PC Magazine PC-based DVR reviews

[thatdude90210]

Originally posted by AJ Bertelson
Hi2u,

Whats your shacknews name? Mine is stgdz. I believe that was the PVR thread that I talked about sageTV.

It's "AlvinKlein", I don't post there as often as some of you guys who Shack all day.

[thatdude90210]

Originally posted by Opus4
Ironically, I got introduced to SageTV when a friend told me about it & said not to bother with it since it was so ugly.

Yeah, what's up with that? I thought the whole point of a PVR system is to allow you to watch favorite tv shows, not just to play with the software itself. I bought sage after only a couple of hours trying it. I thought "hey cool, now I won't miss any of my favorite tv shows."

[jominor]

Originally posted by thatdude90210
Yeah, what's up with that? I thought the whole point of a PVR system is to allow you to watch favorite tv shows, not just to play with the software itself. I bought sage after only a couple of hours trying it. I thought "hey cool, now I won't miss any of my favorite tv shows."

It's the "WOW" factor. BTV looks cool. It's no different than using myHTPC to watch movies. Once I found out how to use DVD covers, I spent a couple of hours adding them to myHTPC. Now, when I select "Movies" I get a kiosk-like effect.

Asthetics are as important as functionality.

[mlbdude]

Asthetics are as important as functionality.

While I would like be able to agree with that, this is one of the reasons I think BTV is in the state it is. Maybe both sides missed a happy medium, but you would want to think that functionality (since I am using this product for something) should count quite a bit more.

[Opus4]

Originally posted by jominor
Asthetics are as important as functionality.

While I won't disagree that looks are important to many people, I have to think that functionality has to win out in the end. A book with a pretty cover and no words on its pages doesn't serve much of a purpose. (No, I'm not suggesting that other products are 'empty books'... just using an extreme example of looks vs. function.)

Oh... I guess that book could be a journal with no entries yet...

- Andy

[jominor]

Originally posted by Opus4
While I won't disagree that looks are important to many people, I have to think that functionality has to win out in the end. A book with a pretty cover and no words on its pages doesn't serve much of a purpose. (No, I'm not suggesting that other products are 'empty books'... just using an extreme example of looks vs. function.)

Oh... I guess that book could be a journal with no entries yet...

- Andy

And to mldude...

As someone who develops software, I can tell you, customers like asthetically pleasing software.

Its part of usabilty. The most elegant, well designed piece of software with a crappy front-end will be known as that software with the crappy front-end.

Sure, you will get a few diehards who look beyond the gui, but you've just tossed out 90% of your userbase. You may not agree with the reviewers, but they echo what most people will do.

I've dealt with customers who complained when a button said "Save" instead of "Update". Or didn't like the steps to get to a particular function. Remember the complaints about the EPG? That's all presentation, folks, and it counts.


While you do watch TV, you also interact with software that interaction has to be pleasing. Like I said earlier, you will get one chance (or change ) to grab people. Most won't have Sage users around to show them cool features. It has to be easy, accessible, and look professional. Come for the appetizer, but say for the meal, eh?

I agree that if the product doesn't work that all the prettiness in the world won't save it, but if it is the best, but looks third-rate, people will believe third-rate(and Sage, IMO, is first-rate).

[Frunobulax]

I'd love to try SageTV with my Adaptec Videoh! DVD Media Center USB2, but...

[kny3twalker]

And to mldude...

As someone who develops software, I can tell you, customers like asthetically pleasing software.

Its part of usabilty. The most elegant, well designed piece of software with a crappy front-end will be known as that software with the crappy front-end.

Sure, you will get a few diehards who look beyond the gui, but you've just tossed out 90% of your userbase. You may not agree with the reviewers, but they echo what most people will do.

I've dealt with customers who complained when a button said "Save" instead of "Update". Or didn't like the steps to get to a particular function. Remember the complaints about the EPG? That's all presentation, folks, and it counts.


While you do watch TV, you also interact with software that interaction has to be pleasing. Like I said earlier, you will get one chance (or change ) to grab people. Most won't have Sage users around to show them cool features. It has to be easy, accessible, and look professional. Come for the appetizer, but say for the meal, eh?

I agree that if the product doesn't work that all the prettiness in the world won't save it, but if it is the best, but looks third-rate, people will believe third-rate(and Sage, IMO, is first-rate).


Sorry probably should not have copied the whole reply but
I waited to buy Sage until it was updated/ upgraded to beta 2
I have trialed v 1 since they wanted money for the guide updates and knew the software was rock solid in comparsion to SS but was not going to give in until the appearence was improved
I tried trialing SS back then also and the programs would just get me mad
it had so many issues I do not care to discuss
but one I hated was the windowed view and full screen view
what the hell is that? why would they make them separate and why was it when I used the full screen button on my remote
it crashed but anyways......


SageTV is now improving there UI and with studio the possibilities is endless

Well I just hope studio is released with version 2 since it is now feature locked.......... I am adding this to all posts now

[Ralphjb]

To reiterate my point - and say it succinctly - I like the SageTV v.1 GUI. Never ever had a problem with it. Never understood the criticism.

[jominor]

Originally posted by Ralphjb
To reiterate my point - and say it succinctly - I like the SageTV v.1 GUI. Never ever had a problem with it. Never understood the criticism.

It was unattractive.
It looked, frankly, amateurish.
It was hard to read.
It didn't provide enough feedback.
It had organizational issues.
It demanded a entire second release to fix it.

It wasn't unusable, but it needed some work.

[olyar15]

Originally posted by jominor
It was unattractive.
It looked, frankly, amateurish.

Beauty is in the eye of the beholder. I don't think it looks bad. I prefer, minimalist, simple interfaces that aren't cluttered with useless eye candy.

It was hard to read.

