The future of Sagetv?

[mistergq]

Originally Posted by stanger89

The problem is the internet "culture". These days any comment, on any new feature or date, no matter how it's intended, is taken by the "internet" as a "promise", and failure to live up to that is seen as betrayal.

Hey, this was more than a promise!

Originally Posted by Richard Kuo / Chief Technology Officer

Will SnapStream be integrating Beyond TV and Beyond Media?

The answer to this question is a definite yes!

Snapstream's Blog Promising Integration 7/29/2005

Overall I agree though. if I software developer says they are trying develop a new feature, and they cannot get the feature to work problem free or just right, and the developer abandon its, the internet goes into an uproar. You will also get people saying the software is deadline because they are not making new changes.

[flavius]

He no longer works there. He's making his new changes somewhere else now.

[phareous]

I don't remember names... but when the person who developed beyond media left, it all went down hill. No major new features... beyond media abandoned, firefly (software) abandoned, no new products, etc.

[mistergq]

Originally Posted by flavius

He no longer works there. He's making his new changes somewhere else now.

He has not been there for years. But the quote was 2005 and made by the CTO. Further, there was never a retraction to it or a legitimate mea culpa. Not that we are owed a mea culpa, but it would have been nice.

In fairness, they were giving refunds for Beyond Media, which I never took advantage of.

[xred]

I think Sage has a number of challenges they willl be facing over the next year or two. In no particular order;

- The Extender market it getting more competitive. Looking at the CES coverage and all the set boxes / extenders / media players flooding the market, I have to wonder how Sage plans to compete in the short term against all the new functionality flooding the market, much less an extender price point that looks like it is quickly headed towards $99. I'm not sure if they do enough volume in extender sales that they can compete in terms of getting their pricing down to be competitive. Alternatively they could revert to the strategy they used with the Hauppauge MVP where they identify extenders made by other comanies and have Sage to those devices. The D-link Boxee and Popcorn Hour devices spring to mind if they could be made to work.

- The cable satellite companies are or will be giving DVR technology away or at extremely low up front cost. With cable companies killing their analog signals and satellite companies pushing all their users to MPEG-4 based receivers the move to having DVR functionality on your cable provided STB will really swing in to high gear. DVR and placeshifting functionality are standard offerings on these platforms and the providers will make these available to keep their revenue "in system" as opposed to going to third parties like Tivo or Sling (or Sage). Sage offers the benefit of being an all in one media networked extender / DVR / Placeshifter solution, but the majority of users will settle on 2-3 device setup (Cableco STB, Media Extender, DVD/BD player)

- The inevitable consolidation that will follow the flood of products being launched this year. Expect to see a series of acquisitions, mergers, and flat out closures in 2011-2012. It will make sense for extender manufacturers like Syabas or Hauppauge to acquire / merge with companies like Sage to offer a complete system. This would be especially true if the FCC goes ahead with its plan to open the STB market to third parties.

[stanger89]

Originally Posted by xred

...third parties like Tivo or Sling (or Sage).

Sling isn't 3rd party to Dish Network And they're positioning themselves as an OEM now for other providers as well.

Sage offers the benefit of being an all in one media networked extender / DVR / Placeshifter solution, but the majority of users will settle on 2-3 device setup (Cableco STB, Media Extender, DVD/BD player)

- The inevitable consolidation that will follow the flood of products being launched this year. Expect to see a series of acquisitions, mergers, and flat out closures in 2011-2012. It will make sense for extender manufacturers like Syabas or Hauppauge to acquire / merge with companies like Sage to offer a complete system. This would be especially true if the FCC goes ahead with its plan to open the STB market to third parties.

You've got some interesting points there. I stick with Sage for one primary reason, the DVR functionality. There's no other complete solution for whole-house DVR-ing. But if Dish (for example) rolls out their Sling loaded DVR with "extenders" and it proves to be more reliable and simple than Sage, or if that whole "RVU" alliance things pans out and we have standard multi-room DVR-ing, that's going to make it hard to stay.

I don't think there's much Sage can really do on the PVR front, they're limited by technology there. So I think you've got a good point that they need to focus heavilly on media. We're fast approaching the point (maybe already there) that the way you stand out is to be a media player with excellent TV/DVR functionality vs Sage's historical PVR with decent to passable media support.

[Brent]

Not sure I agree with "extender market is getting more competitive" comment. Unless there is a big MC extender announcement, there is no viable HTPC extender out there other than the HD200 for SageTV.

Although that could change if we do see one or more good, MC extenders at CES...

