SageTV and online content - hulu, netflix ...

[SWKerr]

I came to SageTV from BeyondTV recently and used MCE before that. I have played with MCE again with Vista earlier in the year to see how it worked with the Xbox360. I have also played around with MythTV a little as well. In my opinion SageTV is the best option. If you only care about only TV then BeyondTV is a good option but it does not offer the overall Media experience you can get from Sage.

MCE with the Xbox360 is the closest thing to the SageTV/extender model. The Xbox360 by itself is ackward for media playback without MCE. (I don’t understand why they can’t just play something from a network share without having to use MCE or anther extender tool.) If you like MCE then the Xbox360 is just like MCE once you connect. The real problem with MCE is that it is slow to adapt to new technologies and hardware and is very Microsoft centric for how to setup and manage content. (The DRM part sucks as well) Apple is not really much better in this regard. (Really why can’t both of them use common stands for stuff like music playlists) You can also forget about Entertainment industry no, no’s like adskip and DVD\BluRay rip playback.

With Sage even if you don’t like the SageTV interface (which I don’t), a reasonably tech savvy person can install SageMC and customize it in about any way that suits them. The user community has been very active in adding useful toys to the basic product and Sage does a good job at fostering this community.

As for Online Content…

Lack of online support is really the only reason I would not move to the extender. I now have HTPCs on each of the HD sets and like the ability to surf the web form the couch but could live without that if the extenders could do Netflix and Hulu.

I have been using online content more and more over the previous few months. I like the Netlfix stuff especially since they added all the decent content recently. There are a lot of classic movies that the kids like and the older TV episodes are nice as well. I have also used Hulu more than I would have thought as well. SageTV recording are by far the best experience overall but on occasion something starts late (Sporting event delay, Presidential speech) and I don’t get something fully recorded. I also might try something several episode into the season and want to catch up if I like it. Just about all network content is available online now. Occasional YouTube can also be funny\entertaining as well but there is really too much there, it is like content overload and much of it sucks.

I have to agree with most folks that Sage is not really late to the party here compared to anyone else.

For me the Netflix plug-in has been great. I really like the ability to download the content first. Netflix just works and looks good playing back content. I hope the HD content will also be supported when available. The YouTube and other online providers in sage seem to work well too. They are easy to navigate via the remote and playback well in the Sage interface. The main problem with both of these is content overload. There is so much there I end up using a browser to search for what I want and then go into Sage to find and play it on the TV. I don’t think this problem would be solved by any other player. I can’t wait to see how the Xbox handles it. (Note: Netfix does not really play back on the extender)

As for non supported sites like Hulu, I don’t know of anything that really works for everything. The studios and networks have not agreed on any common DRM or technology and they all seem to have some kind of annoying issue at this point even with the browser deployments. Heck I sit thru a reasonable amount of adds but I am sure they will push it beyond that at some time. The key for me is not having to sit there with a keyboard in my lap. I have tired Playon on the Xbox360 and it navigates and plays back ok but the quality does not appear to be as good as what I get directly from Hulu or the like. I also suspect that it is somewhat rogue and will be subject to outages when the sources change. Even Hulu seems to be just a launching point for some content. ABC really seems to do their own thing and looks and works completely different than the Fox stuff launched form Hulu. I have been catching up on Lost in HD and I find the picture quality to be good but am annoyed by having to click on play after every add. This does not happen on normal Hulu content. I really think that any network would sign you up if you paid for content or could guarantee people couldn’t skip the adds. Sage’s best bet is to support something like Playon and let them deal with the DRM and content changes. There is probably potential for a Playon Plug-in even without Sage support. I seriously doubt any other provider will reliably support any of these in the near term as well.

[Hari_Seldon]

To clarify - I'm not trying to compare all SageTV features to other STB's/SW. I think that is well covered elsewhere (and Sage excels). I'm proposing that online content is available now, and will become better and more available soon. I'm questioning how/when SageTV will adapt to this.

EvilPenguin makes some great points - I agree that Sage is not in the same position as M$ or Apple -> where they can create their own content store (like itunes) to enhance their hardware capability.

However, it is in the interest of non-hardware attached content vendors like Netflix and Amazon to work with as many platforms as possible. This should work in SageTV's favor - as long as they can build compliant HW/SW for accessing said content.

