Thinking of updating my Sage Box

[m1abrams]

Originally Posted by Slipshod

I have a friend using it for SD and DVD streaming to the HTPC in his bedroom, but no HD. Doesn't have constant usage since it's the bedroom one, but he's been running it a long time without issue. How far (straight-line) would the wireless link be, and how many walls (and what material) would it go through?

How much bandwidth do you really need to be able to stream HD? Would 40Mbps of real throughput (i.e. measured by an FTP transfer) work fine? 11n will do 150Mbps+ at close range, but if you only need 40-50 you'll be able to get a pretty decent range out of it.

I would think 40Mbps would be more than sufficient for a single HD stream. The closest I can get the AP and bridge would be about 15 feet, through a single floor of hardwood floor (oak with plywood subfloor) and then drywall.

[Slipshod]

Originally Posted by m1abrams

I would think 40Mbps would be more than sufficient for a single HD stream. The closest I can get the AP and bridge would be about 15 feet, through a single floor of hardwood floor (oak with plywood subfloor) and then drywall.

15ft through a floor should be no problem at all. You should get over 100Mbps at that close of a range, unless you've got lead paint. Just make sure it supports and is configured for 5GHz so you avoid interference with Microwave Ovens, Bluetooth, Xbox 360s, PS3s, Wii, 2.4GHz phones, baby monitors, cordless speakers, etc... Neighbors can be a pain with baby-monitors if you're in a close-packed development.

On the 5GHz band you really only need to worry about phones. Most of them run in the 5.8GHz band though (up near channels 161-165), so if you set your system to use channels 44-48 (40Mhz mode eats two adjacent channels) the phone won't interfere at all. The default channels are probably 36-40, but I usually try to avoid defaults figuring the neighbors are more likely to leave things defaulted.

If you're seriously thinking about it, try to look for reviews on amazon, dsl reports, newegg, etc... to make sure nobody is having software problems with them. Failling that, buy them from somebody with a good return policy in case they have some serious issues.

And on a side-note, 802.11n is in "draft" release, not official release. Products out are generally draft-2, and draft-3 was retified a few months back. The standard settled down before draft-1 was ratified, so interoperability is really good. I haven't had problems with draft-2 gear interoperating, and most of the draft-2 client adapters I've tried work fine with draft-1 equipment. Products labeled "Pre-N" should be avoided at all costs, they will only work with themselves and can be hard to figure out which chips are in a given product. The Wi-fi Alliance (marketing group promoting wifi interoperability and selling the "WPA" logo) has standardized on draft-2, so it's pretty darn safe as far as future proofing goes.

Cheers,
Slipshod

P.S. And if anybody ever has questions about Wifi feel free to ask me. I don't know the consumer gear that well as far as specific configuration screens, but I know most 802.11 things inside out. I've been living and breathing it for almost 6 years now.

[m1abrams]

Appreciate the info. I will probably wait a few months before investing in 802.11n. Hopefully by then a few other people on Sage will have experience with it working for them If not, then I will be the Guinna pig.

[fyodor]

I've had really excellent experiences the NIM100 (ethernet over home coax). I'm pretty sure that it would work as well as ethernet. I've seen people getting 60-80 mbit/s. I use mine with pair of Tivo S3s. It tops off the Tivo's ethernet speed (because of DRM processing issues the S3s don't really go above 30-35 mbit/s even with ethernet). It's always rock solid and I have a messy setup with lots of splitters, amps, etc.

[Slipshod]

Originally Posted by fyodor

I've had really excellent experiences the NIM100 (ethernet over home coax). I'm pretty sure that it would work as well as ethernet. I've seen people getting 60-80 mbit/s. I use mine with pair of Tivo S3s. It tops off the Tivo's ethernet speed (because of DRM processing issues the S3s don't really go above 30-35 mbit/s even with ethernet). It's always rock solid and I have a messy setup with lots of splitters, amps, etc.

Ok, that's really damn cool. Thanks for the info, I may have to pick up a couple of these.

[m1abrams]

Originally Posted by fyodor

I've had really excellent experiences the NIM100 (ethernet over home coax). I'm pretty sure that it would work as well as ethernet. I've seen people getting 60-80 mbit/s. I use mine with pair of Tivo S3s. It tops off the Tivo's ethernet speed (because of DRM processing issues the S3s don't really go above 30-35 mbit/s even with ethernet). It's always rock solid and I have a messy setup with lots of splitters, amps, etc.