[stanger89]

I took "extender" to mean media player.

[GT500Shlby]

What I would like to see is the ability to have a Server in my home that can get at least 4 HDTV streams from my Digital Cable Provider where I can have a RAID solution for video storage, and the ability to watch live-TV, Recorded TV, stored videos, music, etc and play it on all of my televisions in FULL HD.

I have a TiVo currently and it's an infernal POS. It's only dual tuner. The upfront cost ($250) plus the monthly service fee ($12.95) plus the advertisements and the extra software I have to purchase ($80) to download videos onto my Mac and to add insult to injury you need to purchase a specific external hard-drive with a max of 1TB which is woefully overpriced at ($199). Absolutely Pathetic. Beyond Pathetic. Absurd.

Then you have Moxi. For a higher upfront cost ($999) I can get a 3 tuner Moxi DVR and two Moxi-Mates which as of very recently allow live-TV as well as access to the DVR's storage. As well, I can add 6.5TB of any eSATA storage as long as the speed and resiliency meet up to DVR standards (not hard).

But then FCC says CableCard is a failure (gee, I wonder?!?) Considering the people at CableLabs are IDIOTS.

Anyway - we need a source of HDTV channels like ABC, NBC, FOX, CBS, USA, FOODTV, DISCOVERY, etc... without all the BS surrounding cable tv providers.

[xred]

Originally Posted by Brent

Not sure I agree with "extender market is getting more competitive" comment. Unless there is a big MC extender announcement, there is no viable HTPC extender out there other than the HD200 for SageTV.

Although that could change if we do see one or more good, MC extenders at CES...

By extender I mean media extender as opposed to specifically HTPC extender. This is especially important as network / online content playback is where Sage falls down, especially in its default UI.

[Brent]

Originally Posted by xred

By extender I mean media extender as opposed to specifically HTPC extender. This is especially important as network / online content playback is where Sage falls down, especially in its default UI.

To me a media player is a mostly useless device. Perhaps a Roku or something like that would be a nice novelty in the home, but a true PVR-based extender that also does online video (PlayOn on the HD200 comes to mind) has a ton more value. Watch for Hulu to cost us much more soon - then it will not be a great thing to have imo.

Spruce up the UI of the HD200 (er SageTV) and I'd be happy. Yes, I'd like to see a HD250 or HD Theater Pro, but I still see the HD200 as the best available today - better than the C200 or the poopbox or the WDTV etc etc.

That's just my opinion of course.

[cncb]

I agree that the main thing that Sage has going for it relative to all the new media extenders is excellent PVR support. If they can add direct internet streaming support like Netflix, internet radio, etc. (not through Playon which has been unreliable for me) they will really have something. I'm really hoping for some announcements soon...

[Skirge01]

Originally Posted by GT500Shlby

What I would like to see is the ability to have a Server in my home that can get at least 4 HDTV streams from my Digital Cable Provider where I can have a RAID solution for video storage, and the ability to watch live-TV, Recorded TV, stored videos, music, etc and play it on all of my televisions in FULL HD.

My WHS/SageTV setup does most of that today. I have 2 streams from DirecTV (via HD-PVRs) and 4 streams from OTA (via HDHRs), but there's no reason I couldn't go to 4 streams from DirecTV. I rarely have unresolved conflicts and nobody watches live TV anymore, except for sports. I've chosen not to use RAID under WHS for a variety of reasons, but others have implemented it.

[cncb]

Originally Posted by Brent

better than the C200 or the poopbox or the WDTV etc etc.

Intentional or typo ?

[xred]

Originally Posted by Brent

To me a media player is a mostly useless device. Perhaps a Roku or something like that would be a nice novelty in the home, but a true PVR-based extender that also does online video (PlayOn on the HD200 comes to mind) has a ton more value. Watch for Hulu to cost us much more soon - then it will not be a great thing to have imo.

In the short term I agree that users need a way to view both online content along side their PVR content obtained from TV networks. Sage is undoubtedly a great PVR solution, but as mentioned above I think DVR functionality is about to become really commodotized due to the forced adoption of STB's and the low barrier to entry on cableco provided DVR functionality.

In my opinion Sage is NOT a robust solution for viewing online content, even with the PlayOn plugin. Boxee and Popcorn Hour do a much much better job of this, and I believe that at least in the short term users will favour a "2 box" solution.

In long term _all_ media is moving online and the importance of PVR functionality will fade. PVRs are a technical solution to the problem that is scheduled broadcasting.

