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  #1  
Old 02-15-2009, 11:17 AM
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devinteske devinteske is offline
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Lightbulb SageTV on PS3 via BD-J, possible?

I've been doing some research on the BluRay BD-ROM architecture and discovered that BD-R/E discs have the BD-J specification which allows the execution of custom Java code via a BluRay disc.

Does anybody else think that it might be possible to get SageTV Client (a Java app) to run on the PS3 via the BD-J spec?

I think that this would be an amazing expansion of SageTV, to be able to load a BluRay disc (BD-R/E) into my PS3 and be able to connect to my SageTV server (running on another PC connected via LAN) to watch all my media.

I believe that this could work as long as the following are true:

a. The Sony PS3 provides a full and complete Java runtime environment to BD-J native code or at least a mechanism for providing your own JRE.

b. PS3 allows BD-J code to access system resources to create either a temporary swap space or RAM disk for buffering media content.

c. BD-J runtime environment handles all the normal system calls inherent to desktop use (for example, what will happen when SageTV under BD-J requests to create a new window? maximize or minimize? or handle window movement when there may be no toolkit API for such things (since the PS3 is not really a Desktop environment let-alone that there are no such things as windows when running under the BD-J environment).

d. What will navigation be like without a mouse? Can we integrate with the PS3 Bluetooth-based remote? Can we integrate other USB remote re/transcievers?

I for one believe that if Frey Technologies created a BD-R ISO that allowed you to turn your PS3 into a media extender simply by inserting a disc and loading it up like a game... a great many would pay upwards of $80 to gain such functionality. Sure, it may bite into sales of the HD200 a little (since you could get full 1080p output) but not everybody would go this route since the PS3 would need to have the disc in to use Sage (whereas the HD200 is a dedicated extender).

Of course, the next step would be to see if we could get Sage to install a local copy to the hard disk in the PS3 so you could run it whenever you like without the disc.

Cool idea, no?

Here's a link to a discussion about BD-J that I found that seems interesting. Hopefully Sony opens up BD-J for desktop development without licensing fees (like that would stop us... we could just reverse engineer the whole thing... BUT, one thing I can't do is de-compile SageTV for modification if it won't work out-of-the-box on a straight migration effort... APIs will likely need to be changed for the BD-J environment).

http://www.blueboard.com/bluray/article_blu.htm

Edit:

According to additional research:

Quote:
Authenticated applications can use a (signed) permission request file to acquire permissions that go beyond the BD-J sandbox. Permissions can be acquired for:
Reading and writing to local and system storage
Using the network connection (to connect to defined servers)
Access of the file system on the BD-ROM disc
Title selection of other titles on the BD-ROM disc
Control of other running BD-J applications
So it looks like all our concerns can be met. SageTV will have to be a signed app to gain access to local storage and network services (like connecting to a SageTV Server on the network). The only thing that looks daunting is that a special UI framework is used (Havi6). I wonder if Sage's own UI could just by-pass this or if it will have to be re-written to use Havi

Edit 2:

As per other frameworks that Sage might use, I found on Wikipedia:

Quote:
In addition to the standard BD-J APIs, developers may make use of existing Java libraries and application frameworks, assuming they do not use features outside the constraints of the BD-J platform, include that Java ME only supports Java version 1.3 class files.
That's reassuring to know that Sage can rely on standard libraries, but will likely have to be modified to support accessing of PS3 resources (like Local drive access for media buffers), signing of the app to allow BD Live features (network access), and remove some features that may violate the Jave ME environment rules.

Last edited by devinteske; 02-15-2009 at 12:49 PM.
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Old 02-15-2009, 07:32 PM
paulbeers paulbeers is offline
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It's entirely possible, infact the first HD "extender" that Sage ever showed off was a blu-Ray player running the Sage interface. This was done at CES about 2-3 years ago (if I remember correctly); however, Sage did not end up going down this path for its extenders (unknown as to why). My point is that Blu-Ray players running Sage is very possible.
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Old 02-15-2009, 08:55 PM
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stanger89 stanger89 is offline
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Actually they showed that at last year's CES (Sage something running on a Pioneer BD player, streaming video from a Dish STB), which was after the MVP and HD100 were released.

