Electric cars and plug-in hybrids

[jarredduq]

I bought a 2013 Volt with 30k miles last December for a little over $16k to replace a 2008 Mazda 3 with nearly 250k miles.

Some numbers to compare. My daily round trip commute is around 70 miles. I charge both at home and work. Most of the time I can charge for free near my office, sometimes I pay (it's about $1.80 when I do).

Mazda numbers based on a year of ownership from Dec 2014-Dec 2015. Please note to keep it consistent I'm using the mileage I've driven from Dec 2015-Dec 2016, which is 21563

2008 Mazda 3
MPG: 27
Gallons of gas consumed: 799
Cost of gas at average of $2.59/reg gal: $2068.49
Maintenance: $120 - 3 oil changes/tire rotations
Grand Total: $2,188.49

2013 Chevrolet Volt
Miles on Gas: 4504.8
Miles on Electric: 17058.6
MPG: 36.9 (When using gas)
Gallons of gas consumed: 122
Cost of gas at average of $2.79/premium gal: $340.38
Home Charging: $312 - approx $1.00 @ 6 days/week
Public Charging: $185 - Please note some of my charging is free
Maintenance: $95 - 3 tire rotations + air filter
HOV lane access (Until January 2019): $Priceless
Grand Total: $932.38

My electric bill has gone down because my utility company PG&E (Northern California) has a special EV rate plan.

Comparing what I paid in 2015, $4340 (Dec 2014-Dec 2015 )with what I paid in 2016, $3080 (Dec 2015-Dec 2016), I paid $1260 less.

With all that said, the Volt has not only exceeded my expectations with it's efficiency, it has actually saved me money.

It is also a great car, with decent acceleration and ride. I've never owned a GM vehicle before, but it has made me a believer in this technology.

The downsides to this car is the overall interior room, with only space for 4 passengers and 10 cubic feet of cargo capacity. It's saving grace is that you can fold the seats to give you extra cargo space when needed.

It would be hard however for the Volt to be your only vehicle, but as a commuter, it is nearly perfect.

I looked at other range-extended electric vehicles such as the Prius Plug-in (11 miles), Ford CMax Energi (21 miles), etc, but they could not hold a candle to the ride quality and overall refinement the Volt has. Also, the volt has the highest electric range (35-45 miles for 2013) of the current range-extended electric vehicles in my price range.

[mdnttoker]

I'm driving a 2014 Ford Fusion hybrid and love it! Very reasonably priced hybrid big enough for the entire fam!

[Monedeath]

Originally Posted by Fuzzy

I think he maintenance schedule on my fiat says to change the cabin air filter every 30,000 miles

Uh.. FYI. The Cabin Air Filter is a passenger convenience feature. That would be an air filter for the air-intake on the car's in-cabin ventilation system.

Many, if not most, passenger vehicles don't bother with one. But I'm becoming rather partial to having one when driving through areas where Allergies act up.

[Fuzzy]

Originally Posted by Monedeath

Uh.. FYI. The Cabin Air Filter is a passenger convenience feature. That would be an air filter for the air-intake on the car's in-cabin ventilation system.

Many, if not most, passenger vehicles don't bother with one. But I'm becoming rather partial to having one when driving through areas where Allergies act up.

I'm well aware of what it is. My point was that was the extent of the maintenance schedule for the vehicle. No oil to change, no oil filter, no fuel filter, no spark plugs, no air filter, etc. Just brakes (that last longer than a gas vehicle, due to regen), and tires.

[wayner]

I have had a Tesla Model S for two years now and it is positively the best car I have ever driven (also the most expensive).

IMHO EVs are superior to ICE vehicles in almost every way - Fuzzy detailed many of the reasons, and there are only two downsides two electric cars - (1) high cost due to price of batteries and (2) range anxiety due to lack of fast charging options.

Hopefully the battery technology continues and (1) is dealt with. (2) is less of an issue with Teslas thanks to the Supercharger infrastructure and in many areas generic chargers are being built - that is happening here in Ontario where there are government subsidized L3 chargers being built right now. The Ontario government subsidizes and Fs up pretty much everything to do with electricity for the consumer.

