ExtremeTech PVR Article - Page 2

dagar · #21 10-11-2005, 08:04 PM

You can always choose to a.) disable the update client activity and b.) not upgrade it. Sage doesn't/hasn't yet required it.

It's about the only Java app that isn't a PITA.

The only UI issues that they draw out that I have some level of concurrance with is the 'music player' non-PVR 'stuff.

jominor · #22 10-11-2005, 08:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by flashbacck

I don't like that Sage requires Java JRE either. Java updates have an annoying habit of breaking things that used to work. It's another factor that users have to take into account during troubleshooting, and it shouldn't be.

The JRE update is no different that any other required library. You may as well not like a DLL on the OS. I write Java applications and I applaud Jeff's choice. He has rich, capable systems that is used my enterprise level companies on a daily basis. A better choice could not be made.

jominor · #23 10-11-2005, 08:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dagar

You can always choose to a.) disable the update client activity and b.) not upgrade it. Sage doesn't/hasn't yet required it.

It's about the only Java app that isn't a PITA.

The only UI issues that they draw out that I have some level of concurrance with is the 'music player' non-PVR 'stuff.

I respectfully disagree. I write java applications because they are so problem free. This may be beyond the scope here, but when you need to move an large application from a Windows Tomcat box to a Unix Oracle9iAS box, there is not better choice than Java.

RedR · #24 10-11-2005, 09:52 PM

Just to toss in my 2c here.. From moment one I've found Sage UI to be very organized, easy to follow and more often then not easy to get from one selection to another. Another thing is the abilities the STV's give me and the option to add my own links or menu. I too do not like navigation sounds, nor bloated fonts or menus. So far 3.0 beta has been a nice clean adjustment to the UI and am still quite happy.

Enjoy,
RedR

Enormous · #25 10-11-2005, 10:14 PM

I too will let my voice be heard: I've been extremely happy with SageTV since the moment I bought it. Have I had frustrations? Of course. Have they been addressed? Absolutely. Either by SageTV directly, or here in the forums. I have found everything in SageTV that I had wanted when I first started my PVR experience, and it appears that things are still heading in the right direction.

(Just thought I'd address the lack of "All's well" posts!

)

Wheemer · #26 10-11-2005, 10:25 PM

I personally do not mind the look of the Sage UI, but the navigation and menu structure isn't very good with the default STV...

Anybody I know can pickup a remote for any satelite/cable box, pvr or not, and get it to do what they want. Sage on the other hand is not intuative and is very confusing to someone who is not familiar with it.

When I was using BTV, I found the navigation and menu structure much better and easier to use. I really wish Sage used a fixed navigation without a memory of any kind.

But beside a couple UI complaints, I love Sage, and wouldn't even think of going with anything else. The speed at which Sage progresses is also very acceptable... I definately could never say the same for BTV.

ukmgranger · #27 10-12-2005, 01:30 AM

I think that the standard UI for Sage is very dull!
I currently use SageMCE, as this is the most elegant UI for Sage in my opinion. It is however still lacking in the eye candy department for me.

I think that people are missing a key point when they say 'I don't really care about the UI, it's the functionality that I want.' A beautiful UI really does add to the functionality of a program as this is the part that adds that 'quality' feel. Imagine buying a BMW 6 series, jumping in and finding the interior is from a cheep Nissan (or something). You wouldn't 'feel' (which is a key term) that you were in a quality car.

For me, the 'feel' of a piece of software is as important as anything else, and this is created with the UI. SageTV is just a bit too 'form follows function'. Great in WWII, but we are in an age where these things can be made to look and 'feel' wonderful.

For me, Sage needs some major work on the UI. mlbDude has done a brilliant job on the SageMC .stv (it is the only one that I like), but there are clearly limitations to what can be done.

As for setting up out of the box, I think that most PVR software is useless. Unless you are happy with very mediocre results it is just not possible. You can't really expect people to use the built in decoders, as they are invariably rubbish. So that is one thing that you have to work out and install on top.

