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  #1  
Old 10-14-2010, 05:09 PM
Sparhawk6 Sparhawk6 is offline
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Thumbs down New FCC Order on CableCards re SageTV

http://www.fcc.gov/Daily_Releases/Da...C-10-181A1.pdf

Page 19, paragraph 35:

Quote:
Comments regarding CableCARD device certification indicate that the proposed rule would simply codify the CableCARD certification process as it exists today. No commenter opposes the proposed rule, although certain commenters argue that the proposed rule would not do enough to protect device manufacturers. In addition, certain commenters argue that the proposed device certification rule is not rigorous enough to assure a competitive device market. Specifically, CEA and Public Knowledge each encourage the Commission to extend the device certification rule to apply to CableCARD-compatible computers and computer peripheral devices and to limit the terms that CableLabs may dictate in licensing agreements. They assert that these steps will allow start-up companies like SageTV to develop their devices, and that the proposed rule will not be effective without this extension. Indeed, NCTA and MPAA acknowledge that the Commission’s proposed rule would have no effect on the SageTV certification problems that the Commission highlighted in the FNPRM.
The FCC adopted the proposed rule only. It doesn't look like this order did anything to help Sage get certified. Please, someone tell me otherwise. hopes and dreams, dashed.
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Last edited by Sparhawk6; 10-14-2010 at 05:30 PM.
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  #2  
Old 10-14-2010, 05:33 PM
Brent Brent is offline
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Well.... from what I've read and heard from todays FCC meeting the changes are good in general, but not specifically what I think SageTV had asked for. But I wouldn't give up hope entirely at this point. We'll have to wait and see how these things work out over the next few months imo.
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  #3  
Old 10-14-2010, 05:49 PM
autoboy autoboy is offline
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I think they can still get certified, but it is up to Cable Labs to certify them. Personally, I think its a dumb move for them to not certify more Cable Card devices, since I see it as a competitive advantage over Satellite TV. The more people they can get to use Cable Cards, the more people who will use cable.
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  #4  
Old 10-14-2010, 07:06 PM
reggie14 reggie14 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Brent View Post
Well.... from what I've read and heard from todays FCC meeting the changes are good in general, but not specifically what I think SageTV had asked for. But I wouldn't give up hope entirely at this point. We'll have to wait and see how these things work out over the next few months imo.
As I said on your blog, I didn't see any changes that will have a meaningful impact. What change(s) were you happy to see? The new self-install rule for cablecard devices is probably a good change, but not likely to have much of an impact in practice, particularly for us. The interface requirements seem meaningless. I really don't understand why you'd bother to standardize on a network-layer protocol without regard for the other layers. It seems like the FCC is really going to have to force interoperability on the cable companies, as they don't have much of an incentive to seek interoperable solutions themselves.

And the FCC also seemed to confirm its support for DRM multiple times. So, even if AllVid does happen, I don't think its going to help Sage users very much.
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Old 10-14-2010, 07:20 PM
PLUCKYHD PLUCKYHD is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by autoboy View Post
I think they can still get certified, but it is up to Cable Labs to certify them. Personally, I think its a dumb move for them to not certify more Cable Card devices, since I see it as a competitive advantage over Satellite TV. The more people they can get to use Cable Cards, the more people who will use cable.
they don't see it that way allot of cable people won't use satellite and they know it. Cable companies lose to much money with cable card that is why it is the way it is. They make allot of money of leases/renting boxes they don't want to lose that and cable card digs into that profit to much. Has nothing to do with satellite
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  #6  
Old 10-14-2010, 08:49 PM
Oats Oats is offline
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Originally Posted by PLUCKYHD View Post
They make allot of money of leases/renting boxes they don't want to lose that and cable card digs into that profit to much. Has nothing to do with satellite
Thats what I thought, but Time Warner cuts $20 off my bill if I rent a cable box for $10.
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  #7  
Old 10-14-2010, 10:06 PM
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sleonard sleonard is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Oats View Post
Thats what I thought, but Time Warner cuts $20 off my bill if I rent a cable box for $10.
That's because they overcharge you $30 to start so they're still $10 ahead

S
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  #8  
Old 10-15-2010, 04:54 AM
PLUCKYHD PLUCKYHD is offline
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Originally Posted by sleonard View Post
That's because they overcharge you $30 to start so they're still $10 ahead

S
The truth they overcharge and get back close to satellite profit with their bundled discounts. So if you ever do cancel one service the pricing goes up so high it doesn't really effect their bottom dollar. With high speed Internet and instant wifi spots on cell phones these days when 4g becomes standard you will start to see the need for home Internet diminish IMHO. Cable companies need to wake up and stop being greedy gobblers or pretty soon they are going to have no customers left (awe my dream ).
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  #9  
Old 10-15-2010, 07:39 AM
Brent Brent is offline
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Originally Posted by reggie14 View Post
What change(s) were you happy to see? The new self-install rule for cablecard devices is probably a good change
self install is a positive move as is the continued acknowledgment that CC has mostly failed (hence the focus on moving to a new solution eventually). The move to ease the certification process is good if for no other reason it might encourage more CE manufacturers to make CC devices... then again who knows.

