The future of Sagetv?

[reggie14]

Originally Posted by Brent

To me a media player is a mostly useless device. Perhaps a Roku or something like that would be a nice novelty in the home, but a true PVR-based extender that also does online video (PlayOn on the HD200 comes to mind) has a ton more value. Watch for Hulu to cost us much more soon - then it will not be a great thing to have imo.

A media player isn't as useful to us, since we're all running a PC-DVR. But, most people aren't running a PC-DVR, and aren't going to want to. But, these people still have music on their computers, many have videos, and probably most would love to have access to online video. To these people, a media player is very useful, especially if it connects to online video services that people want to use.

I have several friends that have either used Windows Media Center or various media players to play music or watch videos on their TV. Only a very small number, two to be precise, actually desired the ability to record or watch TV using that system. Several were using media streamers because they didn't have any form of TV service at all, and didn't really care to either.

Originally Posted by Brent

Spruce up the UI of the HD200 (er SageTV) and I'd be happy. Yes, I'd like to see a HD250 or HD Theater Pro, but I still see the HD200 as the best available today - better than the C200 or the poopbox or the WDTV etc etc.

Do you mean in general, or for your purposes? To me it seems like we already live in a "multi-box world", even with SageTV. The PlayOn plugin is pretty cool, and Sage's blu-ray support on the extenders is nice too, but in my mind neither is a terribly good substitute for things that can play Netflix HD, or play blu-rays back with menus, respectively. So, in my case I stopped trying to get PlayOn to work reliably, and I bought a BD-P1600 player to take care of both Netflix and blu-rays.

So, that makes me start thinking that the main thing keeping me to Sage is the multi-room DVR feature. I think I saw another person post basically the same thing. If someone came out with a nice multi-room DVR system that didn't involve baby sitting an HD-PVR or STBs, I'd be pretty tempted to get it. Sure, I'd have to buy another box (or use my existing H200) to act as a media player for my music and video collection, but I don't think that would bother me that much. I already switch back and forth between Sage and my BD-P1600 pretty regularly to watch Netflix. It's not so bad (especially with my new Harmony One remote ).

There are limitations with everyone. Sage can do things that other devices and software can't do, and vice versa. It seems like what ends up being the "best" today is largely dependent on what features are actually important to you. I've never used the C200 like you have, but I would have guessed that it would make a very nice media player for people that don't want/need DVR extender functionality- probably better than the HD200 (though it is significantly more expensive). And I think it starts looking even more attractive if/when they backport Popbox feature's to it, mainly Netflix.

[stanger89]

Originally Posted by xred

In the short term I agree that users need a way to view both online content along side their PVR content obtained from TV networks. Sage is undoubtedly a great PVR solution, but as mentioned above I think DVR functionality is about to become really commodotized due to the forced adoption of STB's and the low barrier to entry on cableco provided DVR functionality.

Most people are already there, only a small minority seek out "better" solutions from 3rd parties, and only a small minority of them end up with PC based solutions vs Tivos and the like.

I think most people with PC systems will not be happy going back to provider DVRs and their significant limitations. I just don't think using STBs is going to have a huge impact on the PC DVR market as we're already the ones most willing to go through trouble for freedom.

Originally Posted by wayner

I believe they are more than that. They get rid of commercials - that is hard to do with online streaming, and the give you full ownership of all content that is on your hardware (at least Sage does). When you depend on online services and they no longer have the Dora the Explorer episode that your 5 year old daughter wants to watch then you are screwed.

I remember having a similar discussion in the HD media fora at AVS. Today we value the "ownership" of content, but why is that? IMO the reason it's valuable for us to "own" content is so that we have the freedom to use it on a whim. That reason, and little more (aside from a small minority of "collectors"). Today, content we don't "own", ie have a personal copy of, is not guaranteed to be accessible quickly or at all, at any given time. If you want to watch <insert favorite obscure movie> tonight, odds are it won't be on TV, probably won't be streamable instantly, and at best will require a trip to the rental store (netflix will take a day or two to get it to you). So we buy these medias so we can pop it in the player or fire it up at a whim.