By the way for those electricity prices that are being quoted - are those all in or just the variable electricity price. Here in Ontario there is about $0.05/kWh of transmission, distribution, etc on top of the quoted price.

[tmiranda]

Originally Posted by wayner

I have had a Tesla Model S for two years now and it is positively the best car I have ever driven (also the most expensive).

I'm jealous I couldn't bring myself to spend that much.

Chevy recently announced the Bolt. It's an all electric vehicle with a 200+ mile range. Cost will be about $37,000 (US) nicely equipped. The $37,000 Tesla they recently announced will be stripped and as far as I can tell will cost about $45,000.

The good news is that the prices are coming down.

[wayner]

The Bolt actually sounds really good - it and the Tesla Model 3 should be similarly priced.

FYI - the reason that I haven't been using the SageTV Alexa skill in the last few days is that I have been working on this:
Nikola: An Alexa Skill (and Python intent handler) for Monitoring and Managing a Connected Tesla Automobile

[tmiranda]

Originally Posted by wayner

The Bolt actually sounds really good - it and the Tesla Model 3 should be similarly priced.

FYI - the reason that I haven't been using the SageTV Alexa skill in the last few days is that I have been working on this:
Nikola: An Alexa Skill (and Python intent handler) for Monitoring and Managing a Connected Tesla Automobile

That looks very cool.

OT (maybe reply in the echo thread?): How good is cloud9? My Echo skill has some limitations and complications due to the fact that I deployed it using Lambda, which is a stateless environment.

[blade]

There is some great information here. My wife would really like to have an electric car at some point, but I haven't done any research because it will be several years before we'll be in the market for another vehicle. One thing I have wondered about and I haven't seen anyone mention it here is the life expectancy of the batteries, cost of replacing them, and how the age of the batteries will impact the resale value.

[wayner]

I think that will depend on a whole bunch of factors, including the type of batteries, the generation of them, etc.

I have a 10+ year old Lexus Hybrid SUV and the batteries still seem fine on that.

The oldest Tesla Model S's are now a little over four years old. I don't know how much degradation they have suffered but there is no noticeable battery degradation on my Model S which was delivered exactly two years ago.

IMHO one of the biggest issues with cars is going to become technological obsolesence, like smartphones or PCs, especially as autonomous driving starts to roll out. My Model S is now far less desirable since the Autopilot 2.0 vehicles have now been rolled out.

[tmiranda]

Originally Posted by blade

There is some great information here. My wife would really like to have an electric car at some point, but I haven't done any research because it will be several years before we'll be in the market for another vehicle. One thing I have wondered about and I haven't seen anyone mention it here is the life expectancy of the batteries, cost of replacing them, and how the age of the batteries will impact the resale value.

+1 to what wayner said.

I know that Chevy took a very conservative approach with the batteries. When the Volt reports the batteries are "empty" they really have about 40% charge left. Chevy did this for several reasons:
- Running the batteries totally down tends to decrease the number of charge cycles before cell failure occurs.
- Under extreme circumstances the generator in the Volt doesn't produce enough power to get the car up long, steep hills and the extra juice in the battery may be needed.
- As cells fail (when is inevitable in any of the current generation batteries) the Volt will reduce the amount of power held in reserve which prevents the reported fully-charged range from decreasing.

Tesla took a much more aggressive engineering approach which is why some Tesla owners see battery degradation after about 80,000 miles.

[Fuzzy]

Battery productions costs will only decrease with time. It would be nice if more manufacturers switched to 'standardized' cells like Tesla uses, and it's entirely possible that will be the case going forward (not meaning they'd all use 18650's, but they may all gravitate to a more appropriate standardized cell).