Frankly though I doubt it was running as a BD-J app.
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Old 02-16-2009, 07:38 AM
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I think that BD-J could easily provide a SageTV client or placeshifter. According to the Blu-Ray page on wikipedia, it's subset of MHP, which is already used in set top boxes.

If you have a blu ray burner, check out the HD Cookbuok project, it's contains all you need to get started.

You used to be able to run bd-j apps on you PS3 using a thumbdrive, but sony closed that hole... I guess they didn't want to flood the market with bd-j developers... but before the hole was closed, some people did write some stuff. Most notable was the PS3 Filer with NES emulation... So you could play your NES roms on the ps3....

I don't have a bluray recorder, but i do have a ps3. For a while I was toying with trying to write up something... but without a recorder, it's not worth learning it... So instead, I installed, ps3 media server, which is basically a upnp server. You'll want a direct network connection and a fairly beefy server to run the ps3 media server, since it will be doing transcoding on the fly for most files, especially mkv files.

I think the main reason why sage doesn't do something like build a ps3 placeshifter client boils down to $$... I'm not sure how many sage users there are... but the the overlapp of ps3 users that are also sage users, is probably pretty small.

What would be interesting, and this is off tangent from the OP, so my apologies.... would be if Sage did a working prototype of a ps3 placeshifter... then they could open-source (gpl) it and open their placeshifter network streaming protocol. This way, people could still write native clients (ps3, xbox, applettv, iphone, etc), but you'd still need a client/placeshifter license for those clients to function. I doubt they'd do it... but it would be interesting.... Today, people like myself, run upnp servers with ps3 and xbox clients, but sage doesn't get a license cut from those clients.... if the the network streaming protocol was opened, then at least there is the potential to get license revenues from other native clients, without having to invest money into writing and maintaining the 3rd party clients.
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Old 02-16-2009, 08:20 PM
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devinteske devinteske is offline
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Thumbs up BD-J Possible?

I already downloaded a few BD-J resources already and am simply deciding whether to buy the burner first or an SD200 lol

If I buy the burner and get the PS3 working as a client/shifter then I won't need to buy the HD200 since I assume that a PS3/Sage combo would be able to play about any format up to and including 1080p MKV.

I'm thinking about starting off with a BD-RE (rewritable) so that I don't waste discs (and money).

I think that it all should go smoothly except for this one hitch in my gallop. I believe that I'm going to hit a brick wall at program instantiation.

Of course, I can copy the necessary files over to a BD and satiate the [assumedly] numerous library needs. However, what happens if/when Jave ME shuts down the app for making an illegal request? In addition, if the apps are not digitally signed, then they will be unable to request disk access or, more importantly, network access (BD Live). Those features are reserved for trusted applications. Either of these problems would likely require access to the source code to make the necessary changes.

Unfortunately, it looks like the PS3 provides a custom toolkit for requesting and managing resources such as BD Live and local disk access. We won't know until we crack open the PS3 BD-J ISO that I found yesterday which demos how to get this stuff working. If it's a custom API then we MAY need the Sage source to plug in the necessary calls.

On the other hand, something which I don't have much experience with, it may be possible to modify the built-in behaviour of Sage via STVi or other plugin mechanism. I'll need independent validation of such a claim but my initial thought is to say that it should be possible with some (arduous?) work.
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Old 02-16-2009, 08:37 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by devinteske View Post
I already downloaded a few BD-J resources already and am simply deciding whether to buy the burner first or an SD200 lol

If I buy the burner and get the PS3 working as a client/shifter then I won't need to buy the HD200 since I assume that a PS3/Sage combo would be able to play about any format up to and including 1080p MKV.
The big issue with doing a "roll your own" Placeshifter BD-J thing, is that Placeshifter doesn't know anything about the "hardware" Blu-ray audio/video decoding interfaces. That means it would have to do everything in software, which may or may-not be possible.

But beyond that it's even more problematic. BD-J is (as noted) a quite limited in it's capabilities, most likely far more limited than the code for Placeshifter uses. And then there's the question of rendering Audio/Video, which is probably very different in a BD-J VM vs a PC, especially considering the security requirements for accessing hardware directly.

Placeshifter uses an (AFAIK) x86 build of Mplayer to decode/render video, you'd also need a PS3/BD-J version of that for a PS3 "build".
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