The ability to play on demand content stored online is the future of media consumption. The idea that you would need to have these old "parallel" networks made up of dedicated tuner cards, satellites in space and billions of dedicated set top boxes is ridiculous. The browser is the future of media assuming the two (not insignificant) technical barriers of home internet speeds and conditional access online are resolved.

Once those issues are solved and the content providers can distribute and monetize their content while basically bypassing the dedicated TV networks you'll see an explosion of online content. Online / On demand will supplant scheduled broadcasts as the preferred way to view content.

Originally Posted by Brent

Spruce up the UI of the HD200 (er SageTV) and I'd be happy. Yes, I'd like to see a HD250 or HD Theater Pro, but I still see the HD200 as the best available today - better than the C200 or the poopbox or the WDTV etc etc.

I don't believe the advantage of the HD200 is the box itself, but the Sage software back end that powers it. In fact if the HD200 remains @ $200 a pop I think it will start become a detriment to Sage as other boxes will certainly be available for much less, hence my original suggestion that if Sage cannot find a way to match the pricing / volume of other extenders that should work with those other companies to ensure Sage can run on those platforms. That way you can buy your $99 extender online and Sage would still collect the $30 license per seat required to host these extenders.

[Skirge01]

Originally Posted by xred

In long term _all_ media is moving online and the importance of PVR functionality will fade. PVRs are a technical solution to the problem that is scheduled broadcasting.

The ability to play on demand content stored online is the future of media consumption. The idea that you would need to have these old "parallel" networks made up of dedicated tuner cards, satellites in space and billions of dedicated set top boxes is ridiculous. The browser is the future of media assuming the two (not insignificant) technical barriers of home internet speeds and conditional access online are resolved.

Broadcast TV as we know it today is not going anywhere for a very long time, so this doesn't concern me at all. The networks will fight this just as much (if not more than) the RIAA has been fighting the online music model.

[Brent]

I've been reading about broadcast & CATV "going away" every since I began the HTPC thing before 2004. I know it is eventually going that way (don't have to like that fact really) but I don't see it happening in the next five years - probably not even the next ten.

Before that happens, the media companies will have to screw up online video and internet distribution a whole bunch more.

[Brent]

Originally Posted by xred

In my opinion Sage is NOT a robust solution for viewing online content, even with the PlayOn plugin. Boxee and Popcorn Hour do a much much better job of this, and I believe that at least in the short term users will favour a "2 box" solution.

I've used both Boxee and PCH in the past six months on a regular basis and I have to say I don't really like the way either do it. Boxee's new beta UI is better tho.

What I was attempting to say was that SageTV needs to "spruce up" their UI to something that makes browsing and accessing that online content easier (among many other things). I've had very good luck with the PlayOn solution (using EvilPenguin's add-on) inside of the HD200 and SageTV's existing interface so that has formed my opinion somewhat I guess.

Tell me how you see those two doing a better job - I'm just wanting to understand what makes them better with the online stuff

[profit]

I would like to see more communication from Sage.

My priorities are:
1) Stability

Nothing else matters. After using Sage HD200's for a year the mix of problems were imho 50% Sage and 50% User. There is a learning curve associated with this system.

The best investments I made:
1) powerful server (dual core, 4GB memory, 2 raids for disk protection)
2) have the cable company come out and boost the signal and replace some splitters causing signal problems
3) wire up the extenders and get off wireless

The netflix / playon plugin works ok - I'd like to see improvements but it works good enough.

Sage helped change the way I interface with my media and that is what I value. Is $200 too much for a media extender? Not in my opinion. Should they charge an annual license fee? Probably. Do I appreciate the fact that when the family eats dinner we can access our music library and photo slide shows from the TV remote? Absolutely.

After 1 year, I'm finally ready to give up the cable company DVR's. Can you believe I pay Time Warner close to $20 month for that DVR system? I didn't flinch in buying the HD200's or licensing Sage because I knew I could eliminate other expenses. I don't see the cable company giving up that lucrative revenue stream anytime soon as other users mentioned.

In summary, more communication around a roadmap and continue with the focus on stability.

My $.02...

[wayner]

Originally Posted by xred

PVRs are a technical solution to the problem that is scheduled broadcasting.

I believe they are more than that. They get rid of commercials - that is hard to do with online streaming, and the give you full ownership of all content that is on your hardware (at least Sage does). When you depend on online services and they no longer have the Dora the Explorer episode that your 5 year old daughter wants to watch then you are screwed.

@xred - Your location says you are from Toronto - how do you watch online content? Do you use a VPN?