Decoder Quality / TIVO envy

[Funky D]

I figured as much Cobra... my crystal ball has me going down the exact path as you, although I'm hoping the brain collective here can spare me the 50 hours of...

"Hmmm, which looked better... setting A, or setting B??"

we all know what a joy eyedoctor visits are... *smile*

Any chance of you writing a detailed FAQ of your findings/settings?

Funky D

[jptaz]

I have my system connected to my projector using DVI running at 800x600 on my nvidia FX5200. I am using an Intervideo decoder (not the one that comes with the Hauppage 250).
My projected image is about 60". When watching movies recording off of my Digital Cable
Box at the standard 2GB rate and with tweaked input and outtput settings my picture looks
as good as from my Pioneer Elite DVD player that is connected via component input.

Most of the time I watch SageTV on my 25" Sony TV which is connected to via the composite
TV out on the nvidia fx5200 with a res of 720 x 480 at 60hz. On the TV it looks great. The
only issue is the computer is a bit slow so at times high motion scenes get rough.

I used to have an XCard in the system and it was way better than my current setup, but for
now I will live with this until SageTV 2.0 and PVR 350 GUI support on the TV out is available
or the MediaMVP is supported.

I think the most important thing to remember is that scaling beyond 720 x 480 is going to make any compressed stream look worse because you are making any artifact or compression flaw bigger and blowing it out of proportion. I am a big proponent of hardware decoders as my XCard looked awesome. I am sure that software can be great, but I can not see investing all
the money in a computer ( fast enough processor, memory, disk ) when a decoder is $100
or $200 for the PVR 350 which can record and decode.

Just my 2 cents.

John

[mlbdude]

Keep in mind that the 350 only outputs interlaced video via its svideo. That is a big no no when connecting to a digital device unless the device is really old. With HDTV and such the 350 will become useless.

[falchulk]

I dont't know what you are talking about with 2gig/hr beng useless. It must be your hardware. Like I said it looks great on my 55" tv with the svideout of my shuttle. I will be getting a vga to HDTV component converter soon to provide even better quality. Previous to this setup, i used a via m10000 on a 32" tv with no issues at all. I must admit that I do use overlay and that might make a diffrence. I have another system that has a ati 8500dv that I attempted to use with snapstream. They use VMR and the live tv picture sucked. I have a very critical eye and stopped using showshifter due o video quality problems with divx. I can see no sign of artifacting, tearing or any other picture degradation.

[Funky D]

jptaz, I'm WAY confused by your post...

You used to use the intervideo decoder (which I'm using now) and your quality was as good as component DVD?!?!? Dude, cmon... please don't make us explain what I just complained about. Your setup used to enhance the signal SO MUCH, that TV looked like DVD? Cmon. Think about it please.

Then, you moved to an Xcard, it looked way better (than DVD mind you!) and now (for some unknown reason) you switched away from it. Presumably, the picture was TOO realistic, and scaring you. *laugh*

Really guys, I'm appreciating the effort, but too many people are posting nonsencial scenarios.

If anyone has any good info about the XCard (how much it helped, where to get one, any problems in an HTPC/Projector Setup/Sage), I'd love to hear it.

If people have great setup info on the Elecard/DScaler setup, and rave reviews on how it improved thier quality, I'd love to hear that too.

People just looking to talk about how their setup looks 10 times better than HDTV, using a PVR 250, some tin foil, and a 1976 9" Zenith black and white TV, please... move on.

D

[White94Cobra]

One of the big increases in quaility for me was going from 800x600 to 720x480 - no more scaling of the video. I am also using the Elecard decoder with the scalerbob setting. I also turned off the softwaredeinterlace setting in the registry for the Elecard decoder (very important - set this to 0
HKCU\Elecard\MPEG2 Video Decoder\SoftwareDeinterlace). The brightness/contrast settings will vary greatly by display device, so it's best if you play around with those on your own. As a starting point I use the following:
Brightness: 131
Contrast: 75
Hue: 0
Saturation: 65 - 70 (cable looks better at 70, but Sat. looks better at 65 - anyone know of a way to set individual cards?)
Sharpness: 2

I'm also using an FX5200 via Svideo to output to a standard 35" Sony TV. However, using the client on my main PC connected to a 20.1" LCD screen via DVI, I've found that the Elecard/Dscaler combo works best as well - the PQ isn't as good because it's scaling it to 1600x1280. BTW - what's the native resolution on your projector?

When you say your PQ is terrible, is it the artifacts, color, sharpness, or a combination?

