![]() |
|
General Discussion General discussion about SageTV and related companies, products, and technologies. |
![]() |
|
Thread Tools | Search this Thread | Display Modes |
#21
|
||||
|
||||
Quote:
Gerry
__________________
Big Gerr _______ Server - WHS 2011: Sage 7.1.9 - 1 x HD Prime and 2 x HDHomeRun - Intel Atom D525 1.6 GHz, Acer Easystore, RAM 4 GB, 4 x 2TB hotswap drives, 1 x 2TB USB ext Clients: 2 x PC Clients, 1 x HD300, 2 x HD-200, 1 x HD-100 DEV Client: Win 7 Ultimate 64 bit - AMD 64 x2 6000+, Gigabyte GA-MA790GP-DS4H MB, RAM 4GB, HD OS:500GB, DATA:1 x 500GB, Pace RGN STB. |
#22
|
|||
|
|||
I prefer not to use shadow copy for BIG video files. I'm fine with it for others.
I don't get how WHS protects from drive failure without software shadow copy on EVERY file and file system and directory (as in RAID1). How is this done? Yes, RAID1 isn't controller agnostic as I understand. But I don't know of another practical way to protect from drive failure for my 100 or so big video files where most of those files are deleted within days and new ones rotate in. My smaller non-video files are well backed up with SecondCopy and/or TruImage and/or Drive cloning. |
#23
|
||||
|
||||
Quote:
I think the point gplasky was making is that he doesn't protect these recording files. I don't either, if I loose some recordings due to a drive failure it's not a huge deal for me. Before I went with WHS I used RAID 1 for security, but only on the system and shared files drive. My recording drives were not protected. My only problem with WHS is that there's no built-in way to protect your system drive and the Sage files on it. There are add-on solutions for this but by default I can't have WHS keep a duplicate of my wiz.bin file.
__________________
Server: Core 2 Duo E4200 2 GB RAM, nVidia 6200LE, 480 GB in pool, 500GB WHS backup drive, 1x750 GB & 1x1TB Sage drives, Hauppage HVR-1600, HD PVR, Windows Home Server SP2 Media center: 46" Samsung DLP, HD-100 extender. Gaming: Intel Core2 Duo E7300, 4GB RAM, ATI HD3870, Intel X-25M G2 80GB SSD, 200 & 120 GB HDD, 23" Dell LCD, Windows 7 Home Premium. Laptop: HP dm3z, AMD (1.6 GHz) 4 GB RAM, 60 GB OCZ SSD, AMD HD3200 graphics, 13.3" widescreen LCD, Windows 7 x64/Sage placeshifter. |
#24
|
|||
|
|||
I did that for a long time - no backup of big MPEG recordings. Then I got to thinking about the WAF impact would be of a drive failure. That, and when 500GB disks got really cheap, is when I put RAID1 in for the MPEG files. And tossed in a small partition on the same drive-pair for booting Windows XP.
A few really important MPEG files (traditional holiday shows, key birthday parties, etc) are copied to a USB drive, but these are few. So that's why I wonder why WHS is a good thing for Sage. I suppose (?) WHS could use an external eSATA RAID box. But this costs a lot more than just RAID1 inside the PC with motherboard RAID. And it's another box/fan/power supply to impact the overall MTBF (failure rate). Last edited by stevech; 08-06-2009 at 10:23 PM. |
#25
|
||||
|
||||
I would use something like FlexRAID, WHS' built-in duplication, or an alternative backup solution, such as Cobian Backup, in order to back up just the critical recordings to another drive which isn't part of the WHS drive pool. All three of these solutions require no additional hardware (beyond the drive) and the data would be fully accessible via any computer using the latter two solutions.
__________________
Server: XP, SuperMicro X9SAE-V, i7 3770T, Thermalright Archon SB-E, 32GB Corsair DDR3, 2 x IBM M1015, Corsair HX1000W PSU, CoolerMaster CM Storm Stryker case Storage: 2 x Addonics 5-in-3 3.5" bays, 1 x Addonics 4-in-1 2.5" bay, 24TB Client: Windows 7 64-bit, Foxconn G9657MA-8EKRS2H, Core2Duo E6600, Zalman CNPS7500, 2GB Corsair, 320GB, HIS ATI 4650, Antec Fusion Tuners: 2 x HD-PVR (HTTP tuning), 2 x HDHR, USB-UIRT Software: SageTV 7 |
#26
|
||||
|
||||
Quote:
Also, say you had a large folder on another PC you wanted to backup (350GB) Could you throw that 350GB onto an external drive and copy it to the WHS thereby eliminating the need to send 350GB over the network? It would then only add the incremental changes? |
#27
|
|||
|
|||
Quote:
I'm pretty sure you can't copy the 350GB folder to an existing backup on the WHS machine and have it resume backing up from the remote machine for future backups. You would either have to let WHS do it for you over the network or you would have to maintain the backup of that folder yourself by some other means. If you've got gigabit ethernet, just let WHS back it up over the network...the initial backups may take a long time, but future backups will go much quicker.
