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  #41  
Old 01-26-2017, 09:46 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GrantEdwards View Post
What is a "traditional episode guide"?

I got curious and went looking at the Silicondust web site. The info
on the DVR service is amazingly vague. It talks about how you don't
need an "always on PC", but it never talks about where the recording
app is running. Presumably it's on the HDHR itself?

You obviosly have to provide some sort of storage, but I couldn't find
any specs. I don't see a USB, eSATA, or Firewire connector on any of
the HDHR models. The only interface seems to be Ethrnet, so it must
need some sort of SMB/NFS NAS (which is a type of "always on PC" in my
book, but I don't speak very good marketese).

Unless they're doing Ethernet-attached-SCSI...
Yes it half a@# lie on SiliconDust part and I have agree with you on NAS as they are type of always on PC.
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  #42  
Old 01-26-2017, 10:30 AM
nyplayer nyplayer is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GrantEdwards View Post
What is a "traditional episode guide"?

I got curious and went looking at the Silicondust web site. The info
on the DVR service is amazingly vague. It talks about how you don't
need an "always on PC", but it never talks about where the recording
app is running. Presumably it's on the HDHR itself?

You obviosly have to provide some sort of storage, but I couldn't find
any specs. I don't see a USB, eSATA, or Firewire connector on any of
the HDHR models. The only interface seems to be Ethrnet, so it must
need some sort of SMB/NFS NAS (which is a type of "always on PC" in my
book, but I don't speak very good marketese).

Unless they're doing Ethernet-attached-SCSI...
You can use the ShieldTV pro also to record and playback. You can use a WDMycloud single drive units .... or their Nas units.

Ps they do supply storage devices list. Scroll down to Storage.

https://www.silicondust.com/dvr-service/#devices
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Last edited by nyplayer; 01-26-2017 at 10:40 AM.
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  #43  
Old 01-26-2017, 11:02 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nyplayer View Post
You can use the ShieldTV pro also to record and playback. You can use a WDMycloud single drive units .... or their Nas units.

Ps they do supply storage devices list. Scroll down to Storage.

https://www.silicondust.com/dvr-service/#devices
All your really doing is turn the Shield TV in*to server/client.
As for the WD Mycloud single drive only if it has ethernet port on back as they have embedded NAS OS on board.
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  #44  
Old 01-26-2017, 11:20 AM
SWKerr SWKerr is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GrantEdwards View Post
What is a "traditional episode guide"?

I got curious and went looking at the Silicondust web site. The info
on the DVR service is amazingly vague. It talks about how you don't
need an "always on PC", but it never talks about where the recording
app is running. Presumably it's on the HDHR itself?

You obviosly have to provide some sort of storage, but I couldn't find
any specs. I don't see a USB, eSATA, or Firewire connector on any of
the HDHR models. The only interface seems to be Ethrnet, so it must
need some sort of SMB/NFS NAS (which is a type of "always on PC" in my
book, but I don't speak very good marketese).

Unless they're doing Ethernet-attached-SCSI...
The Silicondust DVR is functional but it is far from ideal. There is no traditional Grid TV Guide. You have show listings and can set up recordings from the list of shows. You also have a listing of channels and can watch live TV and look thru the list of up coming shows but the interface is awkward when compared to the GIRD layout. The Interface is similar to the Plex based DVR.

The Silicondust DVR does need to run on a host of some kind. You can run on a PC or select NAS devices. You can also run on the Nvidia Shield TV with a external hard drive. These same devices also support the Plex server but the lack a powerful cpu limits functionality somewhat.

Also: Only the more resent HDHRs support the DVR functionality.

The Silicondust DVR infrastructure seems to have allowed for the Emby and Plex DVR. The Emby DVR is the only one with a traditional Grid Guide and currently allows for live TV on most clients. (I have tested Android, Xbox, FireTV). Truthfully I prefer Plex overall but it does not support Live TV at this time and Recording can only be scheduled via a browser. Emby is much more mature.