Keep in mind that while PQ may look good directly viewing the cable input from a tuner, the extra noise in a typical cable setup makes for poor quality at lower bitrates. As an example, even though viewing my cable vs DirecTV directly on the TV shows a modest difference on most channels, when recording the DirecTV looks MUCH better than the cable - unless I use a bitrate at or above 3G/hr.

I believe an SA Tivo's Best quality is 3G/hr at 480x480. My PQ is MUCH better than my friend's SA Tivo at Best, so it is possible, it just takes some work. Hope this helps, Good luck.

[jptaz]

Funky D,

I use the Intervideo Codec not the Hauppage Version. This does as good as my DVD
comparing same sources....you can not do an apples and oranges comparision.

The video was captured at the standard 2GB rate from my Digital Cable Box from
using composite inputs. This was then burned to DVD using TMPGenc DVD author
which did not transcode the data. Then burned to DVD. The DVD was played on
my Pioneer Elite 37 DVD player to my projector via a high quality Component cable.
The projector was set to full which means 800x600. I then switched inputs and
watched the MPEG2 File using the Intervideo Codec with a res of 800x600. I found no
noticable differnce in the two playback means (Decoder in DVD player and scaler in Projector).

So I did not mean to say a purchased DVD from a studio master compares to an analog
signal off cable TV encoded to MPEG2. My point was that the output side which you seem to
have issue with is the problem, is fine on my projector after having calibrated right to deal
with jaggies. Jaggies are a result of bad upscaling. Go to 720x480 and you will see a
difference. SCALING IS BAD!!!

I stopped using the Xcard because it does not support SageTV GUI. I accepted the high
motion problems for the GUI until a decoder supports GUI.

Your issues are probably configuration. Calibrate your PVR 250 and your projector.

If you are comparing a directivo to a pvr 250 the directivo is going to be better as it has
not been been converted.

get a clue man. burn a dvd from recorded material off the pvr 250 and compare in on
dvd player and sagetv playback. if the two do not look pretty much the same then make
sure the projector is using the same settings and start working on the overlay settings,
that is what I did and I like the results.

John

[Funky D]

Cobra,

I'll look into tweaking my setup with a few settings, and probably devoting some time to the Elecard/Dscaler combo. Just didn't want to invest the many hours of testing I know it'll take.

Hmmm, can't figure out why everyone is freaking out about scaling. My projector runs at 800x600 for almost all my htpc needs, and scales everything from DIVX to DVD without a hitch (thanks zoomplayer). The picture quality is just incredible on those sources. Scaling / hardware isn't the issue. I'm sure of it. If it can project windows, divx, and DVD material with such razor-sharp precision, it SHOULD be able to do it with other sources.

"Terrible" may be a bit much for my PQ, but compared to TIVO, yeah, it's very noticeable. Jaggies and banding are the most common, and everyone knows what fast motion looks like.

I'll try tweaking my recording setup as well and see if I can squeeze a little more quality out of it. I wish there were a repository for this kinda info, and possibly an easier way to try out recording / playback settings. Maybe Nar is listening... *smile*

Thanks a ton Cobra!

Funky D

(John, "get a clue"?? LOL... enjoy your "Pioneer Elite 37 DVD player " and high quality cable. Sleep well knowing you are the coolest thing alive)

[stanger89]

Originally posted by Funky D
No offence Stanger, but statements like that kinda sabotage your credibility.


"Also my bad cable looks better through my 250 than it does straight to the TV"

No offense taken. Acutally I attribute the difference to the 250 having a much better tuner/decoder being much better than my TV's (no magic), also progressive video from Sage looks much better than interlaced direct (my TV doesn't deinterlace or scale so scanlines are aweful for SDTV).



<snip>

Once again, for the people in the back.... NOT A HARDWARE OUTPUT PROBLEM. *smile*

I think this is what I've been trying to say, apparently not clearly though. Since you are very pleased with DVD/DivX output I reassert that your decoder/output isn't your problem, if it were DVDs wouldn't be acceptable either. Try this technique for setting the Video Proc Amp (the defaults are way off) settings of your 250, that can make a big difference:
http://forums.sage.tv/forums/showthr...ght=brightness

Funky D

Good Luck

[Funky D]

Is that the right thread Stanger? Looks like a completely different topic...

D

[stanger89]

Don't I feel stupid

Oh, I fixed the link, hopefully that works better.