Not on my 50" plasma or my 56" Samsung DLP.

It didn't provide enough feedback.

Not sure what you are refering to. I always felt that I knew what Sage was doing or going to do.

It had organizational issues.

Yes, some of the menus could have been re-organized somewhat differently, but I have no problems watching my pre-recorded shows, or my shows in the library.

It demanded a entire second release to fix it.

It wasn't unusable, but it needed some work.

It did not demand an entire second release. Again, I find Sage quite functional, and more importantly, transparent. In other words, it doesn't get in the way of me watching TV.

[Lester Jacobs]

I find the interface in 1.4.10 to be very useable. In my household it also got a high WAF rating (very important). I will be upgrading to 2.0 not so much for the interface (although it looks very nice) but for the additional functionality over and above 1.4.10 that it offers. The fact that 2.0 comes with a nice interface is a bonus to my mind. The real meat is the extra functionality.

Cheers
Lester

[jominor]

Originally posted by olyar15
Beauty is in the eye of the beholder. I don't think it looks bad. I prefer, minimalist, simple interfaces that aren't cluttered with useless eye candy.

That's fine. Most people, Frey included I'll wager don't agree. In fact, from what I've read, the new GUI is the number one desired feature of v2.

Not on my 50" plasma or my 56" Samsung DLP.

Not on a PC either, but on standard TVs, which far outnumber 50" plasma screen, it is hard to see. Needing to spend $4000 to use the UI is not a selling point.

Not sure what you are refering to. I always felt that I knew what Sage was doing or going to do.

The hard to read buttons and fly-over that other people have said was hard to read.

Yes, some of the menus could have been re-organized somewhat differently, but I have no problems watching my pre-recorded shows, or my shows in the library.


It did not demand an entire second release. Again, I find Sage quite functional, and more importantly, transparent. In other words, it doesn't get in the way of me watching TV.

It does get in the way of watching tv, but it does inhibit using the program. Fortunately, the people in charge of Sage decided that they want to expand beyond the 50" plasma market and the small number who find no flaw in Sage's UI.

[kny3twalker]

hey I said I waited until they updated the UI
they earned me as a customer and furthermore a beta tester
so I was waiting for a while

[cmalinowski]

My guess is that if we all sit here and fight about whether the UI was usable in 1.4, the reviewers will find incredible fault with it. I agree that beauty is in the eye of the beholder, but there are usability studies that are generally done before software is released, and I would imagine that sage would have failed in any of those. I love my Sage (although 350 UI out without lockup would be nice).

I truly think that sage could have gotten away with an ugly UI if they had a good manual as noted early on in this thread.

I don't understand half of what is said around here and have to go try and figure it all out. I think that the list of "customizable" attributes in the properties file is great and adds flexibility, but is poorly documented.

Basically, know your weaknesses, and pay someone else who is strong in that area to compensate. And in the case of documentation, I think Frey/Sage is very weak.

I also think stability is an issue. I have never been worried about leaving my Tivo for a week or two while on vacation. Knowing full well that upon my return it would have all of my recordings. I have not accomplished that same level of comfort with Sage. I am sure that a portion of that is Windows, Hauppage, etc, but it still concerns me. Luckily, I haven't had to reboot my server too much (knock on wood), but my client/2nd recorder has to be rebooted constantly...

Just my thoughts. I am really a happy Sage customer with 1 SageTV, 2 SageClients, and 1 SageRecorder. I may be getting another SageRecorder and SageClient in the future, so I am firmly entrenched up to this point.

Chris

[Opus4]

I would attribute instability to Windows, the Hauppauge drivers, or some other system drivers. I regularly leave my SageTV system on for days/weeks at a time. The only time I've had to reboot was to update some drivers or other programs. The only time I had system instability problems was when I had a bad hard drive. I find SageTV more reliable than my old recording method (a pair of VCRs), since I can leave w/o having to worry about the tapes filling up or one of my favorite shows changing its airing time. I guess I would fall into the "fully satisfied" category.

- Andy

[jominor]

Originally posted by Opus4
I would attribute instability to Windows, the Hauppauge drivers, or some other system drivers. I regularly leave my SageTV system on for days/weeks at a time. The only time I've had to reboot was to update some drivers or other programs. The only time I had system instability problems was when I had a bad hard drive. I find SageTV more reliable than my old recording method (a pair of VCRs), since I can leave w/o having to worry about the tapes filling up or one of my favorite shows changing its airing time. I guess I would fall into the "fully satisfied" category.

- Andy

The server is pretty stable, even though I currently find the beta less stable than 1.4. However, the client is unstable compared to the server version, at least IMO.

I'm not quite convinced that the problems are in Windows or even Hauppage because 1.4 ran for several weeks at a time with no issues.

[mlbdude]

I certainly hope you guys with issues with the Client are submitting bug reports for them. As far as I know there are no open issues with it being worked on. I would hate for this to pop-up for me later on because it got overlooked.

[Cayars]

I know I submitted about 20 client issues thus far.

Carlo

[jominor]

Originally posted by mlbdude
I certainly hope you guys with issues with the Client are submitting bug reports for them. As far as I know there are no open issues with it being worked on. I would hate for this to pop-up for me later on because it got overlooked.

For me, I can't reproduce the problems. At the risk of beating the horse, I developer software. If I can't get a reproduce it, I don't want to post it.

I had one case where using ctrl+f to fast forward locked it up.
I had another where just navigating the menus spiked the CPU to 100%, but when I shutdown, the screen wouldn't display the video, only black. However, I haven't been able to reproduce the problem.

I haven't had these issues with the server version, so I'm just keeping my eyes open.

Also, in all honesty, I don't use the client(on my PC) as much. However, my futures plan is the move my server into my den with my PC and put a small-form factor client upstairs. But that's in the future.