So the Silicondust DVR is not good but it supports DVRs form Emby and Plex that are decent and improving.

Also: The recording are stored in a format that is easily scan-able with Plex, Emby, Kodi and SageTV. I personally used MCEbuddy to run comskip and other post processing steps like converting everything to mp4. (I do this for SageTV recordings as well)

Note: None of these solutions record anything other than OTA right now. HD-PVR like solutions are not supported.

Lastly: Once the DirecTV Now service has built in DVR I can see myself using it and PLex or Emby with the HDHR DVR functionality to replace SageTV. But they are not mature enough yet.
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  #45  
Old 01-26-2017, 11:26 AM
nyplayer nyplayer is offline
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The main thing that has caused me not to use SageTV anymore as my main DVR is the way it uses padding ... it cannot keep padding before and after using only 1 tuner.. If you want to keep padding on back to back recordings same channel you have to use 2 tuners. The HDHRDVR handles this quite nicely. I really do not care about having a grid guide ... as I usually know what I want to record... and watch.

SageTV does not use tuners efficiently.
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  #46  
Old 01-26-2017, 11:29 AM
Taddeusz Taddeusz is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nyplayer View Post
The main thing that has caused me not to use SageTV anymore as my main DVR is the way it uses padding ... it cannot keep padding before and after using only 1 tuner.. If you want to keep padding on back to back recordings same channel you have to use 2 tuners. The HDHRDVR handles this quite nicely.

SageTV does not use tuners efficiently.
I have to agree with that but in a different way. Granted, I'm not on QAM any more but SageTV is incapable of recording different streams from the same channel simultaneously using a single tuner. Other DVR software can do this.
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  #47  
Old 01-26-2017, 11:34 AM
nyplayer nyplayer is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Taddeusz View Post
I have to agree with that but in a different way. Granted, I'm not on QAM any more but SageTV is incapable of recording different streams from the same channel simultaneously using a single tuner. Other DVR software can do this.
NEXTPVR handles that great you can record for ex OTA 2.1, 2.2, 2.3 all three channels using 1 tuner.

BTW.

Love the Shield Update with Live Channels PIP I can watch TV and play Legend of Zelda
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Last edited by nyplayer; 01-26-2017 at 11:37 AM.
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  #48  
Old 01-26-2017, 11:43 AM
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Originally Posted by SWKerr View Post
Note: None of these solutions record anything other than OTA right now. HD-PVR like solutions are not supported.
Actually that not true Emby dose support all the HD-PVR model just not directly supported you have to use a 3rd party app on top Emby namely NextPVR and but your still limited to Windows OS.

Last edited by SHS; 01-26-2017 at 12:20 PM.
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  #49  
Old 01-26-2017, 12:11 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nyplayer View Post
The main thing that has caused me not to use SageTV anymore as my main DVR is the way it uses padding ... it cannot keep padding before and after using only 1 tuner.. If you want to keep padding on back to back recordings same channel you have to use 2 tuners. The HDHRDVR handles this quite nicely. I really do not care about having a grid guide ... as I usually know what I want to record... and watch.

SageTV does not use tuners efficiently.
That true but that because the software is able to use the spitter filter on the steam that allow for this.
SageTV should be able to do this as well but some one has rewrite the tuner and capture part not keep on making a monkey out of it by add on other add on, on top of it which is all ready a big mess.
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  #50  
Old 01-26-2017, 01:28 PM
jm9843 jm9843 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SWKerr View Post
The Silicondust DVR infrastructure seems to have allowed for the Emby and Plex DVR.
All very good points but I think that this part is a bit confused. The Silicondust DVR is distinct and separate from Plex DVR. While it's true that Plex DVR supports/utilizes Silicondust tuners, it does not require Silicondust DVR service to be running. To my knowledge, Silicondust hasn't made their DVR extensible. Although that's not to stop you from pointing Plex/Emby at the Plex DVR recordings directory for "copy-freely" playback via their clients.

