location: Marion, IA
Posts: 15,186
Quote:
Originally Posted by PLUCKYHD View Post
Oh I agree but after taking the time to rip my 1000 dvd collection I don't want to have to do it again
Note I said "duplication", not redundancy. I completely understand the value of redundancy, my point was as storage requirement grow, the cost of "redundancy by duplication" goes up very fast.

"Redundancy by parity" (eg RAID-5) has a higher cost of entry, but it's cost is fixed and doesn't really increase as capacity needs grow (that is assuming you chose the right components to meet your eventual needs in the first place, eg number of ports).

Quote:
Originally Posted by Trepidati0n View Post
A decent 8 channel RAID card is $400+. If you want 16 channel...grab ankles. RAID is not easy for expansion (takes a ton of time) and rebuilds with consumer drives suffer from a high probability of a URE which means a failed rebuild. RAID5/6 should only be used if you need "uptime" and not data integrity/safety.
The cost of duplicated drives can easily exceed the cost of a good RAID card. The line today is probably around 6TB, after which the extra drives required for duplication cost more than the RAID card and one extra drive for RAID. Besides there are options like unRAID, and FlexRAID which use parity based redundancy, but with the benefits of no expensive RAID card and arbitrarilly sized drives.

Quote:
Powering the drives these days is a joke. You can easily buy a very good 750W PSU for $70 (like PCP&C). That can easily handle 20 drives w/o flinching. Today's "green" drives PEAK at 15W during startup.
Powering is easy, startup is what's hard, without staggered spinup at least. 750W is basically required to spool up 10 drives simultaneously. The WD Green Drives (the large ones) pull a peak of about 1.75A on the 12V rail, more standard drives are over 2A. All I know is I've got about 11 drives in my server (no staggered spinup) and a 650 wasn't enough.

Quote:
You can get a Norco 4020 which can hold a ton of drives and all hot swap --> http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produc...82E16811219021

If you need more ports, buy the supermicro 8 port non raid controller (it will fit in PCI slots) for $100/pop

In short, a Norco 4020, 2 supermicro cards, with an ATX mobo (need PCI slot for tuners for some people), and 750W supply will provide pretty much all you need for a long time.
I wouldn't feel comfortable trying to spool up 20 drives on a 750W PSU without staggered spinup.

Quote:
I have seen way too many RAID5 fail in the past 3 months w/ consumer grade equipment to even remotely recommend it to the home user. It is just not worth the grief.
I'm not sure what you consider "consumer grade" but that's why I always discourage the use of stuff like Highpoint, Promise, Raidcore, etc.

My 3ware card has been flawless for four years now, and saved me twice with drive failures.

I'd hate to try and manage another 7 drives in that machine.

Quote:
Originally Posted by S_M_E View Post
I agree on all counts. 20 drives is probably more than is needed for WHS but not the record.
20 drives is not that unrealistic if you've got on the order of 10TB you want rendundant. And 10TB isn't all that much anymore.
Reply With Quote
  #16  
Old 02-05-2009, 05:46 PM
DOS64K's Avatar
DOS64K DOS64K is offline
Sage Advanced User
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Olympia, WA
Posts: 141
Quote:
Originally Posted by PLUCKYHD View Post
Where did you buy these from?
Newegg.
__________________
Sage Server: SageTV v7.0.21WHS
MB/CPU/RAM: Asus A8N5X NF4; Athlon64 X2 4200; 3GB RAM
OS: WHS PP3
Capture: 1 x HDHR (Both tuning QAM); 1 x HD-PVR C2 (Component to Moto DCH-3200 - Channel change via Firewire);
Extenders: 2 x STX-HD100; 1 x HD-300 (Panny G20 50" Plasma, Sony 32" LCD, Sammy 26 " LCD)
Reply With Quote
  #17  
Old 02-05-2009, 05:50 PM
S_M_E S_M_E is offline
Sage Fanatic
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 908
Quote:
Originally Posted by bhyman1 View Post
These work great. I've used three of the Sans Digital version of these. They work perfectly with the WD 1TB Green Drives too.
Do they work with 1.5T or the new 2T drives? Will they be updated to support larger drives in the future?

