Tips and Tweaks for 780G systems

[brainbone]

Originally Posted by dcardellini

As I haven't used Vista nor Win7, I am unsure of a few things. In XP, WMP is forced to VMR7. VMR7/Overlay looks terrible to me and is a non-option, so Sagetv is set up for VMR9, and therefore is really is not possible to compare Sagetv to WMP (in XP).

I assume that this story is different in Win7? Also, if you Graph a 1080i file, it shows the same exact filters that the Debug Log in Sagetv throws?

In my case, under XP, problems expose themselves equally under both Sagetv and Graphedit, and MPC-HC (setup to fully emulate Sagetv).

WMP in Win7/Vista uses EVR. Using anything but EVR in vista/7 will generally result in tearing, lack of DXVA, etc.

I had trouble getting any reasonable, consistent, HD video quality out of XP with SageTV. If I remember correctly (been awhile) I had to use overlay mode. No hardware acceleration.

Yes, the graph is the same (though I use GraphStudio with vista/7, since I can't seem to find a way to get GraphEdit to use EVR -- must be missing something). The SageTV Demux seems to be better with OTA/QAM Mpeg2 files than Microsoft's Mpeg2 demux -- but when SageTV builds the graph, it seems to be setting something wrong -- and my guess is that it has to do with deinterlacing, since interlaced material is what shows the problem.

Originally Posted by dcardellini

In general, ATI DXVA implementation seems very problematic (at least under XP). When turned on, strange things happen when resumng from standby (on Catalyst latest versions 9.9, 9.10, 9.11). Also, when turned on (even without standby/resume thing), playback sometimes hangs when starting a file, or picture breaks into ugly major pixelation for a period.

So I have to wonder, if/when Sagetv fixes your Win7 problem, and you really start cranking on watching 1080i material often for a period of time, will these same problems I am seeing under XP expose themselves? Or is it an XP implementation issue.

IF SageTV fixes the problem with ATI in Vista/7, I doubt it will fix the problems in XP. I don't think ATI/Nvidia are concentrating much effort on XP. Moving up to 7 probably isn't a bad idea -- but you probably wont gain much until this is resolved. (W7 with EVR will resolve any tearing issue you may be having).

I use S3 "sleep" (system powers most the way down on sleep), and I don't remember having trouble with waking on Cat 9.11. I'm building another ATI client this weekend, and will let you know how it goes.

Originally Posted by dcardellini

Your revelations are pretty shocking to me. It makes me wonder if all of the hardcore users that I see/respect in these forums have thrown towel in and just use the HD200 as a client. How else can one explain the absence of any posts about ATI hardware w/hardware acceleration that is problematic on ALL Windows operating systems AND Sagetv, and probelmatic even without Sagetv under XP?

I don't know how anyone without visual impairment can say, with a straight face, "Interlaced HD material using an ATI graphics card in SageTV looks great!".

Some may think the horrid video quality they see with their ATI/SageTV mix is what they're supposed to see, but with the amount of time and $ I've invested, I have high expectations out of my HTPCs.

I think many have thrown in the towel and moved to HD200s. You see allot of "I've never looked back", "I didn't realize what I was missing" and "the video quality is much better with the HD200" posts.

The truth is, a client PC should have no difficulty matching, and even surpassing, the video quality of the HD200. The HD200s only real selling points should be: simplicity, space, cost and power. Quality of video should not be in the mix.

Originally Posted by dcardellini

Why isn't there a "reference system" (or several) detailed either by Sagetv corporation or posted on these forums that is a minimum required to do what I have to believe are the most basic HTPC duties:

MPEG2-1080i, 720p, 480p dvds
MPEG4- AVC/264 for blu-ray rips and HD-PVR, and lower res mkv downloads
MPEG4- VC-1 for blu-ray rips
MPEG4- xvid/divx

Doesn't that nearly cover it all?

I know that every user has different needs, and has a different focus for the use of their PC. But with HD-OTA mandatory today in usa, playback of 1080i mpeg2 material must be an essential part of any HTPC setup? What am I missing?

SageTV is either stuck in a rut, or busy producing the next big thing. I hope it's the latter.