I love all of the suggestions, and I really hate shooting them down. But my house is ~40 years old. The only coax is to the one TV room . I really need to invest the time to rip some walls apart and install ethernet to a few rooms! Course that also requires approval from the wife which the few times I brought it up it did not meet with high thoughts.

[fyodor]

Slipshod you can find the NIM-100s on ebay. Basically my understanding is that they were originally used in Fios installations, but Verizon upgraded to STBs with integrated capacity, so they their overstock to liquidators. It's one of the few networking products that's easy. You plug them in on either end and they're good to go.

m1abrams, you may want to give powerilne another try, depending on when you first tried it out. It's my understanding that some of the newer products are a little more resilient in terms of home size, setup, etc.

Originally Posted by m1abrams

I love all of the suggestions, and I really hate shooting them down. But my house is ~40 years old. The only coax is to the one TV room . I really need to invest the time to rip some walls apart and install ethernet to a few rooms! Course that also requires approval from the wife which the few times I brought it up it did not meet with high thoughts.

[m1abrams]

Originally Posted by fyodor

Slipshod you can find the NIM-100s on ebay. Basically my understanding is that they were originally used in Fios installations, but Verizon upgraded to STBs with integrated capacity, so they their overstock to liquidators. It's one of the few networking products that's easy. You plug them in on either end and they're good to go.

m1abrams, you may want to give powerilne another try, depending on when you first tried it out. It's my understanding that some of the newer products are a little more resilient in terms of home size, setup, etc.

It has been a number of years since I messed with powerline stuff. I may have to investigate the newer stuff. Maybe swing by Microcenter and grab one to try (they have a great return policy).

[SpiffyRex]

Don't waste time with powerline networking or make sure you can return them. I tested several units earlier this year, including a pair of Panasonic 190Mbps. They were pitiful. It could be something in my house or neighborhood power lines but I doubt it. On the brighter side, I have tested and used 108G and 300n wireless units with the HD extender and had very good results. Decided to go with 108G since I already had a router and was able to get a wireless bridge (D-Link DWL-G820) for $30. But you will only be able to use concurrently only one extender this way. Using two or more at the same time will overwhelm both wireless technologies.

[blade]

I know you have no intentions of using a wired connection, but I fail to see why running a wired connection would be that difficult if the room already has a coax connection. Even if you couldn't get a Cat5 cable run to the room it seems like there would be some location in a basement, closet or spare room where a coax could easily be run and tied into the existing coax so that something like the NIM100 could be used. I've remodeled houses ranging from 40-80 years old so I know the difficulties involved in running electrical wires, coax, cat5, etc.... and I've never had to "rip" out walls to run wiring.

Besides using cat5 or coax to create a wired connection, there are also products that use existing telephone wiring for creating a home network and I've also seen products that uses existing coax to carry a wireless signal. You just connect the coax to your wireless router and then anywhere there is a coax drop in your house you can place a small antenna that is feed from the wireless router via the coax.

I know I've spent far more time fighting with video cards and decoders than it took me to run cat5 throughout my entire house. Good luck with whatever you route you decide to go.

[gilded07]

Originally Posted by SpiffyRex

Don't waste time with powerline networking or make sure you can return them. I tested several units earlier this year, including a pair of Panasonic 190Mbps. They were pitiful. It could be something in my house or neighborhood power lines but I doubt it. On the brighter side, I have tested and used 108G and 300n wireless units with the HD extender and had very good results. Decided to go with 108G since I already had a router and was able to get a wireless bridge (D-Link DWL-G820) for $30. But you will only be able to use concurrently only one extender this way. Using two or more at the same time will overwhelm both wireless technologies.

Success with powerline adapters has far more to do with the way the home is wired than it does the adapters. If you read user reviews on them, you'll see that this is a recurring theme - not that the adapters don't work but that some homes are wired in a way that allows them to work and others are wired in a way that won't allow them to work (I'm not an electrician!). In my research on them, I found reviews from apartment dwellers (where you wouldn't think they would work) who raved about how great they were.