__________________
--Jason Server Hardware: GIGABYTE GA-EP45-UD3R, Intel Q9550 CPU 2.83GHz, 11GB RAM, 1xHDHR, 1xHVR1600, 1xHVR2250 29TB Server Storage: 1TB SSD (OS), 1TB (data), 2x6TB+2x10TB (22TB FlexRaid storage pool), 2x2TB (recordings), 1x750GB (VMs). Server Software: Win10 Pro x64 OS, SageTV 64bit v9.2.0.441, Java 1.8 u241, PlayOn, Comskip (Donator) v0.82.003, WampServer v2.5. Clients: 3xHD300s, 2xHD100, 2xPlaceshifters |
#28
|
||||
|
||||
Has anyone ever tried taking a disk image of the C drive (boot) and D drive (tombstones) with an imaging product like Ghost, Acronis, PING, etc that can create an image from a boot CD, outside of the WHS operating system?
The imaging process might work, but I don't know if the recovery would work because you would restore the C and D drives, but the pool would be different, and maybe the WHS operating system wouldn't be able to function after the recovery. There should be some easy way to recover the WHS system (if it fails), since it is needed to recover other systems. Dave |
#29
|
||||
|
||||
You can't image D: because of the tombstones. Anytime a file is copied a tombstone is created. The minute a file is copied to the pool the image is out of sync. If you ever restored it without the tombstones you cannot reach those files through the pool share. Also the backup database changes every night a backup is done. Imaging th C: partition shouldn't be an issue. I just haven't gotten around to testing it. As long as your imaging software boots to an OS and then creates the image, being on a server OS shouldn't matter.
Gerry
__________________
Big Gerr _______ Server - WHS 2011: Sage 7.1.9 - 1 x HD Prime and 2 x HDHomeRun - Intel Atom D525 1.6 GHz, Acer Easystore, RAM 4 GB, 4 x 2TB hotswap drives, 1 x 2TB USB ext Clients: 2 x PC Clients, 1 x HD300, 2 x HD-200, 1 x HD-100 DEV Client: Win 7 Ultimate 64 bit - AMD 64 x2 6000+, Gigabyte GA-MA790GP-DS4H MB, RAM 4GB, HD OS:500GB, DATA:1 x 500GB, Pace RGN STB. |
#30
|
|||
|
|||
WHS sounds like it was hard-coded for the family of 4 to use to manage 3 family PCs and their photo collection and homework.
|
#31
|
|||
|
|||
Quote:
If easy networked PC backups or the ability to have folder-based (instead of drive-based) redundancy and easy storage expansion aren't critical needs for you, then stick with what you've got. If you already spent money on a NAS, and it provides you with the reliablity, redundancy, and easy storage expansion that you are looking for, then sitck with it. If you want WHS-like redundancy and easy storage expansion with XP/Vista, you're looking at a fairly expensive RAID controller to accomplish that. Without WHS, when I replaced a drive, I had to shutdown to install the new drive and copy the data off the old drive to the new drive, shutdown again to remove the old drive, and then reset the drive letter on the new drive to match the old drive, and reconfigure any network shares that were on the old drive, etc. All that manual work just to swap a drive to increase storage. With WHS storage pool, expansion is insanely easy...open the WHS Console, right click the drive to replace, remove it from the pool, and WHS then moves the data off of the drive and balances that data across the remaining drive(s) in the pool. When it's done clearing the drive, you shutdown once to take the old drive out, and put the new drive in. WHS will see the new drive and give you the option to add the new drive to the pool. Except the part where the machine is shut down to swap drives, in no other part of that process does any of the data in the pool become unavailable and I don't have to worry about moving any files, resetting drive letters, or reconfiguring any shares.
__________________
--Jason Server Hardware: GIGABYTE GA-EP45-UD3R, Intel Q9550 CPU 2.83GHz, 11GB RAM, 1xHDHR, 1xHVR1600, 1xHVR2250 29TB Server Storage: 1TB SSD (OS), 1TB (data), 2x6TB+2x10TB (22TB FlexRaid storage pool), 2x2TB (recordings), 1x750GB (VMs). Server Software: Win10 Pro x64 OS, SageTV 64bit v9.2.0.441, Java 1.8 u241, PlayOn, Comskip (Donator) v0.82.003, WampServer v2.5. Clients: 3xHD300s, 2xHD100, 2xPlaceshifters |
#32
|
||||
|
||||
WHS sounds very appealing to replace XP Pro for a SageTV computer except for one problem. I need to be able to recover the SageTV computer back to a point-in-time when the system was working trouble-free with a disk image.
