ExtremeTech PVR Article

[dagar]

Originally Posted by jominor

I new Sage 1.4 was a success because my wife asked when I was going to buy it!

Yep. My wife's a geek too so that wasn't an issue. And it's not that he's good at it, but he can which is impressive IMO. But I wouldn't give him a Sage test

[remmy925]

Its been a while since I posted but I would like to put in my meaningless opinion I chose Sage for a few reasons. The tv guide rocks. It has good support for my usbuirt. I liked how it had favorites that could do things like first runs only. There are a few others but thats not my point. I like it. Do I think it could be better. Sure!

I think the statement made about the UI is true. Its functional, but it lacks that whimsical touch. I am seeing it get better, but I dont think its there yet. I think a brushing over with a graphics artist might do some good. Most of the people here are TV offianados....guess what...I'm not. I work, come home....watch some tv. I just want the experience to be a little more fluid. Menus that are a little prettier with things like animations. Menu organization that by default make more sense to my mind. And maybe that touch like Apple OS has. I dont want an apple, but you gotta admit...they do a good job of suckering people in with the pretty. Its part of why I did my little project with the high res channel logos. You know the one I have been too busy to do :P You can have a car with a perfectly running engine, but unless the interior or paint job look good, its assumed its junk. I just really want to point out that some of us arent PVR geniuses and we need the dumbasses pretty interface.

Regardless, great product...will continue to use it......and I am sure the developers will take note and probably work to resolve this.

[blade]

I think to please the widest audience possible Sage needs to have a nice looking UI that's very intuitive and simple. The more options the more confused less savy users will be. Of course all of the tweakers and power users want tons of features and options which is great, but they need to be sort of hidden away so that mom, dad, the wife and kids aren't overwhelmed when trying to perform basic tasks.

[Necro]

Pin-codeable setup menu. Dunno if thats already in there somewhere... but that would be one way to do that.

[jominor]

Originally Posted by dagar

Yep. My wife's a geek too so that wasn't an issue. And it's not that he's good at it, but he can which is impressive IMO. But I wouldn't give him a Sage test

My wife's no geek. That's my point. She liked it on its merit because it worked. Sage proved to be painless. Heck, my mother-in-law is even less of a geek who knows enough to send email and use word and SHE could use Sage.

[Mahoney]

Originally Posted by Kanati

I hate java... Always have. I hate swing. I hate their JIT implementation. I hate the virtual machine... It all just makes me shudder. And to think that I'm using a java app as my primary PVR software makes me want to rush to the bathroom...

The .NET runtime is large... But their JIT implementation is so much better. The apps are standard windows apps. Basically .NET is what java COULD have been.

There's not much difference between a virtual machine and a .net runtime; they're both just an abstraction between machine code and a defined byte code. I'd hope.net had learnt a few things from the 10 years or so they had to copy Java! But on the "standard windows apps" thing - using SWT you get a standard windows app with Java. No-one would ever guess Eclipse was written in Java, it looks and behaves just like any other Windows app.

Personally I find Java an increasing joy to code in, and the fact that what I write can be used on just about any machine is great. With Java 5, SWT and the Eclipse rich client platform, & Spring, it's really reaching maturity. And the more software there is out there that doesn't tie me to one particular person's operating system, the happier I'll be. Is anyone working on writing a .net runtime for the Mac, or Linux? Is such a thing even legal?

[michelkenny]

Originally Posted by Mahoney

Is anyone working on writing a .net runtime for the Mac, or Linux? Is such a thing even legal?

There is an open-source implementation of .net for Linux and Mac already: it's called Mono. I haven't used it yet, so I don't know how good it is, but it's been around for a while now.

[evilpenguin]

I'm a huge fan of fluid animations because they provide you with a certain feeling of flow. The example I like to give is it's like the difference between mapquest and google maps. In mapquest when you want to visually follow a route you have to press one of the directional buttons on the screen and your entire map disappears and a few seconds later a whole new map appears and it isn't readily apparent how the previous and current map relate. With google maps you just drag the entire map and it moves fluidly around your mouse so you never lose your bearings.

I really think some good animations and transitions, not just eye-candy, can provide the same feeling of flow for a PVR app.

[Mahoney]

Originally Posted by michelkenny

There is an open-source implementation of .net for Linux and Mac already: it's called Mono. I haven't used it yet, so I don't know how good it is, but it's been around for a while now.

So you can install the Mono runtime, drop your already compiled .net bytecode that was running on Windows onto it and it just works? Cool.

[salsbst]

Originally Posted by Mahoney

So you can install the Mono runtime, drop your already compiled .net bytecode that was running on Windows onto it and it just works? Cool.

Depends on which libraries you used, and whether or not it has any extern calls to Win32 API, etc, etc, etc.

Just like Java, you can stray from "pure". It's a little easier to stray in .Net, though.

[cmaffia]

...and I don't like fact that MCE requires me to install a new OS....

Originally Posted by flashbacck

I don't like that Sage requires Java JRE either. Java updates have an annoying habit of breaking things that used to work. It's another factor that users have to take into account during troubleshooting, and it shouldn't be.