Also with Sage you have to get the XMLTV thing set-up (if you are virtually anywhere but the US). This is not a simple step for computer novices. This is where MCE plays its ace in that it will just grab your EPG, whatever country you are in. No messing about with xml grabbers.

so what do I want from Sage?
Better, more capable UI:
- CD player
- better music visuals (they are currently truly awful)
- mp3 tagging download support
- DVD tagging download support (SaceMC almost has this, it could be better, but again it is a Sage limitation that prevents this from being great)
- UK EPG (TVTV? If it ever works)
- Nicer UI (transitions, fades)
- better way to access properties (notepad editing is a little stone-age!)
- Working renderless
- working nVidia decoder (especially with renderless)

For me, Sage has a long way to go.

dagar · #28 10-12-2005, 05:47 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jominor

I respectfully disagree. I write java applications because they are so problem free. This may be beyond the scope here, but when you need to move an large application from a Windows Tomcat box to a Unix Oracle9iAS box, there is not better choice than Java.

Understand. My only dealing with Java apps is as an end user. Mostly Applets, wheter part of an entperprise managment framework or a misc. website. That, and Sage

Mahoney · #29 10-12-2005, 05:59 AM

Java has a bad rep amongst end users because 99% of the time they encounter it via Swing. Swing is the GUI front end used for most desktop Java apps, and I believe Applets; it is unresponsive and because it doesn't use the Windows standard widgets it is difficult to work out how to do things. Frankly it's crap, and a major reason why Java did not take off as a desktop language.

However, Swing is only part of Java, and it's not tohe only way to write a Java GUI app - anyone who has used Eclipse will know that you can write a genuinely excellent desktop application in Java using SWT rather than Swing. And once you've got over Swing's shortcomings, Java is a wonderful language to write in; particularly now that Spring is making it so easy.

Apart from anything else, you can port your application to Linux and Apple Mac with very little pain.

lovingHDTV · #30 10-12-2005, 06:15 AM

What I want from Sage is the ability to query it and find out what is happening. This would allow for nice two-way communication between apps like NetRemote, or XLobby. It would make extenders nicer, IMO.

jominor · #31 10-12-2005, 10:21 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mahoney

Java has a bad rep amongst end users because 99% of the time they encounter it via Swing. Swing is the GUI front end used for most desktop Java apps, and I believe Applets; it is unresponsive and because it doesn't use the Windows standard widgets it is difficult to work out how to do things. Frankly it's crap, and a major reason why Java did not take off as a desktop language.

However, Swing is only part of Java, and it's not tohe only way to write a Java GUI app - anyone who has used Eclipse will know that you can write a genuinely excellent desktop application in Java using SWT rather than Swing. And once you've got over Swing's shortcomings, Java is a wonderful language to write in; particularly now that Spring is making it so easy.

Apart from anything else, you can port your application to Linux and Apple Mac with very little pain.

Except for Idea which is Swing, but that is a development tool. I'm going way off here, but Spring is superb.

It is a shame that applets have done such a disservice. The problem is that certain parts of Java were around before the hardware could really support it. That portabiliy costs CPU and memory and now those two components are cheap. I confess to being surprised that Sage was done in Java. IMO, it should be held up as an example of what can be done with Java.

You don't have that many PVR apps, so it is significant that one of the major players is in Java. It shows, I believe, that it can work as a client. The server solutions where I play are tremendous.

dagar · #32 10-12-2005, 10:38 AM

Agree. It always impresses me.

Kanati · #33 10-12-2005, 11:04 AM

Quote:

I thought the Java jre was a foolish complaint especially considering BTV requires the .Net runtime and Sage comes with and automatically installs Java. What's the beef?

I hate java... Always have. I hate swing. I hate their JIT implementation. I hate the virtual machine... It all just makes me shudder. And to think that I'm using a java app as my primary PVR software makes me want to rush to the bathroom...

The .NET runtime is large... But their JIT implementation is so much better. The apps are standard windows apps. Basically .NET is what java COULD have been.

But that's just me.

I'm very vocal about what I dislike about sage (as Opus knows all too well... Pretty sure he hates me and that's ok.

) but I'm less vocal about what I like... So here it is.