Hopefully the content owners (NBC, BBC, etc.) will improve their online access and enable non-browser viewing. This is obviously outside of the control of SageTV.

I said SageTV is lagging because it only allows access to Youtube natively (by my reading of the feature list). This is not a source of mainstream content (although MacGyver episodes are nice). Someone mentioned a Netflix plugin for SageTV - but I think this requires cabling a PC video output back to a capture card? In any case - it's not natively supported at the extender. Other platforms directly support Netflix, Amazon, or a proprietary media store. Hence SageTV is lagging.

Again - EvilPenguin presents some good options of how SageTV might evolve to include access to online content. The 'Streaming only' option is the direction I suggested in the OP, but this is further out (5+ yrs). The 'Streaming/Recording Hybrid' is the solution I'd like in the near term. Perhaps weighing this capability vs. other SageTV/HD Extender feature requests is best left to another topic.

I think it's pretty clear that SageTV is excellent at being a networked PVR, which is most important today (I'll buy it for this). PVR capability will be most important as long as the broadcast TV model (and analog hole) exists - which could be a very long time.

I'd just rather not ignore another fat pipe of content (the internet) which seems to be growing in popularity and capability. SageTV seems like a great platform to provide access to both.

[tmiranda]

OK, I'll chime in here. My family uses Sage to watch all things video. (Wife, 7 year old boy, 9 year old girl.) They do not care where it comes from or how it gets to the TV, they just want to watch shows they are interested in.

The more sources available to Sage the better. When my kids choose "Pokemon" they should just see a list of what's available and not care about where it comes from. When they press "Play", well .. you get the idea.

[stanger89]

Originally Posted by Hari_Seldon

I said SageTV is lagging because it only allows access to Youtube natively (by my reading of the feature list). This is not a source of mainstream content (although MacGyver episodes are nice).

Frankly, SageTV's main hardware rival, the PopcornHour, doesn't support much that Sage doesn't.

Someone mentioned a Netflix plugin for SageTV - but I think this requires cabling a PC video output back to a capture card? In any case - it's not natively supported at the extender. Other platforms directly support Netflix, Amazon, or a proprietary media store. Hence SageTV is lagging.

Other platforms that offer these services lag far, far behind Sage/HD100 in terms of supporting the media you already have. AppleTV only supports mp4/QT content, and only up to 720p. Netflix is only available on players with very limited content support. Tivo doesn't support external media that well.

They've really got different priorities. What we see is the relatively closed/proprietary players including support for their closed proprietary streaming systems, and then people like Sage and PopcornHour offering much greater support for media you already have.

Again - EvilPenguin presents some good options of how SageTV might evolve to include access to online content. The 'Streaming only' option is the direction I suggested in the OP, but this is further out (5+ yrs). The 'Streaming/Recording Hybrid' is the solution I'd like in the near term. Perhaps weighing this capability vs. other SageTV/HD Extender feature requests is best left to another topic.

It really wouldn't be too hard, UPnP DLNA support would allow the use of PlayOn inside Sage for example.

I think it's pretty clear that SageTV is excellent at being a networked PVR, which is most important today (I'll buy it for this). PVR capability will be most important as long as the broadcast TV model (and analog hole) exists - which could be a very long time.

I'd just rather not ignore another fat pipe of content (the internet) which seems to be growing in popularity and capability. SageTV seems like a great platform to provide access to both.

I don't think anyone's ignoring it, but there are far too many roadblocks at the moment to expect any revelations in the near term I think.

[wayner]

vividweb made a great point that you guys in the US may not be aware of or may not care about - the amount of online content outside of the US is very sparse. Sites like Hulu, Netflix, NBC, etc shut you out if your IP address is from outside the US. Pretty much you only option is a pvr or bittorrent.

One more thing - Sage is great for quickly watching hockey and basketball games. I can watch a game in either sport in less than an hour - saving me about 1.5 hours per game. And you can't really get sports games online.

And as others have mentioned - there is something to be said for having total control over your content with no DRM to allow you to transfer it to a laptop, copy for a friend, etc.

And an Xbox360 is not an option as an extender because it is TOO FREAKIN NOISY!

