What's so bad about SageTV's UI?

[GKusnick]

Originally Posted by stevech

Based on the above 3 or so posts on the learning curve time for Sage Studio, I have to take a pass on it. I'd go for it if it were like a couple of evenings.

If a couple of evenings is all you have to spend on it, there's probably not that much you could accomplish in that length of time anyway even if you knew the tools cold. You could maybe Photoshop some images, or move some menu items around, but you don't need to get very deep into Studio for those sorts of chores.

On the other hand if you want to build something significant that might take a couple of weeks to perfect, then spending the first several days coming up to speed with the tools doesn't seem out of line to me.

[BobPhoenix]

Originally Posted by stevech

Based on the above 3 or so posts on the learning curve time for Sage Studio, I have to take a pass on it. I'd go for it if it were like a couple of evenings.

It wasn't hard to learn I just didn't have much time to spend on it and I would forget everything I thought I knew between - and have to read that chapter of the tutorial over again. When you only have about an hour about every other day at most it makes it hard to remember anything - at least for me. Plus I'm use to procedural code on an IBM mainframe not object oriented code on a PC so I had that to overcome as well. Just because I didn't become comfortable for 6 months doesn't mean you will take that long. I would just start small like rearranging the menus or maybe changing the format of an existing screen first. Then move on. I tried to do my Favorite Channel Lists plugin as my first studio attempt and that was also why it took me so long rather than just moving menus around. Greg is right you can feel comfortable doing that in an afternoon or less. Changing a screen layout in a week or less. And you won't know tell you try. Just read the Studio manual and do the tutorials that will tell you whether you want to do more.

BobP.

[Goodspike]

Originally Posted by sainswor99

II've been trying to think of a reasonable analogy to explain my concerns with the "thrown-together" feel of the stock UI after implementing a new feature, and the best I've come up with so far is: the car stereo.

This might be a really good analogy! The thing I hate about many modern car stereos is they forget that you're going to be driving a car while using them! You can deal with two knobs and six buttons while driving, but some of them have so many tiny buttons it's impossible to use while driving unless you're familiar with it. My daughter's stereo has so many buttons, at first I couldn't even figure out where the on/off button was.

The point being, more modern designs can be much less useful to use, and much less intuitive. But it sure will look nice at first blush.

[dblaine2]

Originally Posted by stevech

Based on the above 3 or so posts on the learning curve time for Sage Studio, I have to take a pass on it. I'd go for it if it were like a couple of evenings.

Why don't you use nielm's Dynamic Customizable Main Menu? It can change a lot of the UI without being a Studio expert. Yes, its a third-party addon but nielm has been real responsive at keeping it up-to-date.

[stevech]

Originally Posted by dblaine2

Why don't you use nielm's Dynamic Customizable Main Menu? It can change a lot of the UI without being a Studio expert. Yes, its a third-party addon but nielm has been real responsive at keeping it up-to-date.

I looked at that during my trial period with Sage. Now that Sage is used so many hours per day, (more than live TV) I guess what I should do is learn how to use Dynamic Customizable.. with my client PC version of Sage to be convinced that it does not introduce instability. Then migrate that to the "operational" sage server. Don't recall if it solves some of the poor-UI (in my opinion) issues such as twice as many button pushes as I'd like for commonly done things - not all of which are on the main menu. I was concerned that if Sage misbehaves, that I will have to deinstall/revert to a "stock" Sage to placate Sage Tech Support. I don't have that concern any longer. Because Sage Tech Support essentially doesn't exist! Fortunately, we have good expert help here.

[nielm]

Originally Posted by stevech

I guess what I should do is learn how to use Dynamic Customizable.. with my client PC version of Sage to be convinced that it does not introduce instability.

Trust me, it doesn't
The only 'instability' that it can introduce is if you remove required menu items But you can always revert to the last saved version, or the supplied defaults.

Then migrate that to the "operational" sage server. Don't recall if it solves some of the poor-UI (in my opinion) issues such as twice as many button pushes as I'd like for commonly done things - not all of which are on the main menu

It only allows you to change the main menu tree -- so the 'selected video popup' which some people don't like will be the same (but there are remote shortcuts for most of the tasks on that -- the icons).
You can however create some quite complex shortcuts to common tasks -- such as a menu item to play a specific playlist.

[stevech]

Thanks - I should revisit this.

The WAF is good but she often asks questions like "why do I have to push the remote buttons so many times for routine things?"

