CES post-show n00b report

[ToonGal]

Just got home from CES in LV, and "Tivo" alternatives were the most interesting things I found. Two were head-over-heels better than the rest: Sage and MSFT.

Not knowing about Sage before the show, I have to admit, I was very impressed by the v2.0 interface. It looked and functioned as slick as the Tivo interface (although I guess the key word is "looked" as it is obviously only a demo). The free integrated TV guide, 'season pass' show programming, multiple tuner, 'clean' interface etc. were features that distanced Sage from all other vendors (nVidia, ATI, etc.) I saw day one. As I read some articles here, and look at the v1.4ish interfaces, I'd guess current users are in for a pleasant surprise by how nice v2 looks/works. Sage was definately the highlight of day one.

My goal was/is to build a "Tivo" unit that will be centralized in my office, be available to all house TVs, open standard file format (to burn archive orig fmt and/or VCD's of any interesting content), while being able to use my system as a computer simultaneously. After talking with Jeffrey (aka. Narflex) and seeing the demo, most of this looks relatively easy to implement. House redistribution notwithstanding, it is all there. Afterwards, I found a house coax switch company at CES that could theoretically rewire the house to control output from/to anywhere to solve house distribution issues.

Day 2 found the MSFT booth, which was displaying Windows XP Media Center Edition (MCE). While I found the features similar in functionality to what I liked about Sage, there was one feature that gave MSFT a killer 'lead' in my decision process: Media Center Extender Technology. They have a box that can be connected wired/wireless from the MCE server and directly to a TV, to allow direct access from anywhere in the house. No complicated rewiring, and easy flexibility / expandibility.

While that is a key plus in my own personal trending, I most follow this with an "I hate MSFT" statement. Their format is proprietary (.dvr fmt is apparantly an .asf conatiner with junk around the .mpg file), and getting information from anyone at a lower level was almost impossible. That type of attitude is exactly why I don't like Tivo, and want to build a Sage-type unit.

Anyway, on to questions I have for anyone who wants to help. Sage employees (esp Narflex, liked talking to you) please chime in. Didn't have enough time to get back to the Hauppauge booth, so here they are:

1) The MSFT h/w extender is extremely sexy and useful, although they say not available until mid-04 (translation: Jan '05). Ideas on how to have a Sage server system in my office WITHOUT the need of additional networked computers to view them on TVs outside my office (4+)? I'm guessing this is their competitive edge, but I really want to make sure. I so do NOT want to buy a reseller's h/w package just to get MCE, and would prefer to work with Sage if I can.

2) What is the deal with all these programs: SageRecorder, SageTV, SageTVClient? Are they all reduced to SageTV v2.0 and just individual components in v1.4ish? The interface (I thought) I saw looked relatively stand-alone. This just because I didn't see the individual components? Curious to understand the pricing scheme. V2.0 looked great, if I haven't said it enough already.

3) Your competitors shared what I believe to be spurious lies at CES. While I'm sure they are wrong, please refute, just for my piece of mind:
a) You can't use your computer as a computer while watching TV shows without degrading the quality of the recording.
b) You can't watch a pre-recorded show while watching live feeds.
c) You can't run 2+ tuners in the same computer, because of H/W conflicts.
d) Their video file formats are proprietary too.
e) There is an annual fee for the TV guide access.
There were other things said, but not as relevant to me.

4) How open is the interface for developers? Is the core available for tweaks through any provided interface? If no, are you generally responsive to interface suggestions? Tivo lacks certain functions that would be nice to change. For example:
a) 30 min live TV buffer is configurable. My friend wanted to lower it to 10 minutes to save disk space, where I wanted it to be ~60+ mins to be able to view a 1 hr show that might happen to be on the 'live' channel.
b) 'default' channel after recording. My son likes PBS Kids TV, and I record Sesame Street, which is on in the morning. However, by the time I turn on the TV, I'd prefer my 60 minute buffer to be on CNBC 24/7 after recordings so I can catch up on any financial news, instead of scoring some episode of "Barney".
I have LOTS more ideas, actually, but these two are enough to show what I mean. I actually went to CES with the idea of building an environment like yours, but now far more interested in just buying.

As slick as MCE looks, and the growth they've had since '03, I'd still prefer to work with Sage. I'm guessing you are MUCH more responsive to your user base and have a loyal customer base in return.

