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  #1  
Old 09-19-2011, 08:28 PM
matterofrecord matterofrecord is offline
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Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: uk
Posts: 100
Help needed setting up freesat

Hi

the short version

I need some help tuning my freesat card with sagetv. I'm getting all the channels when I use NPVR but when I use sage to scan for channels I'm missing important channels

The detailed version

I've just bought my first peice of satellite equipment a Compro videomate s350 ( it only does dvb-s NOT dvb-s2 but that is fine with me). I have a connection to a sky dish left by the last tennant. I was wanting to get the free satellite channels using sagetv
[ mostly I was looking for bbc radio 1 to 4 because in my area they stop broadcasting these channels on dvb-t from 5pm to 12pm to make room for bbc alba (a gaelic language channel)]
Afer my first tune I looked through the mass of channels and found bbc radio and some others were missing.

I Can get all the channels using Npvr ( gbpvr) so I don't think the dish or the tuning card are the problem. However I find npvr interface very frustrating to use and would much rather use sagetv.

I've tried some basic updating with "PredefinedDVBS.frq" (like you would with the "PredefinedDVBT.frq" file ) using values from kingofsat but it made no difference. So I deleted all the mappings and I tried tuning to specific frequencies that sage had already recieved in the past and that succeeded. So using the same method and using kingofsat and satbeams for the detials I figured I would try and tune to get bbc radio
I figure the frq file should be
frq:11954000 rate:27500 fec_rate_in:2 pol:1
thats frequency 11954 khz symbol rate 27500 fec value 2/3 and polerisation H

however that failed to find any channels. At this point I have no idea why not. npvr can find them so why not sage?

Does any one know what I am doing wrong? I'm all out of ideas so any help would be appreciated ?

In fact is anyone else having this problem or is everyone happily getting bbc radio 1-4?

thanks

Jon

[ LOF and TOS values
I have did make an effort to use lof values but I have no real idea what these are, whether I needed them or what values should be used so I just took some values from wikipedia ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ku_band) and put them in which majorly messed things up as the LOF values can't be reset to "Not Set" (as far as I can tell) so any help with those would be good as well. thanks]

Last edited by matterofrecord; 09-19-2011 at 08:30 PM.
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  #2  
Old 09-20-2011, 02:45 AM
starfire starfire is offline
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Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: England, UK
Posts: 505
don't know use freeview not freesat for radio, but try adding to that line:-

onid:2 tsid:2013 sid:6751
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  #3  
Old 09-20-2011, 04:48 AM
matterofrecord matterofrecord is offline
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Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: uk
Posts: 100
Thanks for the effort starfire but I tried adding "onid:2 tsid:2013 sid:6751" to both the begining and the end of "PredefinedDVBS.frq" and then tuniing and got nowhere. No suprises there.

So next I then added the "onid:2 tsid:2013 sid:6751" to make up an frq entry in the tuner frq file "VideoMate DVB-S Capture-0-DVB-S.frq" file
CH:30 onid:2 tsid:2312 sid:6751 frq:11954000 rate:27500 pol:1 fec_rate_in:2 sat:0 ctrl:1 #:bbcr1
but I already knew from experience that adding channels to the frq file doesn't add them to sage. so I went to add the channel manually using.

station name: BBC-R1DT
station id: 6751
logical guide: 30
Physical (tuning) channel number: 2-2312-6751-30

unfortunately that and a few other tries with other channels made no difference. I must be doing something wrong.

Does anyone know what I'm doing wrong or how I can fix it?

thanks

Jon
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  #4  
Old 09-20-2011, 05:36 AM
starfire starfire is offline
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Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: England, UK
Posts: 505
Quote:
Originally Posted by matterofrecord View Post
So next I then added the "onid:2 tsid:2013 sid:6751" to make up an frq entry in the tuner frq file "VideoMate DVB-S Capture-0-DVB-S.frq" file
CH:30 onid:2 tsid:2312 sid:6751 frq:11954000 rate:27500 pol:1 fec_rate_in:2 sat:0 ctrl:1 #:bbcr1
but I already knew from experience that adding channels to the frq file doesn't add them to sage. so I went to add the channel manually using.
Yep, I meant add them to the tuner .frq file.

Do you have any existing DVB-S channels tuned and working? If so as a test edit one of those entries in the .frq just to prove if the above is correct or not.