Another point about Silicondust's DVR is that they store your lineups, recording schedules, etc in the cloud. So if your subscription lapses, they have an outage, or your internet connection is interrupted it'll be less than ideal.

Quote:
Originally Posted by SHS View Post
SageTV should be able to do this as well but some one has rewrite the tuner and capture part not keep on making a monkey out of it by add on other add on, on top of it which is all ready a big mess.
We look forward to your pull request!
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  #51  
Old 01-26-2017, 01:48 PM
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EnterNoEscape EnterNoEscape is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SHS View Post
That true but that because the software is able to use the spitter filter on the steam that allow for this.
SageTV should be able to do this as well but some one has rewrite the tuner and capture part not keep on making a monkey out of it by add on other add on, on top of it which is all ready a big mess.
What I think would be the most efficient way to deal with this since SageTV is cross-platform would be to run all recordings through the media server. From there, it will be able to split the stream however many times it needs to be split regardless of the source. I've been putting a lot of thought into this over the past year, have written some code and plan on doing something about it eventually. Splitting the streams up is fairly trivial since we can just tell the encoder to SWITCH and give it a new virtual file name. When it connects with the new virtual filename, we use that as a start/stop for a new/old split stream(s).

The trickier part I think is client playback of live TV when it's a show that's being split in all directions. Do we just split off a new stream when the channel is tuned in and playback that? The problem with that would be you wouldn't be able to seek back within content that was already recorded. Do we playback the longest lived still recording stream for that channel and switch to a new split off stream when the show changes? I'm going to start playing with this again at some point, so hopefully I'll have better answers by then.

I know there's a lot more to this and this approach would not work with network encoders that do not support use of the media server, but I have ideas on how to handle that situation too since we always know what version of the protocol they are using which also tells us what they should be able to do. To that point, we can also add commands to the protocol to get what exactly they plan on doing if we use them.

This can all be done without changing anything significant about how the native capture devices work and supports the idea that has been put out there that the native capture devices should be separated into their own JVM or fully native service so that the primary JVM can be run in 64-bit on Windows. Moving those native bits out of any JVM altogether might also make it a lot easier for someone to actually support that side of things since debugging becomes a lot easier. This is obviously way off topic and a much bigger discussion.
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  #52  
Old 01-26-2017, 03:01 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by EnterNoEscape View Post
What I think would be the most efficient way to deal with this since SageTV is cross-platform would be to run all recordings through the media server. From there, it will be able to split the stream however many times it needs to be split regardless of the source. I've been putting a lot of thought into this over the past year, have written some code and plan on doing something about it eventually. Splitting the streams up is fairly trivial since we can just tell the encoder to SWITCH and give it a new virtual file name. When it connects with the new virtual filename, we use that as a start/stop for a new/old split stream(s).

The trickier part I think is client playback of live TV when it's a show that's being split in all directions. Do we just split off a new stream when the channel is tuned in and playback that? The problem with that would be you wouldn't be able to seek back within content that was already recorded. Do we playback the longest lived still recording stream for that channel and switch to a new split off stream when the show changes? I'm going to start playing with this again at some point, so hopefully I'll have better answers by then.

I know there's a lot more to this and this approach would not work with network encoders that do not support use of the media server, but I have ideas on how to handle that situation too since we always know what version of the protocol they are using which also tells us what they should be able to do. To that point, we can also add commands to the protocol to get what exactly they plan on doing if we use them.

This can all be done without changing anything significant about how the native capture devices work and supports the idea that has been put out there that the native capture devices should be separated into their own JVM or fully native service so that the primary JVM can be run in 64-bit on Windows. Moving those native bits out of any JVM altogether might also make it a lot easier for someone to actually support that side of things since debugging becomes a lot easier. This is obviously way off topic and a much bigger discussion.
As for seek back even Dish Hopper 3 can only go so far back when switching from one steam to another steam base back padding on same channel in which it is recording.