I don't think exhaustive testing on some basic hardware configurations would be too much to ask. Even if they just develop a consistent testing method and allow the community to post the results.

Originally Posted by dcardellini

Sorry for rant. I just will not give up on using PC clients: I am a minimalist, want the smallest/least power solution with least number of components. The PC IS capable of video and audio perfection. All I want is a TV monitor, a power amp/speakers, and the PC (and preferrably a small one without ANY plug-in cards).

I love SageTV, but will begin looking elsewhere the minute I suspect that they are focusing on hardware clients for their business model, and not putting full resource into a great PC client experience. (sorry...no indication of this yet, but .....follow the money....).

I agree. I don't think we're alone in the general disappointment of SageTV latley (really ever since HD started rolling out).

I like the option of the HD200s, but they're not for me. I've felt like I've been left out in the cold since their release... Hopefully this will be remedied.

[dcardellini]

Thanks for reply to my rant, Brainbone! It is nice to know that I am not alone in my frustration.

On a positive note, (and as a summary), you CAN today get an excellent SageTV experience with an ATI IGP motherboard 780G or 785G for most anything I can find to throw at it, and with a minimal number of added codec/filters.

You need:

1) 780G or 785G motherboard. Sideport memory on the 785G made a minor improvement in tearing, and a 780G with Sideport may be just as good (not tested).

2) Processor

a) You just need to make sure you have enough processor to do it all without DXVA hardware acceleration (I only use DXVA with VC-1...but even that may get turned off once I play a few more VC-1 titles). I have some headroom with an Athlon X2 5000+ (2.6 ghz) and 1080i/780p. However for AVC/264 or VC-1 without DXVA, really need a bit more. Really worried about a Dell Zino 780G with max processor at X2 @1.8Ghz without DXVA even for 1080i/720p material (may have to wait for the Win7/vista solution Brainbone is spearheading).

b) AthlonII or Phenom definitely makes a minor improvement in "tearing" due to faster pipe between processor and IGP.

3) Win XP SP3 (not sure if SP3 important).

4) Catalyst 9.8 (if I ditch DXVA with VC-1, then I probably can go to latest 9.11 release as the resume from standby DXVA issue will be moot).

5) Filters/Codecs:

a) Cyberlink MPEG2 decoder (comes with PowerDVD7.3, 8, 9, etc.) Need a tweak to turn DXVA-off. Ask me if interested.

b) Cyberlink AVC/264 Decoder (separate purchase from Cyberlink, or register an earlier version 7.3 filter). Need a tweak to turn DXVA-off. Ask me if interested.

c) MPC Decoder (use only VC-1 filter)

d) Haali Splitter

6) Sagetv Setup for VMR9 in video and dvd setup. Defaults for ALL other settings. FSE=off. "always_use_dshow_player=true" in sagetvclient.properties.

******************

Could the deinterlacing of 1080i material be better with this setup? Not sure. Quick check against a discrete ATI 4670 card did not prove this out, but with more time to play...could be.

*****************

As soon as SageTV fixes the Win7/Vista problem you have found, Brainbone, this may ALL change, and we may be able to get full DXVA, stutter and tear free with a teeny CPU on a 780G platform under Vista/Win7 instead of XP.

I have high hopes here, as Renethx over at avsforums has never flagged major problems with the 780G and DXVA, and I believe most of his work/testing has been under Vista/Win7.

Now that my head is deep into this, really tempted to get an nVidia 8200 IGP and repeat my tests. Anyone with experience there?

[DON3k]

Originally Posted by emverham

Can anyone recommend a simple OTA HD card?

I was using a DVICO Fusion 5 Value (or maybe it was called Lite) PCI card for OTA HD with no issues at all in HD. Not saying it's the greatest card, but it worked fine. It does not do QAM via Sage, however, Only HD OTA. But it tuned fine and never really gave me issues in Sage at all.

There's one on ebay right now for $10

[dcardellini]

Brainbone:

Given that the big problem with 1080i on Vista/Win7 is with Sagetv playing nice with Windows' own MPEG decoder, I forgot to ask you if you tried any other MPEG2 decoders (Like Cyberlink SP)?

I re-read your stuff, and noticed: Hey the Microsoft Decoder works with VMC, WMP, and Graph Studio. Humm......