Thanks for the time, all. Hope to become a long-term regular.

[mikejaner]

1: A client has been talked about with the Media MVP for Sage 2.0. This would cover what MCE is doing.

3a: Degrading of the recording would not happen, but choppy playback of the recording might occur, if you don't have a hardware decoder.
3b: I do this all the time with my sage client and my media MVP.
3c: Some people in this forum have 3 tuners, and I have heard of somebody with 4
3d: The video is written to the HD in MPEG2 format. You can't get much less proprietary than that.
3e: There is no fee whatsoever for the guide.

4: SageTv 2.0 will come with Sage Studio, which in the not so exact words of Jeff/Narflex,Let you change anything you can see on the screen.
4a: Sage records whatever you are watching, and deletes it later on. In other words, if you watched "Queer Eye for the Straight Guy" on LiveTV, it would be on the hard drive, even though you didn't select to record it. Sage does this, then cleans out the hard drive to make more room for new shows as it needs it. I like this technique better than ones used by other companies.
4b: Not sure about this one, but don't see why it would be difficult to do.

mikejaner

[Jason]

"...there was one feature that gave MSFT a killer 'lead' in my decision process: Media Center Extender Technology. They have a box that can be connected wired/wireless from the MCE server and directly to a TV, to allow direct access from anywhere in the house. No complicated rewiring, and easy flexibility / expandibility."

-

It sounds just like a Sage + MediaMVP... Or at least it will sound like that when a Client for the MVP comes out. (Hint Hint).



-Jason

[Jason]

"...there was one feature that gave MSFT a killer 'lead' in my decision process: Media Center Extender Technology. They have a box that can be connected wired/wireless from the MCE server and directly to a TV, to allow direct access from anywhere in the house. No complicated rewiring, and easy flexibility / expandibility."

-

It sounds just like a Sage + MediaMVP... Or at least it will sound like that when a Clinet for the MVP comes out. (Hint Hint).



-Jason

[fidget]

On subject #3, I think that they may have been talking about their systems, especially if they use cards without hardware encoders. With a hardware MPEG encoder, the computer is just transferring data from the tuner card, over the PCI bus, to the hard drive. This takes less than 1% of the CPU. Because of this, a) is definitely false with SageTV.

3b: I just assembled a new recorder PC and was doing some testing yesterday. I was able to record over the three installed PVR-250 tuner cards and watch a pre-recorded program (as well as jump around the program). Because of the way SageTV works, there is no difference between watching a prerecorded show and a live one (they both play back what has been recorded to disk). I could have added a fourth tuner (that is attached via the network), but I was testing the reliability of the PCI interface.

3c: I have never had any problem with only two tuner cards. My previous attempt at making a recorded PC used a KT400 chipset from VIA and this had a problem when I added the third tuner. This is not a SageTV problem nor is it a Hauppauge driver problem, but seems to be a problem with VIA chipsets. The new PC uses an Intel chipset and works perfectly (as stated above, three tuners are not a problem). The only hardware conflict of which I am aware is between the -15 and -16 versions of the tuner cards (and this is a Hauppauge driver issue). The PVR-350 only uses the -15 and the PVR-250 can be either (although the newer ones use -16).

3d: I have used standard MPEG-2 editors to edit the resulting MPEG files and have burnt the resulting files to DVD without any issue.


From the statements being made, my guess is that the people making them were the hardware PVR vendors (i.e., TiVo) and not other "software" vendors like SnapStream. When I was doing my investigation about six months ago, SageTV was the only solution that supported the hardware MPEG encoders and decoders (like the XCard and the decoder in the PVR-350).

[fidget]

One thing I forgot to mention. DVD compatible MPEG-2 streams are 1.8, 2.5, and 3.25 GB/hr, so a wireless connection (even a "54 Mb/s" one) will have difficulties. When I play back a 3.25 GB/hr file over the network, it results in about 7-8 Mbps of network traffic. You should expect 20-30% utilization of a wireless network so an 802.11b network won't work and the a and g standards will probably be able to reliably carry only one stream.

[stanger89]

I see others already answered most of your questions, but I'll drop a few comments in too.