My Linksys PLK-200s work very well (large, 2 story home built in 2000). They don't get the advertised 200mb throughput but they do consistently get 90+ mb/sec throughput and my SD extender works well with them. I bought them at the local electronics store to, as you put it, make sure I could return them. As soon as I found out they worked well, I got a new pair on ebay for half the price. <I give the store a great deal of business so I appreciated them loaning me the adapters >

[Opus4]

Originally Posted by gilded07

I bought them at the local electronics store to, as you put it, make sure I could return them. As soon as I found out they worked well, I got a new pair on ebay for half the price. <I give the store a great deal of business so I appreciated them loaning me the adapters >

"loaning me the adapters": Meaning you returned them & then repurchased the same thing online? I've always felt that if I'm going to buy an item locally instead of online because the local store allows returns, then I'll keep the item if it works. That's the price of returnability, or else the local store may go out of business.

- Andy

[gilded07]

Originally Posted by Opus4

"loaning me the adapters": Meaning you returned them & then repurchased the same thing online? I've always felt that if I'm going to buy an item locally instead of online because the local store allows returns, then I'll keep the item if it works. That's the price of returnability, or else the local store may go out of business.

- Andy

As soon as I posted that, I thought I might get a comment...

Its not something I routinely do, nor is it something I would encourage my kids to do but as soon as I got them working, I went to amazon and ebay and saw how much cheaper the same, new pair were. I couldn't resist the opportunity to go from paying $170 plus tax to paying $80 plus shipping. I justify it <in my twisted mind> by reminding myself that I've spent a lot of money there on items I didn't return and, this isn't a store / chain that is anywhere close to going out of business. But your point / principle is a good one.

[m1abrams]

Originally Posted by blade

I know you have no intentions of using a wired connection, but I fail to see why running a wired connection would be that difficult if the room already has a coax connection. Even if you couldn't get a Cat5 cable run to the room it seems like there would be some location in a basement, closet or spare room where a coax could easily be run and tied into the existing coax so that something like the NIM100 could be used. I've remodeled houses ranging from 40-80 years old so I know the difficulties involved in running electrical wires, coax, cat5, etc.... and I've never had to "rip" out walls to run wiring.

Besides using cat5 or coax to create a wired connection, there are also products that use existing telephone wiring for creating a home network and I've also seen products that uses existing coax to carry a wireless signal. You just connect the coax to your wireless router and then anywhere there is a coax drop in your house you can place a small antenna that is feed from the wireless router via the coax.

I know I've spent far more time fighting with video cards and decoders than it took me to run cat5 throughout my entire house. Good luck with whatever you route you decide to go.

My house is 40 years old. The coax to the tv room comes through via the garage which is the only place of coax in the house. I have investigated wiring the room, it would without question require major drywall work unless I store my servers in a garage that is not heated or cooled and extremely dusty from times since I do some woodwork (very bad idea).

The basement is my best choice however I would need to run the coax to the basement along with the ethernet. In order to do this I would have to cut the wall behind the TV, the ceiling of the basement (finished) and a wall of the basement. While doable, not something I nor the wife want to deal with anytime soon. All this and it would only give me a wired connection between a Sage Server and the TV, it would not connect my network to my office which is on the second floor. Lot of work for what I see as very little gain.

Note I have the new machine built and running. Using the Gigabyte board based on the 780G chip and a Phenom processor. So far it has been working great. Right off the bat it played HD broadcast just fine. Still need to tweak the SD quality, but that is a matter of remember how I tweaked the capture cards and such.

[SpiffyRex]

Success with powerline adapters has far more to do with the way the home is wired than it does the adapters. If you read user reviews on them, you'll see that this is a recurring theme - not that the adapters don't work but that some homes are wired in a way that allows them to work and others are wired in a way that won't allow them to work (I'm not an electrician!). In my research on them, I found reviews from apartment dwellers (where you wouldn't think they would work) who raved about how great they were.

Haven't heard of many success stories with powerline adapters but maybe I haven't done as much research as you. I just figured that if they claim 190Mbps, I should get at least 25Mbps or so. It worked fine in the same room but will get about 2Mbps anywhere else. Tested this in two other houses with similar results. Interesting what you say about working in apartments. Maybe most of the wiring is in a single circuit, under the assumption that apartments will not have as many or as powerful appliances as houses.