[mikejaner]

SA Tivo at best quality is 540X480 5mbps, although I have mine hacked to 720X480, with 5mbps

PVR 350 is interlaced, for those who have standard tv's

Xcard does both interlaced, and progressive scan and has component out along with svideo.

I guarantee you if you have a hardware decoder, you will notice the difference in detail and smoothness in the picture.

mikejaner

[jptaz]

Funky D,

If you are such a Video snob why would you subject yuorself to anything less than HD source material? Get a DirecTivo and get you better quality or get a Tivo and see how it really compares?

Clearly you are not comparing like sources. You are so determined that the Input source is calibrated to optimal settings and you spent more than $800 0n a DVD player then why would spend so little money on a decoder for your HTPC?

If ZoomPlayer looks so good with Divx and DVD have you tried the MPEG files from the PVR 250? If they look bad stop blaming playback and focus on the source settings and calibration. If you are such a video snob you should have a clue as to how to calibrate and input source right? And an output source?

If you came in here all high and mighty thinking your system is superior to others why bother asking us go over to AVS Forum with the Rich folks with Crazy setups.

If you really have taken the hardware out of the equation have you burned the MPEG2 to a DVD and played it on your "superior" DVD player? This is the only true way to get the hardware out of the equation and then you have to at least make a real effort to calibrate both output and input sources.

If you afraid of investing 50 hours calibrating you System then I doubt you are such the video pro you claimed to be as I can not imagine any "videophile" who has not spent long hours calibrating their system.

My system works great for me. If you are so high and mighty as to think just because the equipment I use is inferior then you are the one who should "Sleep well knowing you are the coolest thing alive". I never claimed that my setup was "coolest thing alive", but I said they looked equal on boththe PC and DVD minus the motion. If you come back after comparing and they are equal do the intelligent thing and accept that the input source is either not calibrated right or it does not meet you "high" standards.

John

[jptaz]

Funky D,

Mock my setup all you want, but if you can find a flaw in my method of removing the "Hardware" from equation as you claim please let me know.

John

[insomniac]

If if makes anyone feel better, my setup sucks shit. thx.

I.

[Beelzebub]

The only decoder that seemed to work for me is the one used for NVDVD. I never did try powerdvd, so that one might be good too.
You should download the trial version, all you need to do is install and change all your decoders to default. It should use the NDVD decoder. If your not sure a Nvdvd icon will appear in your sys tray when watching tv.


http://www.nvidia.com/page/nvdvd_downloadtrial.html


Of course the best solution would be a hardware decoder, personally I think the Xcard is the best for its quality and price. Unfortuneltly the Sage interface isn't supported, and I haven't heard of any plans of Version 2 supporting it. So your only real choice for Hardware decoding is the 350. The only problem is its expensive and doesn't support DVD playback.

[Funky D]

Stanger, thanks! Great thread! Nar should be including that with the Sage docs under tuning and performance.

John, I'm not a "video snob". I just want to tweak my video performance. Cobra and John are scratching that itch perfectly. I wasn't bagging on your system, I was trying to illustrate that you seemed to be more interested in talking about YOUR system, than answering my questions. No need to get huffy.

Thanks Beel, I'll give that a shot while I'm running through Elecard comparisons.

I don't have a DVD burner... 1.5 TB of drive space... yes.

D

[jimbobuk]

I watch my Sage recordings and dvds on my projector too sometimes.. (a panasonic 300e) I can clearly see that tv resolution doesn't really work perfectly on such a large (~100") screen.. but if i am far enough away it works ok..

I am in the UK so benefit from increased PAL resolution anyways, I imagine those 100 less lines to make a difference, but its not like you can do much about that...

Its crucial with an LCD projector to try and get your projector operating at native resolution.. doom9's forum has a lot of discussion on this and although on video its MUCH less obvious than looking at text and your desktop I always strive to go for native res on mine... being a 16:9 projector my native res is 960x540 ...

To be honest though i doubt its the non-native res that is causing the problems.. your standard tv through the projector will almost certainly be running at non-native too...

Discussions as to which bitrate to use are interesting.. I've never tried to test on identical video and pick one.. I just rely on dvd standard at 3.5gig an hour... although the haupauge has a good encoder its no where near as efficient as an offline CCE-esque encoder.. I've noticed with recent bios updates too that on certain game shows with strong background i start getting macro blocks sticking.. where by parts of the edges of people stay stuck for a few frames whilst the rest continues... mostly though the encoding is very good.. its a very high bitrate but it is quite a cheap card.. even better hardware encoders must cost a fortune... with 95% of stuff though it looks VERY good... very very close to what it looks like live..