[SWKerr]

SageTV and PVR are going to be around for quite some time because the infrastructure for how they can work it solid. People like them because they work consistently and easily. I like the ABC HD content but last night my connection was to poor to watch it. Even if it was more consistent Hollywood will probably never make the experience easy and consistent enough for average people to make it their primary service. If you want the equivalent to a PVR experience you will need a Pay Services. Pay TV like Netflix and VOD are the future but the value will have to be better than what people can get today to beat out PVRs.

*********
The noise from a Xbox360 is barely noticeable unless you are playing a game. If it is in a entertainment center you can't hear it at all. If it is that loud then you need a new fan. Try cleaning it with compressed air. That usually works with my PCs.

[wayner]

Originally Posted by SWKerr

The noise from a Xbox360 is barely noticeable unless you are playing a game. If it is in a entertainment center you can't hear it at all. If it is that loud then you need a new fan. Try cleaning it with compressed air. That usually works with my PCs.

I have an Xbox360 Elite which is supposed to be the quietest version but I find it way too noisy - even from day one. It is on a shelf below my 60" TV but there is no door on the shelf.

But I am very picky and use elastic suspenders for hard drives in my PC and I replace the stock fans and CPU coolers with quieter ones.

[ElGato]

Originally Posted by Suntan

I don’t get the negativity that people are throwing out about online content.

-Suntan

What he said. It's all about choice surely?!?

[sainswor99]

Originally Posted by GKusnick

In other words, it's never a question of "Is Sage with X better than Sage without X?" It's always a question of "Given limited dev resources, is Sage with X better than Sage with Y?"

What he said. It's not about whether or not Sage will support online content, it's about WHEN. I think the "negativity" (I prefer "realistic viewpoint") that most of us are positing is that the online infrastructure is immature at this point. Yes, it will grow, and yes, SageTV will need to continue to develop its product to support this if it wants to continue to grow as well. But there are so many other challenges that (IMO) need to be addressed first (like the transition to digital TV, rock solid integration with set-top boxes or cablecard control).

These are exciting times.

[wayner]

And again, you guys in the US may not care about this, but this online content is only accessible from within the US. I don't know what portion of Sage users don't live in the US but adding online content is normally useless to non-American residents. If it was a choice between Sage improving playback of H.264 files or adding online content I say go with the former.

[autoboy]

I've decided that I like SageTV for what it does best. It can record and manage content from multiple sources and serve that content to other TVs in the house. I admit it would be really nice to have more online steaming content available, but I would never be willing to give up the core strengths of SageTV for another solution just to get online streaming.

I have a lot of experience with online streaming. I have a HD extender for my personal content. I have a Roku box for Netflix (and I'm hoping their surprise is Hulu support). I also have a 360 and use it to stream videos on occasion. I have a PS3 for blu and they are now streaming some movies. I also have a AppleTV that I use to stream movies and manage my music. Lastly I have an old laptop connected to my TV for anything I can't get from those services. It is the most fragmented system you have ever seen, but my Harmony One makes it easy to switch around and use each source.

I'm not saying do what I did because it was quite expensive (built up over a long time) but the savings of using a HD extender almost makes this entire system doable for anyone. I've seen people put together HTPCs for $1500 - $2000. Why? I mean, a Athlon X2 and a 4350 are all you need for a HTPC.

Anyways, what I am saying is that because the online content system is so fragmented with proprietary systems, why not shop around and pick one you like. I would recommend the Roku box because it is cheap and Hulu support would take care of most network shows (crossing my fingers for hulu support).

Another thing you could do is to offload all your recorded content to a HD extender(because it is so nice to have a simple box handle all your content), and get yourself a Asus Eee box for web browsing, Hulu, netflix, Pandora, etc. This makes it easy on the Mrs for her Hills episodes, yet, allows you to explore every new service out there, because ultimately all these services are available with web interfaces.

I'm not expecting SageTV to support every service I want to use. It would be nearly impossible considering their small size and limited resources (and if they had all that it would mean evil DRM and look what happened to microsoft. Get big enough and say goodbye to R5000, firewire recording, HD-PVR, or any future stuff without lots of red tape), but I can certainly pick the services I like the best and get those as stand alone services.

[stanger89]

Originally Posted by wayner

I have an Xbox360 Elite which is supposed to be the quietest version but I find it way too noisy - even from day one. It is on a shelf below my 60" TV but there is no door on the shelf.