Your right, that alone won't configure a new channel in Sage - I use xmltv myself to do that, or you can use a scan in Sage to add new channels and create a new .frq, then edit the new .frq and edit one of the entries and put in the above values.

edit: tried it on one of mine still doesn't work suspect Sage cannot tune radio via DVB-S
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Last edited by starfire; 09-20-2011 at 05:52 AM.
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  #5  
Old 09-20-2011, 08:52 AM
bunch92 bunch92 is offline
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Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: France / UK
Posts: 335
I listen to 2 radio stations through DVB-S , but not BBC radio

CH:900 onid:2 tsid:2612 sid:9560 frq:12523000 rate:27500 mod:20 pol:2 fec_rate_in:2 pilot:0 sat:0 ctrl:1 #:Capital
CH:901 onid:2 tsid:2311 sid:52030 frq:11222170 rate:27500 mod:20 pol:1 fec_rate_in:2 pilot:0 sat:0 ctrl:1 #:Heart


Do these work for you ?
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  #6  
Old 09-20-2011, 09:32 AM
matterofrecord matterofrecord is offline
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Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: uk
Posts: 100
Problem solved

---------------------------
---------------------------
UPDATE - the problem is NOT solved

Do NOT use the frq files listed below in the original post. I did a rescan to elminate the some duplicates and the encypted channels. before rescanning i selected "yes - clear all channel remappings" and rescanned using the exact same frq file that got over 900 channels last time and got nothing the next time ( with or without skipping the encrypted channels). I now have no satllite channels and no idea why. I'm changing my mother board and doing an OS reinstall so may not be able to help ( or hinder ) for about a week or two. I kinda want to get this sorted but I have no real understanding of how satellite tuning works in sagetv. so perhaps this it'll be one for sagetv support to demistify.

---------------------------
---------------------------

The short version

I got all the freesat channels

Problem solved

I changed the "PredefinedDVBS.frq" to tune to
frq:11953000 rate:27500 fec_rate_in:2 pol:1
and now I have got every dvb-s channel ( I think - 926 of them anyway )

The long version

Okay I found the important new info using dvbviewer. I have been using the wrong frequency. When tuning with dvbviewer demo it lists the bbc radio frequency as 11953 NOT 11954 as both satbeams and kingofsat sites has listed.
tuning with just ;

frq:11953000 rate:27500 fec_rate_in:2 pol:1

in the "PredefinedDVBS.frq"
Sage found 926 channels including the bbc radio channels I was looking for.

dvbviewer demo also found the correct lof 1, lof 2 and lof sw values
they are (in mhz)
lof 1 9750
lof 2 10600
lof sw 11700
BUT I did NOT set them or use any lof values to find the channels.

Now I have 926 channels all I need to do is filter out the rubbish and the duplicates and then find an epg method for them.

(as a side note I would also say there seems on first spec to be some speech sync problems with some of the channels. I don't know for sure yet but I check in more detail later.)

BUT for anyone having troubles I would definately recommend using dvbviewer demo to find the correct frequencies and not relying soley on satellite sites ( even when 2 sites give the same details)

what worked for me was editing the "PredefinedDVBS.frq" and replacing
-----------------------------
"Astra (28.2)"
frq:10773000 rate:22000 fec_rate_in:6 pol:1
frq:10788000 rate:22000 fec_rate_in:6 pol:2
frq:11222000 rate:27500 fec_rate_in:2 pol:1
frq:11224000 rate:27500 fec_rate_in:2 pol:2
{AUTO}
-----------------------------
with just
-----------------------------
"Astra (28.2)"
frq:11953000 rate:27500 fec_rate_in:2 pol:1

-----------------------------

fyi the original "PredefinedDVBS.frq" got me about 525 ish channels ( a few duplicates and some channels missing ). the single line updated replacement got me 926 channels ( and as far as I can see thats all the dvb-s channels). I don't have dvb-s2 card so I can't help with bbc and c4 HD channels.

I will report back with epg and any audio syncing info later. Undoubtedly the epg will involve xmltv imports. I was going to try "dvbguide" or "EPG Collector" to download the info over the satellite wires and then reimport it with stephanes sagetv xml importer.

thanks for all the help


jon

PS
I might try and set up a little guide for people new to freesat so that forum users wanting freesat won't have to jump through hoops like I have ( but I am probably not going to buy a dvb-s2 card at £85 when I can get all the hd channels on freeview )

Why does a dvb-s2 card for sage starts at £85 when there are cheaper dvb-s2 cards avaiblable ?