Last edited by SHS; 01-26-2017 at 03:18 PM.
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  #53  
Old 01-27-2017, 02:40 AM
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It'd be very simple to handle writing the streams to more than one file in the network encoder end, but it would require having more 'virtual' tuners presented to sage than there are physically. Stephane's older DVB plugin did this I believe. The issue is that sage's scheduler is not aware of this, so there's no way for it to account for the actual physical tuner count when doing its scheduling. This would take major overhauls in the most complicated part of sagetv (and really, its the part that separates sage from just about all other DVR's out there), ultimately for very negligible returns (I honestly don't think I have used padding on anything in years - and adding more tuners is trivial).
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  #54  
Old 01-27-2017, 05:27 AM
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EnterNoEscape EnterNoEscape is offline
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Originally Posted by Fuzzy View Post
It'd be very simple to handle writing the streams to more than one file in the network encoder end, but it would require having more 'virtual' tuners presented to sage than there are physically. Stephane's older DVB plugin did this I believe. The issue is that sage's scheduler is not aware of this, so there's no way for it to account for the actual physical tuner count when doing its scheduling. This would take major overhauls in the most complicated part of sagetv (and really, its the part that separates sage from just about all other DVR's out there), ultimately for very negligible returns (I honestly don't think I have used padding on anything in years - and adding more tuners is trivial).
This can be done without creating virtual tuners and I don't think this would be as big of an overhaul of scheduler as you're thinking. Also it's very simple to get the current native capture devices to use the media server even though they are running in the same JVM. I use padding for all kinds of things; especially for when a sports program offsets my show frequently or shows that tend to run over their timeslot and the padding sometimes creates conflicts even with 12 tuners.
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  #55  
Old 01-27-2017, 06:31 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fuzzy View Post
It'd be very simple to handle writing the streams to more than one file in the network encoder end, but it would require having more 'virtual' tuners presented to sage than there are physically. Stephane's older DVB plugin did this I believe. The issue is that sage's scheduler is not aware of this, so there's no way for it to account for the actual physical tuner count when doing its scheduling. This would take major overhauls in the most complicated part of sagetv (and really, its the part that separates sage from just about all other DVR's out there), ultimately for very negligible returns (I honestly don't think I have used padding on anything in years - and adding more tuners is trivial).
Fuzzy I think you're way off base when you say this would give negligible benefits for most users. I think you are a very unique case if you don't need to use padding on your shows.

I default to 5 minutes of padding before and after all recordings, and every once in a while I still get something cut off (though 1 minute of padding would probably be enough for most shows).

Anything that's on CBS or Fox on Sunday nights I add 45 minutes of padding due to football being on earlier in the day on those channels.
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  #56  
Old 01-27-2017, 07:05 AM
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Fuzzy I think you're way off base when you say this would give negligible benefits for most users. I think you are a very unique case if you don't need to use padding on your shows.

I default to 5 minutes of padding before and after all recordings, and every once in a while I still get something cut off (though 1 minute of padding would probably be enough for most shows).