Even without a game going?

Originally Posted by ElGato

What he said. It's all about choice surely?!?

Give me something reasonably open with good selection and I'll be all over it. I don't see that yet.

[Hari_Seldon]

Lots of great details - I appreciate everyone's thoughts. I agree that PVR features are most important today. I'd keep online content access up on the priority list (over things like Blu-Ray), but that is better left to a poll or another topic. I have to say...

I have a lot of experience with online streaming...

Wow! What are you missing? A Wii and a Tivo? Please post a picture of this setup! Perhaps we can use it to show how DRM and proprietary formats hurt families (WAF stress) as well as the environment (high electric bills).

I love gadgets and all but I'm hoping to avoid this kind of uber-Frankenstein setup.

[wayner]

Originally Posted by stanger89

Even without a game going?

Yes, even without a game going the Xbox 360 is by far the most audible piece of gear in my HT setup which isn't as impressive as autoboy but I do have a 60" Sony LCOS TV (with a fan), an HTPC in a Silverstone LaScala case with 2x60mm case fans + Zalman CPU cooler (passive video card so no fan there), an Xbox 360, a Gateway ADC-220 Connected DVD player, a SA3200 cable box (connected to my HTPC), a SA8300HD cable PVR (with an additional external hard drive) and a Yamaha HTR 6160 Receiver.

[autoboy]

Originally Posted by Hari_Seldon

Wow! What are you missing? A Wii and a Tivo? Please post a picture of this setup! Perhaps we can use it to show how DRM and proprietary formats hurt families (WAF stress) as well as the environment (high electric bills).

I love gadgets and all but I'm hoping to avoid this kind of uber-Frankenstein setup.

Well, actually I have a Wii and a Tivo as well. The Tivo is a busted series 1 but was my first DVR and the Wii can't do any video so I didn't include it. I guess the only major streaming box I don't have is teh Vudu. It doesn't do itunes music like the Apple so I went with the apple. My wife uses iTunes. Poor thing...

Actually, my setup works quite well and it all fits nicely in my Ethan Allen entertainment center. I'll see if I can get a picture. It is a beautiful room with Axiom m60s, vp100, qs8, SVSPB12-NSD, Onkyo 875 and all those sources I described.

Many of them don't get used that often, like the Roku because I watched everything good already and I prefer DVD or Blu-ray for movies. The 360 takes too long to download a HD movie but does SD quite nicely compared to the AppleTV. The appleTV gets used all the time because it just handles music, photos, and streaming video better than anything else I have. I'm trying to get XBMC on it but I need a mac to make the USB key for hacking. Sometimes you just want a movie now and you don't want to wait for netflix. The Apple is good for that. The PS3 is a Blu-ray player only. I have no games. (actually I just sold it to my brother and got a LG200 SuperBlu but I didn't think that needed to complicate the post i did before. I kinda want by PS3 back because the superblu doesn't open the tray until it is fully booted so you stand there waiting to put in the disk wondering why you sold your PS3 except that the PS3 was noisy)

This is all controlled by a Harmony One which is possibly the greatest remote ever except for the lack of RF. It all works very well and one of the benefits of it is that I don't need to take down my HTPC to add new features only to break something else. Everytime i fiddled with my HTPC it would set everyone back. Now that everything is separate one can go down and nobody cares or I can fiddle with the Roku and leave Sage alone.

[autoboy]

Originally Posted by wayner

Yes, even without a game going the Xbox 360 is by far the most audible piece of gear in my HT setup which isn't as impressive as autoboy but I do have a 60" Sony LCOS TV (with a fan), an HTPC in a Silverstone LaScala case with 2x60mm case fans + Zalman CPU cooler (passive video card so no fan there), an Xbox 360, a Gateway ADC-220 Connected DVD player, a SA3200 cable box (connected to my HTPC), a SA8300HD cable PVR (with an additional external hard drive) and a Yamaha HTR 6160 Receiver.

I don't really hear my 360 unless there is a game in it. It is an original launch box. It is there but barely. I also have a 60" Sony LcOS. What a sweet TV and you can't beat the price for 60." Too bad they don't make them anymore. I would say the TV is louder than the 360 at least in my house.