- The UI is dull, but it's functional which is something I can't say about some of the other PVR software out there.
- It's more configurable than some others.
- It rarely crashes. I can count on one hand how many times I've had to reboot the machine because sage was just plain fubar.
- Multiple tuners. Others do this but rarely as easily as with sage.
- Supports most of the popular hardware needed for a PVR box.
- The configuration of sage is pretty straightforward and easy. And despite the article, it works pretty much right out of the box if you know how to set up drivers for the hardware.
- It's the only PVR outside of Tivo that I'm aware of that actually HAS an intelligent recording or program-mining function. And despite my feeling that it's far from "intelligent" and doesn't work anywhere near the way I would like it to... That's a definite plus in my book (if not a must.)

Necro · #34 10-12-2005, 11:15 AM

Just my opinion, but the UI is excactly what is needed for a TV based PVR. Anything more and it gets cluttered and has a ton of unneeded stuff all over. That being said, I would like the ability to have icons for shows/show folders. I think that's the biggest thing. (I'm using Cayars STV now, so I cant use the other STV that does this).

jominor · #35 10-12-2005, 11:39 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kanati

I hate java... Always have. I hate swing. I hate their JIT implementation. I hate the virtual machine... It all just makes me shudder. And to think that I'm using a java app as my primary PVR software makes me want to rush to the bathroom...

The .NET runtime is large... But their JIT implementation is so much better. The apps are standard windows apps. Basically .NET is what java COULD have been.

Right. If one wanted to work on one OS, not be scalable to enterprise systems, only have one development tool choice, Java could have been all these things if the developers had been incompetent. Regardless, the fortunate reality is that Java is well suited for software development, and FAR better suited than .Net for server-side applications which is especially interested considering .Net had all the time in the world to copy Java which it did.

jominor · #36 10-12-2005, 11:41 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kanati

- It's the only PVR outside of Tivo that I'm aware of that actually HAS an intelligent recording or program-mining function. And despite my feeling that it's far from "intelligent" and doesn't work anywhere near the way I would like it to... That's a definite plus in my book (if not a must.)

Well, perhaps it should work the way others think it should work. I think it is quite intelligent and requires very little hand-holding.

Great work, IR!!

dagar · #37 10-12-2005, 12:17 PM

If I can hand my 85 year old grandfather the remote and tell him how to use the guide, and select the channels he can use it. Use it like a PVR? No, like a TV, yep. It helps that he has had a D* system for over 5 years

jominor · #38 10-12-2005, 12:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dagar

If I can hand my 85 year old grandfather the remote and tell him how to use the guide, and select the channels he can use it. Use it like a PVR? No, like a TV, yep. It helps that he has had a D* system for over 5 years

I knew Sage 1.4 was a success because my wife asked when I was going to buy it!

Ryokurin · #39 10-12-2005, 01:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fluffdaddy

Ohhhh Fancy animations like the Tivo Beep and the Tivo-man ? No Thanks

People like simplicity. People like the ipod because its very simple. The same goes for Tivo. You can't get no simpler than yes I like this show, and no I dont like this show. Just as the people here wish that there was more there are people that thats all they need. I would give a Tivo to my father. but it wouldn't set foot in my house.

the same goes with MCE. for some people because of the fact that it largely just works is good. the fact that there are some things with sage that you have to use notepad to change in the preferences is a turn off to some people, and then again the multiple options that some people wont get will too. Yes its a non issue once its going but some people may not be able to get it that far. The wizard in 3.0 changes alot of this btw.

Ryokurin · #40 10-12-2005, 01:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mahoney

Java has a bad rep amongst end users because 99% of the time they encounter it via Swing. Swing is the GUI front end used for most desktop Java apps, and I believe Applets; it is unresponsive and because it doesn't use the Windows standard widgets it is difficult to work out how to do things. Frankly it's crap, and a major reason why Java did not take off as a desktop language.

However, Swing is only part of Java, and it's not tohe only way to write a Java GUI app - anyone who has used Eclipse will know that you can write a genuinely excellent desktop application in Java using SWT rather than Swing. And once you've got over Swing's shortcomings, Java is a wonderful language to write in; particularly now that Spring is making it so easy.

Apart from anything else, you can port your application to Linux and Apple Mac with very little pain.

That and the fact that on some programs it can use a very large amount of memory before it attempts to clean itself up and the fact that Microsoft complicated things by releaseing their own version of Java that some programs depend on. Personally I have never seen Sun java screw anything up, but Microsoft Java on the other hand most definitely. Unfortunately most people just think Java is java and therefore is crap.

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