The basement is my best choice however I would need to run the coax to the basement along with the ethernet.

I wouldn't put a server there but you could place a network switch or router to connect your wired network. Keep your server in a warmer place.

[m1abrams]

Originally Posted by SpiffyRex

I wouldn't put a server there but you could place a network switch or router to connect your wired network. Keep your server in a warmer place.

Why would you not put a server in the basement? Have you been to many datacenters? Everyone I have worked in has been rather frigid, in fact I generally take a light jacket when I go to our datacenter even in the summer time. My only concern with gear in the basement would be if the basement ever floods and humidity, ours is finished and does not flood. Also nice part about basements is the temperature stays fairly constant year round. Which is why people like to store wine in basements, constant temperature.

I do plan to do the wiring I discuss one day, however I also plan to get the run to the second floor at the same time. However right now the wife has me working on "more" important house projects.

[Djc208]

Originally Posted by m1abrams

I have investigated wiring the room, it would without question require major drywall work

The basement is my best choice however I would need to run the coax to the basement along with the ethernet. In order to do this I would have to cut the wall behind the TV, the ceiling of the basement (finished) and a wall of the basement.

I lucked out in that my house is a ranch so all the runs can go through the atic and drop down into the wall easily. Other than crawling around in the attic it was fairly easy to rewire.

Then again you get a basement, I miss basements Crawlspaces suck but a basement is just not practical when you live 5 ft above sea level. Better than a slab though.

[m1abrams]

Originally Posted by Djc208

I lucked out in that my house is a ranch so all the runs can go through the atic and drop down into the wall easily. Other than crawling around in the attic it was fairly easy to rewire.

Then again you get a basement, I miss basements Crawlspaces suck but a basement is just not practical when you live 5 ft above sea level. Better than a slab though.

Basements are nice, I actually wish though that the previous homeowner had left it unfinished or at least a left some of it unfinished. We really do not need the extra living space and if it were unfinished it would be easier to re-wire at least the first floor. Note: tearing down walls and leaving them torn down is not really an option my wife liked.

[heffe2001]

Originally Posted by m1abrams

Why would you not put a server in the basement? Have you been to many datacenters? Everyone I have worked in has been rather frigid, in fact I generally take a light jacket when I go to our datacenter even in the summer time. My only concern with gear in the basement would be if the basement ever floods and humidity, ours is finished and does not flood. Also nice part about basements is the temperature stays fairly constant year round. Which is why people like to store wine in basements, constant temperature.

I do plan to do the wiring I discuss one day, however I also plan to get the run to the second floor at the same time. However right now the wife has me working on "more" important house projects.

When I first read his quote, I thought he was talking about putting a switch or router out in your garage (didn't read the part he quoted from you I guess . If it's something you wouldn't mind paying someone to do, most networking/wiring companies can run wire in those type places without tearing up the walls & ceiling.. The place I used to work with did that kind of thing fairly regularly in older homes, and the cost was usually between 80-110/drop (if multiple cables were being run, there was an additional charge for cable, but not for the running of it since it went to the same place)...

[SpiffyRex]

Why would you not put a server in the basement? Have you been to many datacenters? Everyone I have worked in has been rather frigid, in fact I generally take a light jacket when I go to our datacenter even in the summer time.

B/s the worst enemy of disk drives is the temperature fluctuation that they go thru when spinning down, cooling off to the cold room temperature, then warming up when they spin back on. If you must put a server in a basement, or any other cold environment, keep it running 24x7 and make sure the drives don't spin down. That's why they do on the few datacenters I have seen in the past. They keep the room cool to make sure disk drives an other electronics don't overheat but they keep the drives working all the time. Just my experience, I have heard about other datacenters that spin down the drives as much as possible to save electricity. The company I work for has one of it's datacenters in the floor below my office. A buddy of mine is one of the admins and in the summer he lets me in for a few minutes to cool down after coming back from lunch. It feels sooooo good. Oh, and you are right, the admins keep a rack for jackets.

Also nice part about basements is the temperature stays fairly constant year round. Which is why people like to store wine in basements, constant temperature.

Right, but they are all rather cold. So they are good for storage but not to run delicate mechanical devices like disk drives.