[jrog]

I too have a "hybrid system", as I find that when something does what it does so much better than alternatives, I just can't bring myself to make sacrifices. I have Sage exclusively for typical DVR usage, and only use it to record stuff off of TV.

I use the AppleTV for iTunes Music, my movie library (all M4V), rentals and TV show purchases.

I have an XBox 360 for casual gaming, and now, hopefully for Netflix streaming, although I have just about everything they provide streaming.

lately, I'm thinking that Boxee is worth taking a look at, I like the social aspect of connecting with my brothers that live in other parts of the country and focusing solely on the streaming aspect of it, CBS, Hulu, Comedy Central. I know it will integrate with my music and video library's, but that's what I have my AppleTV for. In fact, there is a hack for the AppleTV to load Boxee, but I'm not super excited about hacks for long term solutions.

Basically, I'm getting to the point where I want to shift from subscribing to cable and premium cable channels to just basic cable, and internet/iTunes for everything else.

I feel like I'm getting ripped off, especially when shows I want on HBO and Showtime end up costing so much month after month. I could just as easily wait and buy them on HD from Apple... Dexter is my #1, and the older seasons are HD from Apple at the price of about 2 months of Showtime service.

For me, I don't want a lot of overlap, and so if I can get all the content I want in another way and save money overall, then that will be the direction I take.

[autoboy]

I could never give up the quality of HD feeds from Discovery, History, etc. When you have a 60" TV 11' from your face, anything streamed looks like garbage with the exception of the paid HD feeds on AppleTV, Sony PS3, or xbox360. However, with Netflix only $20 a month I would be stupid to rent more than 1 movie a month from those services. It is to the point that I hardly use them. Quality is much too important to me to watch anything serious on Hulu or Netflix (non-HD)

[jrog]

Too each his own, that's what so great about having choices... for me, the must watch content is on the major networks, so 75% of what I make time for and watch is on those few channels in the lowest price bracket. The rest, I can get elsewhere, and I'll likely buy the BSG final episodes on Apple in HD, and without commercials and all that, it will be great. I mean, South Park episodes streaming are every bit as good as they are recorded at 8-13 MBit through an HD-PVR, IMO.

Also, most of the HD on those channels like Discovery and USA and what not isn't all that great. Comcast doesn't exactly provide the highest quality feed, or the content itself isn't great. I'm also perfectly happy on my 50" tv with the upconvert capability of AppleTV on Standard def, and XBox on DVDs.

I also consider myself to be one of those people that will never buy a Blu-Ray player, even though, it will be higher quality, it's not worth the trouble, lack of convenience, and cost of a new device.

Again, to each his own. I dream of the one box that does everything I want, but sadly, it doesn't exist, and likely never will. The solution, multiple boxes (more money, more complicated) or compromises (lack of features).

EDIT: Oh, and I can make my own, but not much point considering I have no sway with the content providers and DRM.

[pjpjpjpj]

Seems like I am one of the few who use SageTV ONLY via HD Extender... and that poses a problem for me. Unlike most here, I don't have a PC "handy" at all times. My Sage server is in a dark corner of the basement and our "family" PC is a laptop in the study, and is off/hibernating unless my wife or I are actively using it. I realize this makes me an "out of touch archaic old dinosaur" to most of you, but anyway....

That said, there are times when I want to watch something that is available only on the internet. Some networks have TV shows that are internet-exclusive. I would occasionally like to watch an old South Park episode. There are plenty of sporting events streaming at places like channelsurfing.net (my alma mater rarely plays on national TV but most of our games are on that site).

Anyway, the only way I can watch those things is to go sit in front of my laptop, or drag it in and hold it in my lap in the family room. And it seems silly to watch streaming video on a little laptop screen when I have a nice big HDTV sitting in the same room. I've done the VGA-cable hookup from the laptop to the TV, which works, but it's just a bunch of steps. So why can't this stuff be accessible through the Extender?

I don't even necessarily want to be able to record it - just watch it. Give me some interface where I could enter a URL (or even have them pre-programmed in a file, similar to the "custom online services"), and it would just start streaming the video through the Extender. I wouldn't even care if my TV screen had to be filled with the website page and the video just streaming in an inset window. I just want to be able to watch streaming stuff through the Extender, on my TV instead of my laptop screen.