[jbarr]

Originally Posted by stevech

The WAF is good but she often asks questions like "why do I have to push the remote buttons so many times for routine things?"

Excellent, excellent! Now, please elaborate! What routine functions does she use that require multiple button presses? Maybe we can provide solutions? Maybe we can shed some light on just why she finds that aspect of the UI cumbersome.

[jbarr]

I've been away on vacation for a week without email or Internet access, so I apologise for the length of this post....

Earlier in this thread, someone mentioned that SageTV is very "TV-centric", and yes, out-of-the-box I believe it is. The default layout will probably satisfy most users, but obviously, there are those who leverage many of SageTV's other Media Center capabilities.

In my case, probably 95% or more of what my wife and I use SageTV for is TV-centric, so I tailored the menus to accommodate that. Further, our TV-centric use breaks down to something like "SageTV Recordings" 60% of the time, "selecting a live TV show from the EPG" 35% of the time, and the remaining 5% is for checking the schedule, searching for shows, managing favorites, etc. So, I customized the menus to ensure that the most-used functions are on or accessible from the first menu level (And it's a surprisingly, small number of options.) And the customizations easily cover 100% of my wife's SageTV use.

In addition, obviously everybody doesn't use the Hauppauge remote, so your experience could vary significantly, but on that remote, there are dedicated buttons to take me directly to all of the Media Center functions (videos, photos, music) so these are always accessible with a single button press. (I did leave a "Media Center..." selection on my home menu page in case the remote isn't available.) I also re-mapped the Red "don't like this show" button on the lower left of the remote to be a "delete" button. We don't use Intelligent Recordings, so this saves several button presses when deleting unwanted shows. It's things like this that make SageTV so powerful, yet inconsistent from user to user.


OK, all that said, it seems to me that the common theme that's surfacing in this thread is that because of SageTV's sheer depth of features and functions, not everyone uses SageTV the same way. SageTV is not like a toaster or a CD player. It has so many bilt-in and add-on capabilities that the odds of two installations being identical are probably pretty slim. But for those who are "stuck" on the default SageTV layout, by simply adding on a plugin or two, the door opens wide to excellent and very easy customization. (And in my opinion, the Customisable Menus plugin should be your absolute first plugin to install.)

No, this doesn't address the users who are not TV-centric, nor the heavy mouse users, or those with the "visual issues" that people have brought up about the UI, but it at least will get the majority of people to a place where the UI can be logically and intuitively laid out.

[sainswor99]

Originally Posted by jbarr

The default layout will probably satisfy most users...

Interesting assumption, particularly in light of the following statement...

In my case, probably 95% or more of what my wife and I use SageTV for is TV-centric, so I tailored the menus to accommodate that. Further, our TV-centric use breaks down to something like "SageTV Recordings" 60% of the time, "selecting a live TV show from the EPG" 35% of the time, and the remaining 5% is for checking the schedule, searching for shows, managing favorites, etc. So, I customized the menus to ensure that the most-used functions are on or accessible from the first menu level (And it's a surprisingly, small number of options.) And the customizations easily cover 100% of my wife's SageTV use.

You assume that most users will be happy with the default tv-centric UI, but even so, you've had to do some customization in order for it to make the most sense to your usage patterns.

I think it's impossible to ever come to any sort of terms about the issues with the default UI because every time I (or others) make comments about the limitations of the stock UI, someone brings up the customization factor. Don't get me wrong, customization options are great, but I don't know if the average user will feel comfortable doing such customizations. The simple method of menu customization is a user-developed plugin (read: officially unsupported) or a very powerful (and relatively complex) design studio. I just think it would provide a more satisfying out-of-the-box experience if the UI were logically consistent across all of the media options. Even if you primarily purchased Sage to use as a PVR, having consistent options across all media functions would encourage users to explore those options.

Hypothetically speaking: if there were no customization options, AND a competitor offered all of the same media functions (online video, TV PVR, MP3/WMA playback, Photo's, etc) with a more consistent user interface between those functions, I think Sage will be in trouble. Granted, there's a lot of if's in those statements, but as a Sage user, I'd like to think that the product that I enjoy so much will continue to grow and drive the PVR market.

Stu

[rickgillyon]

Originally Posted by sainswor99

I think it's impossible to ever come to any sort of terms about the issues with the default UI because every time I (or others) make comments about the limitations of the stock UI, someone brings up the customization factor.

That's because it's impossible to agree in what the real core requirements are, those 5 or 7 or 8 items on the first menu. Even my geeky son and my geeky self won't agree...