The other items could be good if they actually enforced it... For us - SageTV users, it doesn't do a lot unless SageTV gets CC into SageTV.

Quote:
And the FCC also seemed to confirm its support for DRM multiple times. So, even if AllVid does happen, I don't think its going to help Sage users very much.
I don't honestly care about that one. DRM will be there no matter what and I understand that. I think SageTV could handle the DRM if they went to the trouble (and money) of getting CC support. They already have PlayReady so the DRM probably isn't the stumbler.

DISCLAIMER: Below is completely my opinion & speculation
I personally don't think CC will happen with SageTV. It could, but I don't see it happening because the FCC is pretty open about CC's life being on life support. But the moves they make with CC today could indicate the direction for next year as they begin outlining the CC replacement which everyone is calling AllVid (generic name "gateway device").

For now I'm happy with my HD-PVR/Cable Box solution paired with two HDHR's. I do however want SageTV to have a FCC-approved, device that accesses all U.S. cable channels DRMd and not. Because eventually that in my opinion will be the defacto standard over the next 10 years. Online streaming of TV/Movie/Music is very important, but it won't replace Cable in the next ten years at least.
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  #10  
Old 10-15-2010, 08:33 AM
rgreenpc rgreenpc is offline
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I really want to see CableCard support in Sage so I can dump MC.
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  #11  
Old 10-15-2010, 08:50 AM
reggie14 reggie14 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Brent View Post
The move to ease the certification process is good if for no other reason it might encourage more CE manufacturers to make CC devices... then again who knows.
I didn't see any real change in the certification process. Even the FCC said "we believe that these rule changes do little more than codify the certification process as it exists today."

Quote:
Originally Posted by Brent View Post
The other items could be good if they actually enforced it... For us - SageTV users, it doesn't do a lot unless SageTV gets CC into SageTV.
As far as I could tell, the other items were pretty minor, unless the problems they're directed at are more widespread than I thought. There's no substantive change for SDV. Tuning adapters already seem fairly widespread in places that have gone to SDV. The problem doesn't seem to be availability as much as efficacy. The requirement to deploy M-cards is probably vaguely good, but it doesn't sound like that's really going to change anything from what would have happened otherwise.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Brent View Post
I don't honestly care about that one. DRM will be there no matter what and I understand that. I think SageTV could handle the DRM if they went to the trouble (and money) of getting CC support. They already have PlayReady so the DRM probably isn't the stumbler.
Perhaps. I really don't know all the things that would need to happen to deploy support for a DRMed technology in Sage. I know Sage is on Microsoft's Playready page, but I'd be a little surprised if they've paid all the necessary licensing fees to really use it in a product. It sounds like there are some pretty significant licensing fees for using CableCards in products, which would likely be the case with AllVid too. There will certainly be certification costs to go along with either AllVid or CableCard support, and I've never seen a certification program that includes any sort of security testing that isn't pretty expensive (well, except payment card systems, but that's not quite certification testing). I just have a hard time seeing a company like Sage go through that. Admittedly, I would have said the same thing about Ceton, but it seems like they may have had some backing from Microsoft to help them along.

Maybe Sage will surprise me. I was a little surprised when Sage came out with their own HD extender rather than partnering with someone else. That move seemed to work out well for them.