I'm not sure this is possible to do it with WHS. For example, if an image was created of the C and D drives, from an imaging program from a boot disk, the WHS operating system would be shut down during the image creation process. However, when the system is recovered from the C and D image, using the boot CD, the C & D drives would be at a different point-in-time than the drive 'pool'. Would this cause problems? Dave |
#33
|
|||
|
|||
Quote:
To summarize, imaging the C: partition may allow you to recover if some program, driver, or Windows update causes an issue that makes your WHS machine unstable or unusable and you want to revert to an earlier time. But you can't image the entire primary system drive (C: and D: partitions together) and use that to restore WHS since the D: partition in the image would likely be out of sync with the data in the storage pool and result in data loss. To protect the whole drive from catastophic mechanical or electrical failure you would probably want to use RAID1 for the primary system drive. A little background on the WHS C:/D: partitions...when you install WHS, it sets up the system drive with two partitions. The first is a 20GB C: OS partition. The second is the D: data partition that takes up the remaining space on the drive. The D: partition is special and is the heart of the WHS Storage Pool. Some of the critical data it holds includes the WHS directory shares, tombstones, and some PC backups. All of the other drives assigned to the pool are managed internally by WHS and aren't supposed to be accessed directly by the end user. WHS works out which pool drive to put files on and the tombstones on the D: partition are basically shortcuts or pointers to where the files are physically located. Each time files are changed, moved, added, or deleted, the tombstones for those files are also updated, created, or deleted.
__________________
--Jason Server Hardware: GIGABYTE GA-EP45-UD3R, Intel Q9550 CPU 2.83GHz, 11GB RAM, 1xHDHR, 1xHVR1600, 1xHVR2250 29TB Server Storage: 1TB SSD (OS), 1TB (data), 2x6TB+2x10TB (22TB FlexRaid storage pool), 2x2TB (recordings), 1x750GB (VMs). Server Software: Win10 Pro x64 OS, SageTV 64bit v9.2.0.441, Java 1.8 u241, PlayOn, Comskip (Donator) v0.82.003, WampServer v2.5. Clients: 3xHD300s, 2xHD100, 2xPlaceshifters |
#34
|
||||
|
||||
I think the fact that it is not possible to take images of the system drive on WHS, and recover with those system drive images to a previous point-in-time, makes WHS an unacceptable operating system for SageTV for me. Any changes that break SageTV may not be able to be reversed back to a previous point-in-time, without having to painfully manually re-install everything and try to remember all the customizations and changes.
I think it would be a better solution to install SageTV on a separate Windows XP Pro system and have a WHS system only for video file storage. If there was a problem with SageTV, it could be recovered easily. If there was a problem with WHS, it would be much easier to re-install the operating system. If I am understanding correctly, if the WHS system drive fails, a re-install of WHS would fix the problem, and the files stored in the 'pool' would not be lost. If very little software is added to the base WHS installation and very few changes are made to the WHS file storage system, then it would be less likely the WHS system would fail from changes. The WHS file storage sever system drive could be covered by RAID 1 to protect it from a hard drive failure. The only downside to using two servers, XP and WHS as I see it, would be the purchase cost of an extra computer, and the electricity to run the extra computer 24 x 7. Dave |
#35
|
||||
|
||||
If all you're worried about is breaking SageTV then a copy of that directory somewhere else is all you need. robogeek's scripts help in that instance. It takes me less than an hour to install WHS from scratch. I've restored images that took longer than that. I haven't had a WHS system fail. I've had drives fail that were in the pool. I've also replaced the system drive in WHS because I was moving it to a different case and wanted a bigger drive. I've reinstalled WHS, loaded pp and patches, installed tuners and drivers, installed Sage and java and copied the backed up directory over the new install and was done. It's really not that difficult or that time consuming. Not enough to justify running another machine just for Sage. As drivers are updated for tuner cards you end up reinstalling them no matter what OS you are on. To each his own but you don't have to be able to image WHS to justify running it.
Gerry
__________________
Big Gerr _______ Server - WHS 2011: Sage 7.1.9 - 1 x HD Prime and 2 x HDHomeRun - Intel Atom D525 1.6 GHz, Acer Easystore, RAM 4 GB, 4 x 2TB hotswap drives, 1 x 2TB USB ext Clients: 2 x PC Clients, 1 x HD300, 2 x HD-200, 1 x HD-100 DEV Client: Win 7 Ultimate 64 bit - AMD 64 x2 6000+, Gigabyte GA-MA790GP-DS4H MB, RAM 4GB, HD OS:500GB, DATA:1 x 500GB, Pace RGN STB. |
#36
|
||||
|
||||
I now have my system swapped over to WHS from XP. Many thanks to those that assisted me along the way.