I use a keyboard all the time, and I hate the fact that when I click on a show in the EPG, I don't have two of the three most used options available on that popup: Record and Add Favourite. Seems mad. But I'm sure others see sense in that popup so I'll live with it...

[Opus4]

Originally Posted by rickgillyon

I use a keyboard all the time, and I hate the fact that when I click on a show in the EPG, I don't have two of the three most used options available on that popup: Record and Add Favourite. Seems mad. But I'm sure others see sense in that popup so I'll live with it...

It prevents the pop-up from growing even larger, but there are shortcuts -- use these commands when a show is highlighted:

Favorite (Ctrl+K): Add the show as a Fav, with default settings. (Use Favorite again to remove the fav.)

Record (Ctrl+Y), Favorite (Ctrl+K): Opens Record options dialog, adds Fav, jumps to Fav options screen. (Use Record, Favorite again to remove the fav.)

Record (Ctrl+Y), Record (Ctrl+Y): Add show as a Manual Recording. (Use Record, Record again to cancel the recording.)

Before anyone complains how obscure this might sound, remember: the pop-ups are intended to allow new users to see all their current options by just selecting things in the dialogs. The direct access commands, like listed above, are meant to be shortcuts you can use as you become more familiar with the interface and its options.

- Andy

[sandor]

Originally Posted by stevech

Thanks - I should revisit this.

The WAF is good but she often asks questions like "why do I have to push the remote buttons so many times for routine things?"

i got rid of a lot of this in terms of the WAF by immediately getting a logitech harmony 659. Starting with the tv and audio receiver off, 90% of what we do can be done in less than three button presses. pretty darn good, especially after having to work with a comcast DVR remote prior.

[rickgillyon]

Originally Posted by Opus4

Favorite (Ctrl+K): Add the show as a Fav, with default settings.

Would never do this, as it wouldn't limit to one channel.

Originally Posted by Opus4

Record (Ctrl+Y), Favorite (Ctrl+K): Opens Record options dialog, adds Fav, jumps to Fav options screen.
Record (Ctrl+Y), Record (Ctrl+Y): Add show as a Manual Recording.

These both sound very useful, thanks! I'll be trying these over the weekend...

[Sterf]

Is there any way to change the font used in Sage? If not, there really should be a way.

[jbarr]

Originally Posted by sainswor99

You assume that most users will be happy with the default tv-centric UI, but even so, you've had to do some customization in order for it to make the most sense to your usage patterns.

I assume that because I also assume that not all users frequent this forum, and may not even know about customizations. I'd speculate that many (most?) users are quite happy with the UI. As for me personally, I don't think I've ever had anything that I just left alone. I'm constantly tweaking, customizing, and modifying things, so my specific case may not be typical.

Originally Posted by sainswor99

I think it's impossible to ever come to any sort of terms about the issues with the default UI because every time I (or others) make comments about the limitations of the stock UI, someone brings up the customization factor. Don't get me wrong, customization options are great, but I don't know if the average user will feel comfortable doing such customizations. The simple method of menu customization is a user-developed plugin (read: officially unsupported) or a very powerful (and relatively complex) design studio. I just think it would provide a more satisfying out-of-the-box experience if the UI were logically consistent across all of the media options. Even if you primarily purchased Sage to use as a PVR, having consistent options across all media functions would encourage users to explore those options.

I agree 100%. But for some unknown reason, I believe that the current UI as being in a sort of "transition" period. I started with SageTV at v5, and the UI between the latest v6 build and the v5 version I purchased is in many ways very different, particularly the "other media" areas. So yes, I'd love to see more consistency, more polish.

But there may be another solution, so here's a suggestion: Why not create user-selectable preset configurations? Maybe have a Setup option that would let the user pick among several layout choices: TV-centric, Music-centric, Media-centric, whatever. Obviously, some hard logical thought would need to go into just what would make "good" layouts, but it is very doable. Conceptually, this could be as easy as providing dome preset menu files that could be loaded using Neilm's Customisable Menu plugin, but ideally, this really should be "core" functionality to make it out-of-the-box usable.

And this brings me to another issue: promotion. I think that SageTV really needs to promote customizations more. The ONLY reference to customizing that I could find is a small blurb on their info page that is targeted at Developers. There is NOTHING said to the potential user about the amazing (and free!) add-ons available through the SageTV community. I really wish they would promote that more. Which leads me to...