I just don't have much hope that this is going to play out in a way that's beneficial for consumers and technologists. I think the FCC really dropped the ball with the IEEE1394 mandate, the separable security mandate, and yesterday's meaningless change to the IEEE1394 mandate. While theoretically the FCC is pretty powerful, in a practical sense they can only get away with things that won't cause a big backlash from the telecom and entertainment industries. Basically, this is a problem with interoperability. And I don't think the FCC has the inclination, or the power, to force an interoperable solution on this industry. And I don't think there's much of an incentive for the industry to come up with an interoperable solution themselves.
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  #12  
Old 10-15-2010, 11:43 AM
babgvant babgvant is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Brent View Post
I personally don't think CC will happen with SageTV. It could, but I don't see it happening because the FCC is pretty open about CC's life being on life support. But the moves they make with CC today could indicate the direction for next year as they begin outlining the CC replacement which everyone is calling AllVid (generic name "gateway device").
I think it's important to remember the pace of change in the cable industry. Sure CC is on "life support", but there's no clear replacement - we could easily see CC hold on for five or ten years.
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  #13  
Old 10-15-2010, 12:06 PM
Brent Brent is offline
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Originally Posted by babgvant View Post
I think it's important to remember the pace of change in the cable industry. Sure CC is on "life support", but there's no clear replacement - we could easily see CC hold on for five or ten years.
certainly possible. But would you spend a large sum of money & development to get CC when you knew something different was coming - even in the next 10 years? I'll defer to the guys at SageTV on this one - only they know. But I stand by my "guess."
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  #14  
Old 10-15-2010, 12:20 PM
babgvant babgvant is offline
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Originally Posted by Brent View Post
certainly possible. But would you spend a large sum of money & development to get CC when you knew something different was coming - even in the next 10 years? I'll defer to the guys at SageTV on this one - only they know. But I stand by my "guess."
There's always something else coming; ten years a long time to get decent ROI. I'd also guess that some of the components required to make CC work in Sage would be reusable for other features.
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  #15  
Old 10-15-2010, 01:26 PM
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stanger89 stanger89 is offline
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If I were guessing, I'd guess it will come down to if Sage can implement CableCard support without an actual CableLabs certification. If a full cert is needed, like Brent, I think that's a bit too much of an ask for a company as small as Sage.

Now I think there's some reason for hope that Sage won't need a Cable Labs cert, I say this because the CC tuners (Ceton, etc) are already certified, further PC-based DRM is already certified (PlayReady), so I think it's possible that it would be enough that Sage could just implement PlayReady, tuner control, and that would be enough to work with a CC tuner, since the CC tuner does the DRM wrapping itself, and the app just has to control it, and play the protected content.

The wild card is if you can handshake with a CC tuner with just a PlayReady license or if you need some secret key directly from CableLabs.
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Old 10-15-2010, 02:41 PM
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too bad you can't just plug in the ceton thingy, plug in your cable card thingy, run the cable card equivalent of AnyDVD (AnyCC?) and be done with it... make life so much easier for everyone...

I personally don't want sage dealing with any sort of DRM...
DRM just does nothing for me really... it doesn't help me enjoy my media in any fashion... just seems to get in the way really... seems kind like DRM is or has a major design flaw...
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  #17  
Old 10-16-2010, 12:27 AM
Sparhawk6 Sparhawk6 is offline
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Frankly, I'm a little tired of all the fretting over DRM. I just want to watch my friggin' shows on my Hd200. I don't care what's baked into it, I just want to watch the damn shows!! Honestly! SageTV makes a DVR product. If that product doesn't allow me to DVR my shows, then Sage needs to stop stringing us along and drop the DVR functionality of the program. And I honestly feel that the HD-PVR is not a solution - it's half-baked hack. I mean seriously, an IR Blaster? I won't buy that junk.
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  #18  
Old 10-16-2010, 04:40 AM
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Today, are there more people watching HD content on CableCards or watching HD on Xbox360/PS3 ?
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Old 10-16-2010, 05:25 AM
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Originally Posted by Sparhawk6 View Post
Frankly, I'm a little tired of all the fretting over DRM. I just want to watch my friggin' shows on my Hd200. I don't care what's baked into it, I just want to watch the damn shows!!
I'd prefer my recordings not to have DRM, but if my option is to have a capture with DRM or nothing, I'd choose DRM. As long as I could stream it from my server to extender I'd be happy. I wouldn't be happy if everything was DRM, but if Sage could implement it only on capture devices and recordings that require it I'd be fine with it. IMO that should satisfy those who are anti-drm because they could continue to use only capture devices that don't require it.
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Old 10-16-2010, 07:24 AM
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Not having DRM is one of the main reasons i picked SAGE.
It is also for that reason that i never expect to use a cablecard -- i can't imagine that sage could get away with using a cablecard and not DRMing the output.

If this resulted in *all* of sage getting DRM, including OTA and HDPVR stuff, i'd be really annoyed.

If people want cablecard, and the only way to get cablecard is to drm the output, and the only thing that gets drm is cablecard, then I've got no problem with that.

It isn't even like i'm doing much with the videos I have, i watch 99.9% of them on my HD200 (And the remaining % on my ipod, so in theory, DRM wouldn't really affect my watching habits).

I'm just fundamentally opposed to media providers treating me like a criminal, and I'll make every effort to support non-drm systems and eschew DRM.
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