Originally posted by ToonGal

My goal was/is to build a "Tivo" unit that will be centralized in my office, be available to all house TVs, open standard file format (to burn archive orig fmt and/or VCD's of any interesting content), while being able to use my system as a computer simultaneously. After talking with Jeffrey (aka. Narflex) and seeing the demo, most of this looks relatively easy to implement. House redistribution notwithstanding, it is all there. Afterwards, I found a house coax switch company at CES that could theoretically rewire the house to control output from/to anywhere to solve house distribution issues.

Wow, that sounds like a nightmare. Like others have said, it sounds like there will be a client for the MediaMVP coming, that would be a much better choice. Also, even without the client the MediaMVP can play anything recorded by SageTV, it just can't control Sage.

2) What is the deal with all these programs: SageRecorder, SageTV, SageTVClient? Are they all reduced to SageTV v2.0 and just individual components in v1.4ish? The interface (I thought) I saw looked relatively stand-alone. This just because I didn't see the individual components? Curious to understand the pricing scheme. V2.0 looked great, if I haven't said it enough already.

The three programs are really three programs. I'd expect to see them all stay with the move to 2.0. Here's what they are:

SageTV - the main app, this is what you played with at the booth (I'm almost positive).

SageClient - It's a client, it runs on another computer and connects to the main SageTV box over a network, it provides the same user experience as SageTV.

SageRecorder - First, its a VCR, it simply records, no EPG, no fancy UI, etc. But secondly, it works as a network encoder for SageTV. SageTV can use a remote computer with SageRecorder just like a local tuner.

Hope that helps.

[insomniac]

Originally posted by ToonGal

1) The MSFT h/w extender is extremely sexy and useful, although they say not available until mid-04 (translation: Jan '05). Ideas on how to have a Sage server system in my office WITHOUT the need of additional networked computers to view them on TVs outside my office (4+)? I'm guessing this is their competitive edge, but I really want to make sure. I so do NOT want to buy a reseller's h/w package just to get MCE, and would prefer to work with Sage if I can.

I believe this would just be an audio/video sender with remote control extender built in. I have had something like this employed in my bedroom for 6 months now. Works fine & now costs about $50-$100.

The one thing I can say that I dont like is getting random interference from errant wireless frequencies (mine was on 2.4gz range). This range is quite crowded these days.

I.

[SHS]

Well I guest ever one cover everthing

[videogeek]

ToonGal, something like this Wall-Plugged Ethernet Bridge may solve the wiring problems for you and many others. Allows simultaneous shared Internet access across existing 110V Electrical Outlets. Faster than 802.11b wireless, cheaper than rewiring the house.

SageTV 2 looks great and Studio is a breeze to use. But I have a feeling many will be disappointed because all their 'requests' are not yet implemented. Frey is a 2 person company (Dan & Jeff) - great guys. I like their approach: Basic functionality and stability first. Naturally I am also a bit disappointed that my main 2 requested features are not yet implemented (category/folder structure and Tivo like FF/RW). OSD through the 350 is done (according to Jeff).

As for the competitive shoot-out between BTV and Sage - there was none. I stopped by on day 1 and day 3 and both days there was nobody from BTV to bee seen at their stand. I played around a little bit with it (BTV) and I am not impressed - same old with a new name (I am glad I sold my copy).

As for availability of a beta: I am told it should be available within a few weeks (about 2 weeks but I would never hold them to that). Unlike some of the whiners here I know what is involved to get a beta released and constant asking does not make anything faster. They will release it when it's ready, period.

[insomniac]

Now..I would not be one of those whiners, but you think that your way out of line. If there were "promises" made for ETA; in my opinion, they should of been made good by either stating it will take longer or by delivering.

This was 75% of all complaints that I have seen. All of which are rightfully made in my book.

I too am in a developement and "high tech" environment. And understand what it is like to release a beta. Although I would of been fired if I had no explination for my actions and/or statements towards a future release or ETA.

That being said, I do feel that Jeff and Dan are very receptive as a whole, and do appreciate what they are bringing us as a product. I just believe that the statements which have been made in the past few months should be viewed as constructive criticism addressing "what the consensus wants". After all, we are what is keeping them in business.

I.

Originally posted by videogeek
ToonGal, something like this Wall-Plugged Ethernet Bridge may solve the wiring problems for you and many others. Allows simultaneous shared Internet access across existing 110V Electrical Outlets. Faster than 802.11b wireless, cheaper than rewiring the house.