One question I have is about running this headless. This is something I saw over and over, but now that I am getting a little familiar with it, I wonder how that could be done and also make changes to the system? If I wanted to backup wiz.bin, Sage.properties, or the entire Sage directory on upgrades how would I do that headless? If I wanted to add comskip or other add ons how would I do that? Sage Property tweaks? Other than that I really like it. I guess I was expecting it to be more like Log Me In or PC Anywhere when I heard that you used a remote PC to run the headless system. |
#37
|
||||
|
||||
You should be able to use remote desktop to log into WHS. If you built the server yourself and installed WHS, then you can definitely do this. I backup my WHS SageTV directory using Cobian Backup (free).
WHS add-ons are installed through the regular WHS console and can be done from any computer with the WHS console installed. Comskip and other software that actually needs to be installed would require the remote desktop connection. While my WHS box is headless, I remote into it pretty regularly.
__________________
Server: XP, SuperMicro X9SAE-V, i7 3770T, Thermalright Archon SB-E, 32GB Corsair DDR3, 2 x IBM M1015, Corsair HX1000W PSU, CoolerMaster CM Storm Stryker case Storage: 2 x Addonics 5-in-3 3.5" bays, 1 x Addonics 4-in-1 2.5" bay, 24TB Client: Windows 7 64-bit, Foxconn G9657MA-8EKRS2H, Core2Duo E6600, Zalman CNPS7500, 2GB Corsair, 320GB, HIS ATI 4650, Antec Fusion Tuners: 2 x HD-PVR (HTTP tuning), 2 x HDHR, USB-UIRT Software: SageTV 7 |
#38
|
|||
|
|||
My safety net is Acronis TruImage - clone the system drive to another as a hot backup - done every week or two, and Acronis again to do drive imaging.
Never again will I reload Windows and Apps upon drive failure, or a virus infection. Instead, just boot the clone. WHS Pool seems to me to be simply JBOD, available no matter what OS you use. And JBOD is totally vulnerable to drive failure- so you have to have a disciplined shadow copy procedure - and I assert that shadow copy (software file copy) isn't practical for constantly changing GB files as in video. Last edited by stevech; 08-14-2009 at 08:28 PM. |
#39
|
||||
|
||||
You would turn on folder duplication, not shadow copy. It would make sure whatever folder is duplicated is duped to a different physical drive. That way one drive could fail and you would still have all of them on one or more physical drives. Not the same as JBOD and it's not shadow copy.
Gerry
__________________
Big Gerr _______ Server - WHS 2011: Sage 7.1.9 - 1 x HD Prime and 2 x HDHomeRun - Intel Atom D525 1.6 GHz, Acer Easystore, RAM 4 GB, 4 x 2TB hotswap drives, 1 x 2TB USB ext Clients: 2 x PC Clients, 1 x HD300, 2 x HD-200, 1 x HD-100 DEV Client: Win 7 Ultimate 64 bit - AMD 64 x2 6000+, Gigabyte GA-MA790GP-DS4H MB, RAM 4GB, HD OS:500GB, DATA:1 x 500GB, Pace RGN STB. |
#40
|
||||
|
||||
Quote:
Have you tested a recovery, or had to do a recovery with a failure? If so, did everything work up to the point-in-time of the clone or image? What happened to the video recordings after the recovery? Did WHS 'discover' the files, or did the recorded files exist, but WHS did not know about them. Or, were files recorded after the point-in-time recovery lost? According to a Microsoft forum, WHS disk imaging or cloning isn't supported and may result in data loss. Here is a link to that forum: http://social.microsoft.com/Forums/e...8-40fc6a0effaa If the WHS operating system can be recovered successfully from a clone or an image, then WHS would be a viable operating system to install SageTV, where I could have point-in-time recoveries. Otherwise, I would rather use Windows XP Pro, and build up a WHS system just for file storage. It would be a pain to have two systems for SageTV, but the WHS file server could be used to store other computer system backups too. Dave Last edited by davephan; 08-14-2009 at 10:28 PM. |
![]() |
Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests) | |
|
|
![]() |
||||
Thread | Thread Starter | Forum | Replies | Last Post |
Why WHS? | btrcp2000 | SageTV Software | 112 | 08-27-2009 07:43 PM |
A little help with WHS... | Jesse | General Discussion | 4 | 06-06-2009 08:08 PM |
To WHS or not?? | chrisc983 | Hardware Support | 18 | 05-08-2009 07:26 AM |
Question on WHS and SageTV Media Server V6.5 for WHS | Texas-Hansen | SageTV Software | 8 | 02-10-2009 07:55 PM |
What is WHS? | rdefino | SageTV Software | 2 | 06-29-2007 10:24 PM |