[thomaszoo]

I have a 2013 Volt, bought new over 4 years ago. Maintenance to date: tire rotations and wheel alignments, 2 oil changes (one every two years) and a few minor recall notices (mostly software). Like jarredduq, my electric bill also dropped due to being on an electric vehicle rate. And we have two plug-in EVs. I currently pay $0.0836/kWh for off-peak charging in Sacramento, CA. >75% of my miles are EV only. I have gone a full year without even putting gas in the tank. And best of all, the car is fun to drive!

[tvmaster2]

Originally Posted by thomaszoo

I have a 2013 Volt, bought new over 4 years ago. Maintenance to date: tire rotations and wheel alignments, 2 oil changes (one every two years) and a few minor recall notices (mostly software). Like jarredduq, my electric bill also dropped due to being on an electric vehicle rate. And we have two plug-in EVs. I currently pay $0.0836/kWh for off-peak charging in Sacramento, CA. >75% of my miles are EV only. I have gone a full year without even putting gas in the tank. And best of all, the car is fun to drive!

wow, it pays to live in the sticks. SoCal off-hour rates are 23 cents in winter, 39 in summer.

[thomaszoo]

Originally Posted by tvmaster2

wow, it pays to live in the sticks. SoCal off-hour rates are 23 cents in winter, 39 in summer.

You can see all the details here:
https://www.smud.org/en/residential/...icing-plan.htm

My peak rate in the summer (4-7 pm weekdays) is $0.2446. The rate plan is being phased out but the new one that replaces it should cost me about the same. The big reason for the difference in rates is SMUD is publicly owned.

[tvmaster2]

Originally Posted by thomaszoo

You can see all the details here:
https://www.smud.org/en/residential/...icing-plan.htm

My peak rate in the summer (4-7 pm weekdays) is $0.2446. The rate plan is being phased out but the new one that replaces it should cost me about the same. The big reason for the difference in rates is SMUD is publicly owned.

lucky guy. Isn't it funny, big business always say private ownership is cheaper. Except in electricity, healthcare, etc., etc.,

[Fuzzy]

Most expensive electricity around me is Riverside's publicly owned service. Noticeably more expensive than the private Southern California Edison that surrounds the city. Public/Private doesn't really matter, it's all just about the actual cost of the energy, and the cost to maintain the associated infrastructure. Profit margins on electricity are pretty slim compared to the cash flow going through the utility, and it only gets worse as the grids age.

[tvmaster2]

Originally Posted by Fuzzy

Most expensive electricity around me is Riverside's publicly owned service. Noticeably more expensive than the private Southern California Edison that surrounds the city. Public/Private doesn't really matter, it's all just about the actual cost of the energy, and the cost to maintain the associated infrastructure. Profit margins on electricity are pretty slim compared to the cash flow going through the utility, and it only gets worse as the grids age.

Funny, I've had friends in LA tell me their public rates are much less expensive than my SDG&E rates are. And the rates in Canada, where it's largely public, are also much cheaper. Can't comment on Riverside, but I generally don't give a pass to a monopoly with regards to aging infrastructure. All I know is our rates keep spiraling up, and our usage keeps going down.

[Fuzzy]

Originally Posted by tvmaster2

Funny, I've had friends in LA tell me their public rates are much less expensive than my SDG&E rates are. And the rates in Canada, where it's largely public, are also much cheaper. Can't comment on Riverside, but I generally don't give a pass to a monopoly with regards to aging infrastructure. All I know is our rates keep spiraling up, and our usage keeps going down.

LA DWP is slightly cheaper than SCE, and quite a bit cheaper than SDG&E. My point on bringing up Riverside was to point away from private vs. public as the culprit towards higher rates - every utility is situational, whether public OR private.

And the aging infrastructure IS a significant issue, and is not necessarily the fault of the 'monopoly' themselves (at least in California). A monopoly that was able to set their own prices would certainly be at fault for not maintaining their system, but the way the CPUC works, they only get a certain amount in their rate structure for maintenance, which affects different providers differently.

[thomaszoo]

I think Riverside is like LADWP where it is owned by the city. That type of electric utility is often used to subsidize other city services, hence the higher rates.