If not, I'd avoid them. I'd rather just use a case that holds all of my drives than those, personally. 4 drives using one USB or eSata port gives me pause too.
Reply With Quote
  #18  
Old 02-05-2009, 11:30 PM
something fishy something fishy is offline
Sage Advanced User
 
Join Date: Sep 2004
Posts: 231
I use a coolermaster stacker full tower case and 3x "5 in 3" sata backplanes.
That leaves me with two 5-1/2 inch bays free that are filled with
- a separate hot swappable sata drive (which I use for backup of really important stuff)
- an ODD

This gives me:
2 system drives (Raid1 using a Sil 5744 port multiplier)
11 pool drives
2 sagetv recording drives (mine are separate as they came from a prev install)
1 (mostly removed and held offsite) backup HDD

In my case a 650watt single rail PS powers this lot (I use PCP&C and I've never had any problems spinning up fully loaded). It is built on a Gigabyte mainboard which has 8 sata ports and one parallel port to which I've added 4x 2 headed sata cards in the pci-e slots (including the graphics slot). This leaves me all three normal PCI slots free for tuners.

Its (just) quiet enough to leave in the corner of my office (but you wouldn't want it in your living room).

Eric
Reply With Quote
  #19  
Old 02-06-2009, 07:01 AM
bhyman1 bhyman1 is offline
Sage Aficionado
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Posts: 347
I'm doing something similar right now.

Big Cooler Master case that has 9 5.25" bays when you take out the control panel thing.

It's going to have 4 of those 5 in 3 SATA hot swap bays for up to 20 drives. I'll be using the 4 built in SATA ports, and then two Supermicro 8 port SATA cards. Then 3 recording drives (outside the whs pool), 1 OS drive, and the rest for the WHS storage pool.

I grabbed a Corsair 850 watt single 12v rail PSU to power it all. Plenty of power for this.

There's a guy over on [H]ardforums who builds gigantic servers every year it seems. This year he went with the above mentioned Norco case, and some of the Corsair 750 watt single 12v rail PSU's. He's had ZERO problems. If you happen to be a member over there do a search for "Galaxy 5.0".

edit: here's the thread for those interested in really big WHS installs. http://www.hardforum.com/showthread.php?t=1251660

Last edited by bhyman1; 02-06-2009 at 07:19 AM.
Reply With Quote
  #20  
Old 02-06-2009, 08:33 AM
TallMomof2's Avatar
TallMomof2 TallMomof2 is offline
Sage Aficionado
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Posts: 258
My server isn't as big as yours but I have an Antec Three Hundred case with 6-3.5" bays. Those are currently full. My plan is convert the 5.25" bays to 3.5" and add 3 more drives (and a sata/esata card) when the 2TB drives drop in price. Right now I have 5TB (4 Samsung 1TB and one WD Green 1TB) in the pool and it's getting a bit crowded.
__________________
Server: Windows 8x64, ASUS P8 H67-M Pro Micro ATX, Core i5, 8 RAM, 14TB running latest Sage

Clients: HD200, HD300, Win7 Desktop

Capture Devices: Hauppauge Colossus & 1 HDHR, TV Service: Verizon FIOS
Reply With Quote
Reply


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Massive Storage Solution(s) -- The search for a fast/expandable/HUGE storage solution taylork Hardware Support 82 08-17-2009 04:36 PM
Mini PC kit - lots of uses steingra The SageTV Community 14 04-14-2008 02:43 PM
Storage questions, NAS, WOL, lots of stuff! Kirby Hardware Support 36 08-21-2006 06:59 PM
Archive/storage space options robinson Hardware Support 5 08-10-2005 01:54 PM
Network storage VS local storage darkside SageTV Software 0 09-05-2004 09:44 AM


All times are GMT -6. The time now is 11:00 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.11
Copyright ©2000 - 2021, vBulletin Solutions Inc.
Copyright 2003-2005 SageTV, LLC. All rights reserved.