But I pose this question to you, what happens the the value of "ownership" of media (especially movies and TV) when it's "all" available instantly at the press of a button? When you can do what a lot of us here do, fire up any movie instantly with nothing but a remote, but without having to buy anything?

If you can instantly watch anything whenever, in excellent quality, what's the point of "owning" it?

There are still technical barriers, streaming BD quality isn't there yet, and online collections aren't "complete", but if I could instantly stream any movie on Blu-ray, in Blu-ray quality from Netflix (or some other service), I wouldn't buy BDs at all.

If I could stream any show I watch, I wouldn't have Dish, and I wouldn't record TV.

[brainbone]

Originally Posted by reggie14

So, that makes me start thinking that the main thing keeping me to Sage is the multi-room DVR feature. I think I saw another person post basically the same thing. If someone came out with a nice multi-room DVR system that didn't involve baby sitting an HD-PVR or STBs, I'd be pretty tempted to get it.

If Boxee shapes up (seems to be happening), and the Boxee/Dlink box works well (and comes in a less ugly form), all that's missing is an interface to SageTV (or another DVR server) for scheduling and watching recordings -- that, or SageTV integrate Boxee in their next extender.

Easy access to online content (Hulu, netflix, etc.) is what SageTV is sorely missing -- and I don't think they'll ever be able to get easy/legal/relatively hack-free access to the content without partnering with someone that already has accomplished it.

[wayner]

Originally Posted by stanger89

But I pose this question to you, what happens the the value of "ownership" of media (especially movies and TV) when it's "all" available instantly at the press of a button? When you can do what a lot of us here do, fire up any movie instantly with nothing but a remote, but without having to buy anything?

If you can instantly watch anything whenever, in excellent quality, what's the point of "owning" it?

In that ideal world then streaming would be pretty much OK, except for situations where you can't always have online access like on an airplane. And personally I don't trust that the content will not disappear at some point in the future because of a change in licensing agreements or whatever. Look at the Amazon Kindle 1984 fiasco.

But there are lots of barriers to this happening today, including high wireless rates that can make it very expensive to stream media, especially if you are not in your home country.

Another major issue is geographic rights. I live in Canada and get access to all major OTA US networks and we also get access to most cable channels, or at least the better content from those channels (i.e. HBO series, Mad Men, etc.). But pretty much none of the online streaming sites like Hulu work if your IP is not in the US. There are some Canadian web sites that offer some of this content but very little.

So I can legally record whatever I want using Sage but I cannot watch very much, if any, of this content via straming web services. And it is not clear when that will change.

We also have very high wireless rates in Canada so watching TVs or Movies on your iPhone or Blackberry would cost a lot of money.

[Fuzzy]

Originally Posted by reggie14

Do you mean in general, or for your purposes? To me it seems like we already live in a "multi-box world", even with SageTV. The PlayOn plugin is pretty cool, and Sage's blu-ray support on the extenders is nice too, but in my mind neither is a terribly good substitute for things that can play Netflix HD, or play blu-rays back with menus, respectively. So, in my case I stopped trying to get PlayOn to work reliably, and I bought a BD-P1600 player to take care of both Netflix and blu-rays.

So, that makes me start thinking that the main thing keeping me to Sage is the multi-room DVR feature. I think I saw another person post basically the same thing. If someone came out with a nice multi-room DVR system that didn't involve baby sitting an HD-PVR or STBs, I'd be pretty tempted to get it. Sure, I'd have to buy another box (or use my existing H200) to act as a media player for my music and video collection, but I don't think that would bother me that much. I already switch back and forth between Sage and my BD-P1600 pretty regularly to watch Netflix. It's not so bad (especially with my new Harmony One remote ).