Anything that's on CBS or Fox on Sunday nights I add 45 minutes of padding due to football being on earlier in the day on those channels.
I agree and I also disagree that adding tuners is trivial .... took me weeks to get Comcast to activate my cable card and many escalations and phone calls.... I have 2 Primes and I do not want to go through the process of adding more when there is software that handles padding efficiently.... one of the reasons I switched my main DVR to HDHR.... even though a few in my household still use SageTV.
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  #57  
Old 01-27-2017, 07:12 AM
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Originally Posted by EnterNoEscape View Post
This can be done without creating virtual tuners and I don't think this would be as big of an overhaul of scheduler as you're thinking. Also it's very simple to get the current native capture devices to use the media server even though they are running in the same JVM. I use padding for all kinds of things; especially for when a sports program offsets my show frequently or shows that tend to run over their timeslot and the padding sometimes creates conflicts even with 12 tuners.
The back-to-back padding thing I agree would not be a huge scheduler overhaul - I was referring more to the multi-subchannel recording with that concern - since sage in most cases would have absolutely no idea what can be grouped, and with cablecards and sdv, it's not even possible. OTA could be possible, but I honestly don't think I've ever recorded anything on an OTA subchannel, and would have a hard time envisioning channels that are mostly reruns from decades ago being big conflict problems.
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  #58  
Old 01-27-2017, 07:20 AM
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I have been with the HDHRDVR since the kickstarter and the first and most requested feature was back-to-back padding.... then DRM of course.
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  #59  
Old 01-27-2017, 08:04 AM
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EnterNoEscape EnterNoEscape is offline
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Originally Posted by Fuzzy View Post
The back-to-back padding thing I agree would not be a huge scheduler overhaul - I was referring more to the multi-subchannel recording with that concern - since sage in most cases would have absolutely no idea what can be grouped, and with cablecards and sdv, it's not even possible. OTA could be possible, but I honestly don't think I've ever recorded anything on an OTA subchannel, and would have a hard time envisioning channels that are mostly reruns from decades ago being big conflict problems.
I had a feeling we might not have been talking about the same things. I think the sub-channel thing has little benefit for many users and would be a big headache to get the scheduler to do efficiently. For OTA and DVB, it can literally just look at the frequency channel to see what else should be accessible at the same time. But, as stated before I think this has little benefit because how often has a show you wanted to watch on OTA been on the same frequency as another show you wanted to watch.

There's also the problem of getting the capture device to change it's filtering dynamically so that if a recording was already in progress and you start something live on a sub-channel for example, you aren't disrupting the in progress recording briefly. You could argue that we shouldn't use the hardware filtering then. That would generate so much noise for network devices that you would then be complaining about packets being dropped. I've tested this. It's insane how much traffic you get with everything wide open.

All of the capture device interaction would need to be overhauled. The native capture devices would need to be reworked. We would need to be able to tell a network encoder to start another stream without it thinking that it needs to stop the previous one and a way to tell the network encoder which stream to stop on the same capture device. This feels like a year long project.

This has a much higher likelihood of happening on cable, but then we have the problem of SDV and always moving virtual channels. My lineup is extremely stable, but I've seen some of the forum members have all kinds of problems with their cable company constantly fiddling. Maybe DVB is the only area where this makes a lot of sense, but I can definitely say this is hard to visualize working given how SageTV does scheduling. And more importantly being able to do these things efficiently since the scheduler runs a lot.

I know this is something people want and they have seen it in other projects. I know that everything keeps being told that this is a big undertaking. There are good reasons for those answers. If we re-wrote most of the scheduler for SageTV, I'm sure we could end up with something flexible enough that adding something like this would be trivial. This is not an impossible request. The problem is that is just one part of the puzzle and given the current lack of interest in working on the native capture devices, it's not going to happen.
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Last edited by EnterNoEscape; 01-27-2017 at 08:06 AM.
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  #60  
Old 01-27-2017, 11:16 AM
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Originally Posted by Fuzzy View Post
The back-to-back padding thing I agree would not be a huge scheduler overhaul - I was referring more to the multi-subchannel recording with that concern - since sage in most cases would have absolutely no idea what can be grouped, and with cablecards and sdv, it's not even possible. OTA could be possible, but I honestly don't think I've ever recorded anything on an OTA subchannel, and would have a hard time envisioning channels that are mostly reruns from decades ago being big conflict problems.
I*take that you ref to record the main*channel along with all sub channel ?, Kind of like how Dish dose it which know as PTAT = PrimeTime AnyTime is that what you are ref to Fuzzy ?.

What I like to see is SageTV get an major overhauled with it native capture devices reworked so that all newer Mulit Tuner*like dualHD and quadHD Tuner as well*as the newer HD-PVR even take parts of EnterNoEscape OpenDCT add it in for network tuner.
Pleases for love of god fix channel*scanning as it*is painful slow and not*very accurate.
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