I believe the biggest problem you'll be seeing with your video quality is that of deinterlacing... your projector being progressive is a bit of frustration when trying to watch interlaced sources... again i'm lucky being with PAL sources as a lot of ours are now recorded progressively and just interlaced out.. meaning that if everything is in sync i deinterlace back to the original progressive frames and get a perfect picture... this is only the case with recorded programs.. most live stuff like sports, weather, news etc will be interlaced and basically you then get all the problems with fast motion etc.. I'm not sure how it stands in the US with NTSC but i thought you guys have this interlaced scenario all the time as to get progressive into interlaced for you at 30fps involves inverse 3:2 pulldown or something... your interlaced fields must vary in this 3:2 pattern such that occasionally you have progressive frames in 2 fields, other times not... unlike PAL which will have progressive frames in every 2 fields if the original material was progressive..

Anyways this i bet is your problem... even my projector driven directly by my satelite box has evident interlacing artefacts if you look closely.. comparing your friends interlaced recorder on an interlaced device is never going to stand up to your recorder of interlaced material playing back on a progressive device... the reason that dvds look better is that the deinterlacing to film is possible, I assume you can never achieve this with tv... divx's if done right will already be deinterlaced reasonably.. usually from a dvd they'll look as good as the dvd in that regard..

Its a bit of a pain but cant really be helped.. I am grateful to be with the PAL system as it seems to give me a better progressive potential out of the tv system... I'm not sure how easy it is but getting interlaced out of your machine using a 350 or xcard will then let you get a really nice quality.. indeed if you burn a recording to a dvd and play it in a standard dvd you will be VERY impressed by the quality that you get.. I certainly was.. it looked pretty much perfect when i last tried this...

Sadly for me and anyone else driving a progressive device at native resolutions xcards and the like dont really help as much as when driving a standard tv..

As for decoders.. I'm in a bit of OS limbo at the moment, I will be reinstalling again shortly and will then get nvdvd installed again (the pain of contacting nvidia to do this does frustrate) but generally with a modern machine you should get very few hiccups with the decoding.. I rarely notice any problems beyond the deinteracling ones.. sadly i watch tv using my sage client off of the machine with the pvr-250.. I dont seem to be able to get the haupage video decoders installed (they normally install with the pvr-250.. which is in another machine) so I am using cyberlink powerdvd4 which has no obvious reg hack to get the speed up that i once enjoyed... anyone else know how to do this?! get those installed without the pvr-250 present

[jptaz]

Funky D,

I apologize for getting defensive.

My point is that I do not think you can truly rule out hardware unless you are able to do the experiment I have. I suspect the reason that DVDs and DIVX movies play so well in zoom player as opposed to MPEG2 from PVR 250 is because their streams are highly optimized.

A DVD is mastered in multiple passes and is a clean, highly optimzed stream and even a slow PC like mine ( P3 700 256MB ram ) can playback the video without jaggies and motion problems. Using the exact same codec and player on an MPEG2 file or a DVD from my PVR 250 has motion problems where as on my DVD player I do not see the motion problems and truthfully I do not believe I record any material that has the potential for jaggies or if I do I am only watching it on my TV so they are not noticable, but I did do the experiment with my projector using "Alias" as the program.

A DIVX movie usually is not encoded in multiple passes but it can look ahead more than the PVR 250 can to make really optimal compression decisions and generally are encoded from clean source material.

So basically you will need more CPU power / memory / better codec for dealing with this type of MPEG2 Data. From my experimentation I basically settled on the Intervideo from a ballance between performance and quality. For me to add more Processing power / memory to my computer is not cost effective as compared to buying a hardware Decoder. I loved my XCard which is $85 at buy.com and will connect directly to your project using either VGA, Componet, Svideo, Composite and supports upscalled progressive output, except for on DVDs, Not sure why they made this limitation. I would love to use it with SageTV, but since SageTV does not provide OSD support for the card I have decided to live with minor motion problems until 2.0 and PVR 350 OSD suport is availble. This is still only a $200 option and I can not upgrade Processor or Memory for this price and as a bonus I will get another encoder card.

I hope this helps explain why your system and codec should not necesarily be able to play PVR 250 video as well as DVD, DIVX and WMA. So you can not claim that hardware is not the issue unless you have a hardware decoder like the Tivo boxes you are comparing to.

John

[jimbobuk]

dvds and divxs will play better than recorded tv because they will be deinterlaced properly.. and encoded better.. I'm pretty sure it'll all be down to interlaced problems.. surely...