[jominor]

Originally Posted by salsbst

Depends on which libraries you used, and whether or not it has any extern calls to Win32 API, etc, etc, etc.

Just like Java, you can stray from "pure". It's a little easier to stray in .Net, though.

And I suspect that they haven't ported the entire series of .Net libraries available from MS.

[Kanati]

I don't think mono is quite 100% yet... but they are working on it.

And don't forget the pocketPC .net either... .NET is far from being JUST for windows. It's not totally cross-platform yet, but it'll get there.

[jominor]

Originally Posted by Kanati

I don't think mono is quite 100% yet... but they are working on it.

And don't forget the pocketPC .net either... .NET is far from being JUST for windows. It's not totally cross-platform yet, but it'll get there.

The PocketPC is Windows. Like the X-Box. And Mono will never be 100%. MS has no interest in ever allowing .Net to fully(or even reasonably) work on Linux. This thing has been under development for what 4 years? 5? And I'll guarantee that you can't take any non-trivial .Net application from Windows and run it on Linux with Mono. That thing was a failure before it began. OpenOffice can't supply 100% compatibility with the Word format, in fact no office suite has ever acheived this, so what are the odds that the Mono guys can do this via reverse engineering? Zero.

Heck, tivo has this http://tivohme.sourceforge.net/, an SDK for Java for Tivo.

[Kanati]

Well... I think it wise at this point to say "you stay on your java side of the fence and I'll stay on my .NET side of the fence." That way we wont butt heads about it any more.

[ratchet]

Okay, I've just got to comment here...

I have been using SageTV (2.2.8) for about 3 weeks.

Let me give a little of my background...

I am a programmer, geek, and open source enthusiast. I am picky about what I use, how it works, and what it does... more so than the average joe. I have DirecTV (cable is not available and antenna gets maybe two channels). I currently have a DirecTV Tivo. My wife is not a geek. She knows how to use a computer but has no interest in anything more technical than checking her email.

I built a PVR/Media server with the following specs:
- P4 3.0Ghz ... ASUS P4P800SE
- 3.0GB PC3200 DDR RAM
- 10GB system partition
- 70GB backup/temp partition
- 500GB media/data
- Gigabit ethernet
- Windows XP Home SP2
- PowerDVD video decoder
- 2 x Hauppage PVR-500MCE (for a total of 4 tuners)
- 2 x dual port serial PCI cards
- NVidia GeForce FX 5200 (AGP) (this is in a computer room ... no TV)

I have two clients that are identical with the following:
- Dell GX110 low-profile case
- PIII 866Mhz
- 128MB RAM
- Windows XP Home SP2
- DVD ROM drive
- PowerDVD video decoder
- StreamZap remote
- NVidia GeForce FX 5200 PCI with S-Video out

This setup has proven to be very usable. I will be adding more ram to the clients but do understand that I ONLY use the clients to watch TV. The server is in a room that is very loud (with PC/Servers running 24/7) and connected to my T1.

Being a Tivo user I have to say that SageTV has it's shortcomings... but truth in point is that all of those combined do not for one second make me regret switching to Sage. With sage I can watch recorded TV on any screen in the house at any time without having to transfer files to/from the box that is located beside my TV (read "streaming" here). I can rip my DVDs and put them on the hard drive and not have to hunt for any more discs. Same goes for CDs.

I have a collection of about 120 DVDs and will rip each one of those and add them to my PVR/Media box over the next few months.

My wife likes Sage b/c she can start a show downstairs and finish it upstairs in bed. It has web-based scheduling ability (through the plugin) which adds even more functionality when compared to the crippled DirecTV Tivo.

I started this project with one goal... to be able to record and watch a show on any TV and be able to switch TVs without a hassle. I am COMPLETELY satisfied.

The only thing that I am currently planning to change (outside of more memory on the clients) is the remote control. The streamzap control works, but it doesn't have enough programmable buttons to set it up to watch DVDs without having to go through the options menu.

I think SageTV could use some cleaning up (like what happens when I want to stop a show that has already started recording... it's a pain)... but all-in-all it's the best of the PVRs I tested. (SageTV, BeyondTV, MCE2005, MediaPortal, MythTV).

NOTE: Without the ability to play DVDs from the hard drive I would likely trash the entire project and go looking for another PVR/Media system.

[Kanati]

Being a Tivo user I have to say that SageTV has it's shortcomings...

That seems to be the common thought coming from tivo users. The tivo user interface is the benchmark by which all others should be measured. It's clean, functional, and easy to navigate. It has almost everything you'd want in a pvr (though not a media center).

[that_kid]

I used to use BTV but found that Sage performed better on the same hardware. I would love to go the MCE route but I need more tuners than MCE can do and yes there is a hack to get more tuners working, you can't user serial tuning with mce. Plus you have to use the same linue across all devices which doesn't work for me. So far sage has proven to work very well but I still miss BTV's web scheduling and showsqueeze feature. When I first tried the first thing that came to my mind was how dull it looked but after using different stv's and such i'm happy. Especially because I can use my media mvp's as clients.