A little piece of advice to any noob ( like I was 2 weeks ago) looking to buy a satellite card for use with sagetv ( and other tuner software ) you might want one with a bda driver ( a bda driver - Broadcast Driver Architecture - is like microsofts unified standard driver a one driver for all programs instead of a bunch o fdifferent proprietry drivers. essentaily sagetv and many other dvr software packages ie MS media center, npvr, media portal should be able to use any tuner with a bda driver. assuming the program supports the broadcast standard ie not all programs support dvb-s or dvb-t or dvb-c but sage does and that why we love it) Not all satellite cards have bda drivers. Some manufacturers prefer their own proprietry driver ( especially with the cheaper satellite cards) so watch out or you may end up having to use terrible bundled software. The only excpetion I have found is TBS satellite cards which suggest they have bda driver without stating it explicitly on their site. ( tbs dvb-s2 tuner cards start at around £50 on amazon - I emailed support to find out if they have a bda driver and they say then do )

As a buyer you have to know the difference between an HD capable card and a dvb-s2 card

Some cards may say they are HD but you won't be able to get c4 and bbc HD because they can only recieve hd channels broadcast in dvd-s and not the channels broadcast in dvb-s2

For instance my card is dvb-s ( NOT dvb-s2 ) however I can get NHK WorldHD ( v boring japanese version of bbc world service ) and ( at the time of writing) ITV1-HD as both channels are broadcast in HD using the dvb-s standard. However I CANNOT get bbc HD, bbc 1HD or Channel 4HD because they are broadcast in hd using the dvd-s2 standard which my card ( compro videomate s350) does not support.

Dvb-s2 is different from dvb-s. Dvb-s2 is more economical on bandwidth and hence more appropriate for HD channels. Although there are currently some dvb-s HD freesat channels I suspect they will soon switch to dvb-s2.


OFF TOPIC RANT WARNING



There is another reason for broadcasters to prefer dvb-s2. that is implimentation of drm on settop boxes. This doesn't effect sagetv. An officially certified freesat HD setop box has the DRM built into the set top box BUT the freesat HD satellite stream itself does NOT have DRM in the channel and the boradcast stream is unencypted. The drm comes from the features added to an official FreesatHD box. an unoffical satellite reciever will be able to bypass any restrictions. This is different from sky that broadcasts an encrypted stream. None of this DRM will effect dvb-s or dvb-s2 cards used for freesat in sagetv. So sage users can record what they want and watch it when they want and not have to worry about restrictions.

The rumours are if a manufacturer wants to sell a settop box as Freesat HD authorised they have to conform to certain standards etc. I've read forum chatter ( ie not official sources ) that suggest a freesatHD certified set top box might mean being able to watch certain movies but not being able to record the movie etc. OR at least not allowing users to export some HD content onto a usb drive or blu-ray/dvd disc like you can do with some freeview plus pvr set top boxes. I have only heard forum chatter about it so it may well be wrong. either way if you are using dvb-s2 card with sagetv you can ignore all these irritations when recording free sat HD. remmeber the drm is built into the consumer settop box and not the program stream so doesn't effect sagetv users. Unlike for sky where the stream comes encrypted. SO why would a equpiment manufacturer bother with freesat authenitcation. essentially they have compressed the epg using huffman encoding. It's not impossible to decompress ( there are utilities that can do it ) it's just a pain to do and if a manufacturer produced a freesat pvr settop box that allowed you to take unlimited external copies with a decoded epg they might find themselves on the unpleasant side of the british autorities.


My cynical take is pirates are going to pirate ( there are loads of HD programs at that famous pirating site - quality HD programs are exported all over the world so if you can't make a copy in the UK you might in the usa or elsewhere ) .If someone wants the occasional HD program with drm set top boxes will no longer be able to get a copy from a friend who has the HD equipment. They will have to buy the HD equipment themselves which = £££sales. equipment manufacturers everywhere rejoice. Although you might find more people will resort to with HD iplayer catch up etc ( that means broadband more clogged ) and pirated versions of shows are still on the pirate sites with their sh***y compressed lack of detail. This fixes nothing for the legal consumer but makes piracy marginally more attractive. In fact if people started pirating more they might not need their sky subscription. Maybe bbc does have an incentive for DRM afterall ( wheres the tin foil hat smilie )

drm and freesatHD
http://forums.digitalspy.co.uk/showthread.php?t=1279125
http://www.wired.co.uk/news/archive/...freeview-boxes

wow that was much longer and with many more brackets than I had planned. sorry

Last edited by matterofrecord; 09-20-2011 at 07:49 PM. Reason: Problem NOT solved. and TBS satellite cards claim the have bda drivers on all products
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