SageTV 2 looks great and Studio is a breeze to use. But I have a feeling many will be disappointed because all their 'requests' are not yet implemented. Frey is a 2 person company (Dan & Jeff) - great guys. I like their approach: Basic functionality and stability first. Naturally I am also a bit disappointed that my main 2 requested features are not yet implemented (category/folder structure and Tivo like FF/RW). OSD through the 350 is done (according to Jeff).

As for the competitive shoot-out between BTV and Sage - there was none. I stopped by on day 1 and day 3 and both days there was nobody from BTV to bee seen at their stand. I played around a little bit with it (BTV) and I am not impressed - same old with a new name (I am glad I sold my copy).

As for availability of a beta: I am told it should be available within a few weeks (about 2 weeks but I would never hold them to that). Unlike some of the whiners here I know what is involved to get a beta released and constant asking does not make anything faster. They will release it when it's ready, period.

[nielm]

Just to conclusivly refute:
3a) You can't use your computer as a computer while watching TV shows without degrading the quality of the recording.

This weekend, my Sage Set-top-box (a Via EPIA M-10000 -- equivalent power to a mere 600Mhz Celeron) was:
* Ripping and encoding a batch of cds->MP3's
* recording a couple of TV shows
* playing back a previously recorded show
* occasional web-browsing
* being the SMTP/IMAP mail server for my home network
all at the same time, without any noticable reduction in quality (dropped frames etc)...

Note -- I do make sure Sage runs at AboveNormal priority...

[escher]

>
> * being the SMTP/IMAP mail server for my home network
>

First post I've made on these boards and it's off topic... sorry about that.

I'm thinking of doing this as well and am currently running XP Home. If you don't mind me asking what package are you using for SMTP/IMAP? I'd love to find a relatively straightforward and inexpensive (free would be nice) way to do this under XP.

Thanks!

[fasttech]

Did anyone get any screenshots or get a look at the OSD for program information while viewing the TV? Is it sweet looking? Or any other screenshots to tide us all over until the beta would be appreciated too.

Also did Dan or Jeff give any indication of when or if they were planning on adding the Tivo-like FFW/REW since apparently it hasn't been added yet?

[BigGator]

Escher...
I'm mostly a Microsoft guy (on the desktops - and obviously my HTPC).. but for mail, take any old crappy box you have lying around (anything over about a P133 will be fine) and install Redhat 7.3 or higher...
I have an older Dell box (TINY little Optiplex) that runs as my home mail server... as well as a SPAM filter (using SpamAssassin).. it's all free - and not terribly difficult to set up anymore.

The benefits here? All free - and you get to re-use some junk old hardware!
"-)

[nielm]

escher:
Cygwin ... with EXIM as the smtp server and Cygwin's inetd running uw-imapd. Both as services under Win2000.

Slightly confusing to configure, with minimal documentation, but I am a unix admin at work, and was able to figure most of it out.

BigGator: I already had one PC which was up 24/7, could not see the point of setting up another -- and I gave my last 'spare' machine away!

[escher]

nielm and BigGator:

Thanks! I actually do have an old box that has Linux installed on it, which I intended to make into a mail server and do other things -- and then I got the HTPC bug so all my energies went towards building a totally new awesome machine -- which as nielm points out is on 24/7 anyway. (run on sentence...argh) The Linux box wasn't getting used much and it is a pretty crappy old machine so I'm somewhat hesitant to trust all of my email to it.

I'm not a unix admin at all (mostly do java development these days) but I have installed cygwin at work just to play with. Wasn't sure if it was the best way to go for an imap server but I might give it a try.

Thanks again.

[David Lawrance]

Aren't wired networks that use the AC wiring relatively slow, even slower than wireless G?

Why aren't cable distribution systems that use existing cable TV feeds being used more for PCTVs?

[stanger89]

If you mean the systems that use say Ch 3 on to distribute video there are a couple of reasons I wouldn't use it. For one, all the displays are linked, each one shows the same thing. Second, RF is the worst way to transmit video, S-Video is much better, and in my case won't accept anything less than component.

Lack of independence between displays is the biggie though, when I set up my whole-house system, I want each client to independent, capable of accessing any media I have stored.

[David Lawrance]

RF would be one thing, but my cable currently distributes cable modem, digital cable, and who knows what else in addition to 60-some standard TV signals. Surely, somewhere in there is enough unregulated bandwidth to transmit several digital programs to distribute over the house from a server, or back and forth over a peer sort of arrangement.