Wonder if it works with, say VLC or MPC-HC...non-microsoft products?

Gee...that would be a big surprise if MSoft's decoder only works with MSoft products, eh?

[brainbone]

I think VLC uses it's own decoders... GraphStudio is non-mircosoft (GraphEdit is MS).

I can also get quality 1080i video using the default SageTV decoder, but only in GraphStudio by tweaking a few settings.

I didn't notice any difference in behavior on the Cyberlink Decorders, other than HD H264 doesn't seem to work in the newer versions. Don't see any real reason for the Cyberlink decoders.

I think it all really boils down to SageTV. I'm wondering if a faster platform (2GHz HT link vs. 1Ghz, for example) might be masking this issue for some -- possibly allowing the CPU to pick-up the slack when SageTV is requesting the wrong deinterlacing mode -- maybe why some people see it, and others claim they don't? (just a very wild guess here)

[dcardellini]

Originally Posted by brainbone

I use S3 "sleep" (system powers most the way down on sleep), and I don't remember having trouble with waking on Cat 9.11. I'm building another ATI client this weekend, and will let you know how it goes.

Hopeful that you have positive results here. To clarify what I see in XP: Set DXVA (in Catalyst 9.9, 9.10, or 9.11). Verify low cpu use in Task Manager.

Standby to S3, then resume. Playback same file and check CPU use in Task Manager. Under XP, CPU will shoot way back up as if not running DXVA (even though all "checkboxes" say DXVA).

This also happens in isolation with PowerDVD playing blu-ray disks. Keep an eye on Task Manager CPU use.

I could not believe that I was experiencing this, and NEVER read any posts about it. After much Googling, I found this:

http://forums.guru3d.com/showthread.php?t=309413

According to this poster he had SAME problem in XP and Win7-64. Don't think he tested Vista and Win7-32...but I would not hold my breath.

If you find it IS broken, then I will be blown away that there are not many posts on HTPC sites about a very popular chipset IGP doing what any serious Home Theater PC will likely do......go to S3 rapidly, and rapidly come alive when the TV remote is pressed.

[Polypro]

I'm all for not dumping toxic sludge down sewer drains...but my HTPC runs 24/7. My 780G rig has always been a PITA, better since I threw a 7600GT in it...but still finicky.

P

[tmsage]

Originally Posted by dcardellini

Hopeful that you have positive results here. To clarify what I see in XP: Set DXVA (in Catalyst 9.9, 9.10, or 9.11). Verify low cpu use in Task Manager.

Standby to S3, then resume. Playback same file and check CPU use in Task Manager. Under XP, CPU will shoot way back up as if not running DXVA (even though all "checkboxes" say DXVA).

This also happens in isolation with PowerDVD playing blu-ray disks. Keep an eye on Task Manager CPU use.

I could not believe that I was experiencing this, and NEVER read any posts about it. After much Googling, I found this:

http://forums.guru3d.com/showthread.php?t=309413

According to this poster he had SAME problem in XP and Win7-64. Don't think he tested Vista and Win7-32...but I would not hold my breath.

If you find it IS broken, then I will be blown away that there are not many posts on HTPC sites about a very popular chipset IGP doing what any serious Home Theater PC will likely do......go to S3 rapidly, and rapidly come alive when the TV remote is pressed.

I'm having a similar problem with a HIS 4670. I had DXVA working for 6 months until DXVA stopped working and all I got was a black screen. I sent the card to the supplier who test it and said that it worked on their test system. I plugged into my PC and DXVA worked again for 3 days and stopped again!

Very frustrating Even rebooting won't enable DXVA again. How did you resolve your problem?

[dcardellini]

My issue was that DXVA would stop working after resume from standby. It would always work after a reboot. This was with IGP. Don't remember whether I tested when I plugged in my discrete 4670.

By using an earlier version of Catalyst 9.8, then DXVA was stable, and seemed to work under all situations.

However, remember, in my setup, DXVA was inferior to no-DXVA. That is the main point of my rant. Neither IGP nor discrete 4670 could do DXVA on 1080i material without stuttering. Therefore, I had to turn DXVA off, and ensure that I have enough CPU to handle decoding for all situations.