Originally Posted by sainswor99

Hypothetically speaking: if there were no customization options, AND a competitor offered all of the same media functions (online video, TV PVR, MP3/WMA playback, Photo's, etc) with a more consistent user interface between those functions, I think Sage will be in trouble. Granted, there's a lot of if's in those statements, but as a Sage user, I'd like to think that the product that I enjoy so much will continue to grow and drive the PVR market.

If that were the case, then many of us (including me) might look elsewhere, but then again, one of the MAIN reasons that I chose SageTV over the competition was the fact that SageTV is not only customizable, but there are excellent add-ons available.

BTW Stu, thanks for your excellent comments!!!

[sainswor99]

Originally Posted by jbarr

But there may be another solution, so here's a suggestion: Why not create user-selectable preset configurations? Maybe have a Setup option that would let the user pick among several layout choices: TV-centric, Music-centric, Media-centric, whatever. Obviously, some hard logical thought would need to go into just what would make "good" layouts, but it is very doable. Conceptually, this could be as easy as providing dome preset menu files that could be loaded using Neilm's Customisable Menu plugin, but ideally, this really should be "core" functionality to make it out-of-the-box usable.

That's a reasonable compromise (at least from a user perspective; not sure how the developers would feel about it ).

Originally Posted by jbarr

And this brings me to another issue: promotion. I think that SageTV really needs to promote customizations more. The ONLY reference to customizing that I could find is a small blurb on their info page that is targeted at Developers. There is NOTHING said to the potential user about the amazing (and free!) add-ons available through the SageTV community. I really wish they would promote that more.

That's the issue I think many of us have been dancing around; who is Sage targeting as a potential consumer? Is it the tweaker or the unexperienced user?

Originally Posted by jbarr

BTW Stu, thanks for your excellent comments!!!

Thanks; I was starting to feel like a troublemaker. Wondered how many people had blocked me

[jbarr]

Originally Posted by sainswor99

That's the issue I think many of us have been dancing around; who is Sage targeting as a potential consumer? Is it the tweaker or the unexperienced user?

Personally, I believe it could be both. And why not? All it would take is to implement my suggestion above (to make it easier for the newbies) and then promote the heck out of customizing (or the tweakers.) In either case, though, SageTV really isn't promoting customization (at least on the initial "information" pages.) The "Technology" link provides a link to customizations on this forum, but really, that's about it.

The ability to customize, and promotion of available customizations should be a feature that should be marketed, not buried as an afterthought!

[stevech]

agree! The default menus should be simplified and sort of TiVo-alike. far simpler than they are now for the DVR functions. Example: there are cases where one clicks on DELETE (a recording) and that takes you to a menu where you must scroll/click twice more to delete. When these things are done frequently, it's a negative.

Deviating from the default screens, the geeks amongst *us* can fiddle to their hearts' desire.

[sainswor99]

Sorry to re-open old wounds, but I just read this post by Andy in another thread (don't bother reading the whole thread; just got pissy at the end). However, I thought this post was an excellent example of why the SageTV interface needs some improvement:

From http://forums.sagetv.com/forums/show...0&postcount=36

Originally Posted by Opus4

For anyone reading all this who isn't familiar with SageTV's menu structure and is wondering about SageTV's menu hierarchy, there is usually a difference between Back and Left:

• Back is used to jump Back in the history of the menus you have viewed.
  
  
• On most screens, Left is used to go to the screen's parent menu. This has some exceptions:
  • The Program Guide and a few other screens do not use Left to go to a parent, because Left is already used for another purpose.
  • On a few screens, Left functions as Back, because there is no well-defined parent due to being able to get to that location from several locations, w/o any one of them being the obvious parent. You can get to the Recording Detail screen from multiple locations.

Also note that:

• After using Back, you can use Forward to jump forward to the menu where you used to be in the menu history. This is similar to a browser's Back & Forward commands.
  
  
• After using Left when it jumps to a parent menu, you have added a new menu to the menu history, so there is no location to go to when Forward is used. This is like going to a web site's home page, clicking on a link there, then clicking on the next page's link to the home page again.

- Andy

I appreciate the difficulty in developing a 10-foot GUI, but this is a classic example of code evolution; navigation is approached on a screen-by-screen basis, rather than a holistic approach to the entire application (eg., for most pages, Left does "this", but on some pages, it does something else). Do I have an easy answer? No, but I do think that at some point the app needs to be reviewed for consistent usage in order to become more efficient.

Stu