Personally, its this wide open options that keep me on a server/client. I do get everything in a single box (and better yet, that 'box' is in another room). I have Full quality Hulu (via Hulu Desktop), top tier PVR capabilities (SageTV) complete with remote configuration/monitoring over the internet and/or via handheld devices, Full Featured Blu-Ray playback (Direct from disc OR ripped to Hard-Drive - Via Arcsoft TMT3), All tied together into a seamless experience via a single remote into Girder. I can even, when I'm feeling like it, play some PC Games (in Stereoscopic 3D, if I'm feeling it). This is all in my one-box solution. The only time my TV/AVR is switched sources is when my wife is using the Wii Fit.

[eric3a]

The only time my TV/AVR is switched sources is when my wife is using the Wii Fit.

Watching my wife exercise is one of my favorite programs. She doesn't seem to be responding to remote control inputs though. I probably haven't setup Girder correctly.


Eric

[toony]

I just wish the powers that be would give us some indication of what's coming and when... of course without telling the competition too much.

I'm mostly concerned with is DTS decoding and full Bluray support. It's quite frustrating to not have any indication of any updates for sagetv or the extenders.

I'm sure they are all working hard but a little update would be nice.

[wayner]

Originally Posted by toony

I just wish the powers that be would give us some indication of what's coming and when... of course without telling the competition too much.

Does the competition really matter? The way I see it the competition is Windows Media Center and MythTV. Neither of those are going to respond to what Sage does. If MS cared about keeping up with Sage they would directly support the HD-PVR and MythTV is Open Source so it doesn't have a profit motive.

If you broaden your scope you could say the competition is PVRs from TiVo, cable companies and satellite companies. But once again, I don't think they particularly care what Sage does.

[toony]

Originally Posted by wayner

. But once again, I don't think they particularly care what Sage does.

You are prob right, I only said that part for those that may think that the reason they are being tight lipped is due to competition.

Whether the comp is concerned about what Sage does is not really the point here. I just was saying I think it would be nice to have some idea of what is going on.

[Fuzzy]

They are just quite because they made the mistake in the past of saying where they are intending to go with the software, which the peoples of the internet took as a promise. I fully understand their silence.

[reggie14]

Originally Posted by Fuzzy

They are just quite because they made the mistake in the past of saying where they are intending to go with the software, which the peoples of the internet took as a promise. I fully understand their silence.

Did I miss something? This is commonly cited as the reason Sage is so tight-lipped about about new features, but I don't remember any time when Sage actually got a significant amount of criticism over an announced, but never delivered, feature.

I kind of think the powers that be can be a bit thin-skinned at times. Really, the only people talking about Sage are on these forums, and public opinion in overwhelmingly in favor of Sage. The big example of an announced feature that never came to be was Hulu support, and people seemed to completely understand that was a Hulu issue. There were some other smaller features that Sage sort of promised. I think they got a little heat on those things, but I think that was just as much because they never updated their initial announcement to say they ran into problems.

So again, did I miss something? That's a serious question. Maybe Sage did a lot of criticism over something and I just don't remember it.

[GKusnick]

Originally Posted by reggie14

So again, did I miss something? That's a serious question. Maybe Sage did a lot of criticism over something and I just don't remember it.

Were you not around for the HD100 debacle? They announced the product at a trade show, with an estimated release date a few months away. Then (as I recall it) the deal with their hardware supplier fell through and they had to start product development all over again with a new supplier, delaying the eventual release by nearly a year. Meanwhile they got reamed daily on the forums for selling vaporware, being "dishonest" with the user community about their product plans, etc, etc.

I may be misremembering some of the details, but there was an enormous brouhaha and much bad feeling among the users over the fact that they missed an announced release date due to circumstances that were largely beyond their control.

So that's why they don't preannounce products or features anymore until they're actually ready for beta testing.

[reggie14]

Originally Posted by GKusnick

Were you not around for the HD100 debacle? They announced the product at a trade show, with an estimated release date a few months away.

Really? Is that what people are referring to? OK, that would make more sense. I really don't remember any of that. Even going back through old posts isn't jogging my memory. I don't think I checked the forums that often back then, but I'm sure I must have seen those posts.

Thanks for the background.

Update: I'm even finding some references to the HD100 being late in my posts from 2007! I've never really had that great of memory though.

[Fuzzy]

Originally Posted by reggie14

Update: I'm even finding some references to the HD100 being late in my posts from 2007! I've never really had that great of memory though.

Luckily, Sage has a better memory.. ;-)

[stanger89]

Originally Posted by reggie14

Did I miss something? This is commonly cited as the reason Sage is so tight-lipped about about new features, but I don't remember any time when Sage actually got a significant amount of criticism over an announced, but never delivered, feature.

I was thinking more along the lines of a thing called Studio, and a Version 3 that never happened.

[reggie14]

I'm desperately trying to jog my memory, to no avail. So, please correct me if I'm wrong, because I'm just going off of posts I made in 2007 (and who knows if I was even right then).

But, the HD100 debacle, IMHO, is just illustrates a point I was trying to make above. From what I understand, Sage demoed an HD extender at CES 2007 and alluded to a Q2 release date. I don't believe Sage made any more statements regarding the HD extender until late September 2007. That's a long time to go without an update.

I suspect people were reacting just as much, if not more, to the lack of updates on the HD extender as they were Sage missing the release date. As I said, I think Sage has an overwhelmingly supportive community, and some sort of update would have gone a long way toward quieting complaints had it come in May or June instead of late September.

We often say Sage has been tight-lipped on future products, but that's not completely true. Sage has often "leaked" products well before their release. Sage v2, Studio, MVP support, the UltraHD preconfigured server, the HD extender, server-on-a-stick, Hulu support, etc., were all pseudo-announced well before their release (for the ones that were released). In each of those cases, a long time past before there was any update on progress, causing people to start getting worried. I suspect we'll see the same thing with Sage v7 (it's sort of been going on in the "It seems awfully quiet" thread). We probably would have already heard all kinds of complaints about server-on-a-stick disappearing by now, except that I don't think anyone is really that excited about it.

I'm no PR person, but if Sage doesn't like people complaining about unreleased products and unfinished promises, it seems like it would be pretty effective to provide more updates, rather than less.

[reggie14]

Originally Posted by stanger89

I was thinking more along the lines of a thing called Studio, and a Version 3 that never happened.

Well, version 3 happened, they just decided to call it 4. Sage 4.0 was released a couple weeks after the last Sage 3.0 beta.

Sage v3 was another example of a "tease". It was announced in January 2005 with a projected Spring release, whereas the beta didn't even start until July. I really don't remember one way or the other, but I'd be surprised if Sage has made any posts about v3 progress during those 6 months.

I vaguely remember Studio being horribly late. But, I didn't really follow that because I was never interested in using Studio and I didn't imagine things like SageMC coming out of it.

[Brent]

You guys are killin' me. Seriously. We'll know about what comes next as soon as it makes sense for the SageTV guys to do so. In the meantime watch some TV, add some hard drive space to your HTPC server, try some add-ons. This is not something to stress about.

[reggie14]

Originally Posted by Brent

You guys are killin' me. Seriously.

In spite of my posts, I really don't care if Sage wants to be so secretive at times. I just think the general justification given for the secrecy is sort of bogus. I think Sage could easily get away with giving more of their product plans away if they wanted to. And I think the problems they've run into in the past have been the result of giving teasers way ahead of time allowed by half-years of silence.

[GKusnick]

Originally Posted by reggie14

I'm no PR person, but if Sage doesn't like people complaining about unreleased products and unfinished promises, it seems like it would be pretty effective to provide more updates, rather than less.

What information could these additional updates possibly contain, other than a generic "we're still working on it" or "it'll be ready when it's ready"? If they don't have a reasonably firm release date or feature set to announce, what do they gain from making their interim guesswork public? How would that help to quell complaints about missed dates and unfulfilled promises?

On top of that, if there's a hardware partner involved, they may be legally obligated to keep mum about those negotiations until feature sets and production schedules have been finalized.

Personally, I'm glad they don't have a PR flack on staff posting cheerful monthly "updates" that are all fluff and no content.